View Poll Results: Who should start at PG Hill or DC?

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  • I think Hill should start playing almost all minutes at point next to Paul

    36 25.53%
  • I think it will be fine the way it is, DC is fine, and Hill excels as a combo guard off the bench

    105 74.47%
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Thread: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

  1. #1
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    First this isn't to suggest DC is or isn't doing his job. This is not suggesting George Hill isn't doing his job. It's too early anyways!!

    What I am asking if their rolls could be or should be changed for the betterment of the team? I think if they did swap rolls it is important to note that it'd be virtually impossible to be a sort of demotion for DC. I think you're going to have a guard coming off the bench playing heavy minutes. So it's not as if you'd be sending a message to DC, "Hey you failed."

    The emphasis is important. I think if we all look at this the right way we'll get a better answer to the question. For instance, a good question to ask ourselves as we discuss this is,

    "Would Darren Collison be much more effective playing with the second unit where he wouldn't be having to defend starting two guards/point guards?"

    "Can DC play off the bench next to Lance Stephenson?"

    "Would George Hill play better in the starting unit?"

    "Will the team improve if the swapped rolls?"

    Again, I know it's too early to tell what kind of production we're going to get from players all season, but I figured as we're starting to get a feel of the players that we could start the discussion and let it evolve.

    This what leads me to ask in the first place: defensively George Hill is just far superior to DC. We'd have the best defensive frontcourt in the NBA. Easily. On top of this, it might actually be helpful for DC as well! Off the bench DC would have the opportunity instead of defending guards that can really just beat him up= he is playing against bench players, and then with the second unit DC would be able to attack as much as he wanted to on offense or try to work on developing PnR game with Tyler.

    Also, in doing a little research I found out that a lot of Spurs fans that either A. thought George Hill would take over the PG position over Tony Parker this season, or B. George Hill eventually would start on down the line, just not immediately. So as many on this board have high opinions of Tony Parker, keep in mind that Spurs fans were asking if Hill should start of Tony Parker, someone who is superior to Darren Collison.

    So we'll let this discussion evolve over the season and see how it plays out.

    My quick thoughts on the subject:

    * From sort of a technical aspect I think it can happen. Just so we don't get derailed by, "But Hill plays 2 guard too, so he has to on the bench to be backup 2 guard." I don't see any reason why DC couldn't do the same, and DC might just excel in that role.

    * There is no question the team as a defensive unit would improve. Hill can flat out play D much better than I remember him ever playing

    *The style of offense that the Pacers would play would have to evolve I think, but I don't think there is a question that you can start a "combo guard" at two, or someone who plays like Hill at PG. Many teams to do that, so I wonder if it would be the right thing to do.

    *Hill would be playing probably 35 minutes a night at PG instead of 30 swapping between PG/SG

    *DC would play 25-30 playing off guard on offense when Lance was in the game.
    Last edited by mattie; 01-03-2012 at 06:50 AM.

  2. #2
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    No.

    DC = point guard
    GH = guard who can point a little bit.

    -eof-

    I did not vote because I refuse to say GH excels, he's useful, Dwade excels.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  4. #3
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Rude.
    Last edited by mattie; 01-03-2012 at 08:59 AM. Reason: I'd argue my response is at least on some level equivalent to his. but. eh.

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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Collison is a much better point guard than George Hill, he's our best plus minus guy so far, and has been passing far better than we've seen since he's been here , plus his defense has actually been quite good this year.

    Hill is pretty clearly a SG who can handle the ball a bit.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    There's a debate?

    I'm no fan of DC, but he's by far the best PG for us so far. In fact, I think playing George Hill as the main backup PG is hurting our second unit. I'm a huge fan of Hill, but not of his PG abilities.

    I'd like to see Price get a shot at being the main backup, with Hill playing SG.

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  9. #6
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    There's a debate?

    I'm no fan of DC, but he's by far the best PG for us so far. In fact, I think playing George Hill as the main backup PG is hurting our second unit. I'm a huge fan of Hill, but not of his PG abilities.

    I'd like to see Price get a shot at being the main backup, with Hill playing SG.
    It should be asked. I don't know if people are asking themselves or not, but yes it absolutely should be a question that needs to be answered at some point.

    I'm motivated to ask, because if the team could efficiently score every night with George Hill in the starting lineup at two guard, the ceiling of this team would go much higher. That is easily the best defensive unit in the NBA. No question.

    Hill has always been considered a two guard, but he has exceptional ball handling skills, he doesn't ever turn the ball over and I wonder if he could effectively do it? He'd never be a great assist man, but effective point guards like Mike Conley and Stephen Curry aren't either. Curry's main skill is scoring. So it's not as if teams don't start point guards that aren't the most effective passers. It's actually fairly common.
    Last edited by mattie; 01-03-2012 at 07:35 AM.

  10. #7

    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    No

    Collison might be playing the best ball on the team right now. 10pnts 7 ast 48%fg and 66% 3ball. Not to mention he's been pretty darn good on defense. Almost a block and 2 rips a game and only 1.8 fouls per game in doing so.

    Yah.....no
    Last edited by Foul on Smits; 01-03-2012 at 08:02 AM.

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  12. #8
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Hill has always been considered a two guard, but he has exceptional ball handling skills, he doesn't ever turn the ball over and I wonder if he could effectively do it? He'd never be a great assist man, but effective point guards like Mike Conley and Stephen Curry aren't either. Curry's main skill is scoring. So it's not as if teams don't start point guards that aren't the most effective passers. It's actually fairly common.
    Conley is most definitely a PG. He averaged 6.5 assists last season, with an A/TO ratio of 3.0 (10th in the league).

    You might have a case with Curry, who's not a pure PG. But even then, his 6.2 assists per 36 dwarfs Hill's 3.2 assists per 36.

    Yeah, Hill does take care of the ball, but you want more than that from your starting PG. Especially with our roster, where you can't expect much playmaking from the other positions.

    I suppose Hill could an effective starting PG in the way Derek Fisher was an effective starter, but he'd need to be playing next to a Kobe Bryant type of player, which we obviously don't have.

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  14. #9
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    No

    Collison might be playing the best ball on the team right now. 10pnts 7 *** 48%fg and 66% 3ball

    Yah.....no
    Your position could be right, but your argument is incredibly weak bringing absolutely nothing to a potentially interesting discussion.

    I mean what's the point of responding if you're not at least slightly interested in challenging what is clearly your predisposed perception?

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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    It should be asked. I don't know if people are asking themselves or not, but yes it absolutely should be a question that needs to be answered at some point.

    I'm motivated to ask, because if the team could efficiently score every night with George Hill in the starting lineup at two guard, the ceiling of this team would go much higher. That is easily the best defensive unit in the NBA. No question.

    Hill has always been considered a two guard, but he has exceptional ball handling skills, he doesn't ever turn the ball over and I wonder if he could effectively do it? He'd never be a great assist man, but effective point guards like Mike Conley and Stephen Curry aren't either. Curry's main skill is scoring. So it's not as if teams don't start point guards that aren't the most effective passers. It's actually fairly common.
    In general teams start and play those kind of players at PG instead of SG because they are too short to guard bigger SGs, and there just aren't that many good PG's out there. Hill is a SG who can play some PG. If you don't have to play him at PG you only play him there to mix things up a bit. If you do, you have an effective back-up PG, but not an ideal PG.

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  17. #11

    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Your position could be right, but your argument is incredibly weak bringing absolutely nothing to a potentially interesting discussion.

    I mean what's the point of responding if you're not at least slightly interested in challenging what is clearly your predisposed perception?
    If it's not broke, don't fix it.


    There, I win.

  18. #12
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Conley is most definitely a PG. He averaged 6.5 assists last season, with an A/TO ratio of 3.0 (10th in the league).

    You might have a case with Curry, who's not a pure PG. But even then, his 6.2 assists per 36 dwarfs Hill's 3.2 assists per 36.

    Yeah, Hill does take care of the ball, but you want more than that from your starting PG. Especially with our roster, where you can't expect much playmaking from the other positions.

    I suppose Hill could an effective starting PG in the way Derek Fisher was an effective starter, but he'd need to be playing next to a Kobe Bryant type of player, which we obviously don't have.
    That is one of the biggest problems this team has, and will have for some time, the lack of ball movement on offense. Which of course I don't put the fault of that on DC.

  19. #13
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    I'm hoping that Hill is still adjusting and learning the offense - he is taking too much time off the shot clock whenever he tries to initiate an offense...

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  21. #14
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Mattie,

    I have no clue who you are, but your tone of debate here, towards me and other posters is to say it very friendly, obnoxious.

    I have no need whatsoever to read a dictionary, excel does not equal being proficient.
    Next point; if you are so proficient in English, perhaps you can come school me in the 7 other languages I speak, 2 of them being my mother tongue and neither being English?

    Don't open a thread if you can only take answers of people who are in agreement with you or lay bare what you propose, the idea in itself is in my opinion preposterous and I answered it as I see the case.
    I have been a proponent of "pointing" point guards for as long as I can remember, and that is long, so don't ask me if a combo-guard should become pointguard, they are not the same kettle of fish.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  23. #15
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Mattie,

    I have no clue who you are, but your tone of debate here, towards me and other posters is to say it very friendly, obnoxious.

    I have no need whatsoever to read a dictionary, excel does not equal being proficient.
    Next point; if you are so proficient in English, perhaps you can come school me in the 7 other languages I speak, 2 of them being my mother tongue and neither being English?

    Don't open a thread if you can only take answers of people who are in agreement with you or lay bare what you propose, the idea in itself is in my opinion preposterous and I answered it as I see the case.
    I have been a proponent of "pointing" point guards for as long as I can remember, and that is long, so don't ask me if a combo-guard should become pointguard, they are not the same kettle of fish.
    Apologies.

    I never appreciate dismissive responses is all.

    As you felt the idea is preposterous, you refused to actually question if there was any truth to it.

    I have no problems with anyone who disagrees, in fact I like several responses that disagree they make a lot of sense.

    The only responses I don't like, is "uh no." Personally I don't believe someones opinion based on absolutely nothing is worth anything.

    Also, just for the record. I have never said I personally believe George Hill should start. I have asked if he should.

    Edit- you dismissed my thread, I dismissed your response. All is fair right?
    Last edited by mattie; 01-03-2012 at 08:36 AM.

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  25. #16

    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    I like Collison as the starter, even if I'm not always impressed with his defense. Hill will get his minutes.

    And for the record I also thought "read a dictionary" came off as a little rude.
    Last edited by King Tuts Tomb; 01-03-2012 at 09:08 AM.

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  27. #17
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    I don't appreciate poor arguments, or just a lazy half-assed response. I never care what the actual opinion is. But yes I will openly admit if someone can only bring "no" or the equivalent to "nuh uh" to the table I will not have a positive response.

    I mean a retard can come up with an opinion. He won't know why it's his opinion, but hey look he has one! Isn't at least ok to demand that any thoughts posted should be based on something? /fact/reasoning/maybe just ilikeit/ is that so hard?

    I don't feel I've ever insulted anyone in any way either. Just hinted they should construct a small worth while response. That's it. Simple.
    Last edited by mattie; 01-03-2012 at 09:02 AM.

  28. #18
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    There's a debate?

    I'm no fan of DC, but he's by far the best PG for us so far. In fact, I think playing George Hill as the main backup PG is hurting our second unit. I'm a huge fan of Hill, but not of his PG abilities.

    I'd like to see Price get a shot at being the main backup, with Hill playing SG.
    What he said. Collison has arguably been the best and most improved performer so far this season (consistently).
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  29. #19

    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Collison is probably not the end game for the Pacers. His inability to run pick and roll and guard larger PG's will eventually seal his fate on the bench if we ever land a above average point guard. For now, he is the best PG on the team and should stay the starter.

  30. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    I don't appreciate poor arguments, or just a lazy half-assed response. I never care what the actual opinion is. But yes I will openly admit if someone can only bring "no" or the equivalent to "nuh uh" to the table I will not have a positive response.

    I mean a retard can come up with an opinion. He won't know why it's his opinion, but hey look he has one! Isn't at least ok to demand that any thoughts posted should be based on something? /fact/reasoning/maybe just ilikeit/ is that so hard?

    I don't feel I've ever insulted anyone in any way either. Just hinted they should construct a small worth while response. That's it. Simple.
    Look this is an Internet message board where a good portion type from their cell phones or work. It's highly likely that when someoe reads this and finds your argument to be extremely weak (I personally don't know how anyone could find solace in it) they will respond with very little because, what's the point?

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  32. #21
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Collison is simply better than Hill. Hill's a solid player, but his game really is a SG's game. Minutes at the PG spot will work, but that's not where Hill's best.

    Collison, this year, has been pretty solid offensively while putting an intense effort out at the defensive end of the floor. Is he the greatest 1 on 1 defender? No. But he's been pesky in transition and I think has helped the team from that end of the floor.

    Collison's really giving us about everything we need from a starting point. The season's young, but he's the one player that has seemed to show true growth.

    So maybe Hill should start, but I don't think Paul George needs to be coming off the bench.

  33. #22
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    For what we have to work with I think DC should still start and get the lion's share of the minutes at pg. Hill seems to be in an ideal role as a backup combo guard and I don't see him as ever being a full time pg in the league. Sadly DC still hasn't proven himself either. There a lot of things I want out of a starting pg, but the single biggest think is to be a pass first pg. DC has been here long enough to show that he isn't that pg. DC has shown at times that he could be that player, but for some reason he chooses not to be. We have our team on the floor for this year and it's a lot better then we've had for several years. At the end of the season if DC isn't the pg we need to take us to a contender status, then we need to make upgrading the pg position our focus during the next free agent period. In an ideal world we'd have a better pg and one of these guys backing him up.

  34. #23
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    What does DC have to do to get some respect? He is passing. He is play decent defense. He is active in leadership (pulling team together at foul attempts).

    There were a couple of passes last night that the old DC would not have made. I think he is what we need. And he is not the major problem.

  35. #24

    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    That is one of the biggest problems this team has, and will have for some time, the lack of ball movement on offense. Which of course I don't put the fault of that on DC.

    Who do you put the fault on?

  36. #25
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    Default Re: The debate: Should George Hill start? Note: A focus on swapping roles with Darren Collison

    When it comes to who is best at facilitating the offense this year, I don't think it's even close. It's Collison all day for starting PG, and Lance honestly would be my backup based on what I've seen this year.

    I don't really even consider Hill a combo guard. His best skills lie in guard defense and creating offense, not facilitating it. While he's had a rough/rusty start this year, history is shown this is where his impact is. He's pretty much a pure 2 for this offense, but I appreciate Coach's attempts to experiment and see what we have.

    1: Collison / Stephenson / Price
    2: George / Hill
    3: Granger / George / Jones
    4: West / Hansbrough
    5: Hibbert / Foster / Amundson

    The main reason that Hill gets played at the one (in both SA and Indy) is because he deserves to be on the floor with his play, but in both cases, the roster is stacked with others who play in similar roles.

    If Granger wasn't here, we'd play George at the 3 all day and not even think about it, leaving Hill to start at the 2.

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