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Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

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We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

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In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

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What's wrong with our offense?

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  • #31
    Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    I don't think it is as much about the offense as it is just making the shots. I do wish there was more ball movement, and at times it is pretty bad overall though I think if is fine. We just need better shot selection, and need to start actually making baskets. Halfof the equation should just be aboutt getting some playing time. That they missed out on because of the short preseason.

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    • #32
      Re: What's wrong with our offense?

      Pick and roll was also supposed to be one of the priorities this year but DC is just not that good at it.
      @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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      • #33
        Re: What's wrong with our offense?

        Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
        Pick and roll was also supposed to be one of the priorities this year but DC is just not that good at it.

        True but I haven't seen many coming off those picks cleanly either. It's like the timing is off. Again, something time will fix.

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        • #34
          Re: What's wrong with our offense?

          Originally posted by Eleazar View Post
          I don't think it is as much about the offense as it is just making the shots. I do wish there was more ball movement, and at times it is pretty bad overall though I think if is fine. We just need better shot selection, and need to start actually making baskets. Halfof the equation should just be aboutt getting some playing time. That they missed out on because of the short preseason.
          The ball movement hasn't been good. That's not the only problem though because you're right they are not making open jumpers. Part of this is probably just getting into basketball shape. Part of it is what Vogel is talking about.

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          • #35
            Re: What's wrong with our offense?

            Gilbert Arenas anyone?

            I'm super tired and am only half kidding at this point.
            First time in a long time, I've been happy with the team that was constructed, and now they struggle. I blame the coach.

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            • #36
              Re: What's wrong with our offense?

              My take on it is we are expending all of our energy on the defensive end. We just are not in basketball shape. While our defense is stellar and just about tops in the NBA, we won't be able to hit our shots until we get our legs. It will be hard to get them in this shortened season.

              Also obviously Lance, Hill, West, and Amundson are still all working their way onto this team. Amundson will rarely be an offensive contributor I'm afraid. Also it's been noted several times we haven't been able to work on our offense because of the shortened season. Quinn pointed out in the game Friday that we looked a half step off. I missed all but the end of the Detroit game so I'm looking forward to finally breaking the ice offensively tomorrow I hope.

              Man this season is brutal...Only the strongest teams will come out on top this year. Luckily we are young but from what I saw at the end of the game Saturday we were out of gas. I can't even imagine the back to back to back. At some point the fatigue and conditioning will level for all teams so then we will see who is the best. Teams that aren't deep with talent will really struggle this year. So Foster and Pendergraph getting healthy will be huge I think.

              I also think we are lucky to have Hansbrough, Amundson, Foster, and Pendergraph because they will still be going all out when other teams are dead tired here in a few weeks. Things could really get interesting this year.
              Last edited by Midcoasted; 01-01-2012, 11:32 PM.

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              • #37
                Re: What's wrong with our offense?

                First off, we dribble too much. Good offenses have limited dribbling. There's a lack of player movement and a lack of ball movement. This is where not having Dun, and Josh (and Rush in terms of ball movement) and not playing Price hurts you. Those three were the most effective at those things. PG's talanted, extremely talented, but he stays still. DC is good at cutting, but he doesn't make the best reads around the perimeter and doesn't move the ball. Hill's probably the best of the three, but he's not that good at moving without the ball, and when no one else is that great, him being good at moving the ball doesn't do THAT much, and Danny can move without the ball, but doesn't move the ball as well. Obviously, DJ is a ball stopper.

                Second, it's predictable. The offense if very clearly to give the ball to West/Hibbert/Hansbrough, and if that doesn't work have Danny, Dahntay, PG, Hill or DC drive to the basket.

                There's a few problems with that. First of all, PG and Danny don't have the best handles, and Danny and Dahntay have terrible decision making when going to the basket (hello, running into three people.) And DC is small, but is best at driving to the basket. (And Hill seems to be quite good at it.) - we need to have Danny posting people up, in order for him to get to the line -

                Roy can sometimes be pushed around, Hans can sometimes miss shots and not get the foul called, and West is coming back from a knee injury.

                The first unit needs more ball movement more player movement, and a few staple plays that are a bit more complex than "Pass the ball to Roy or David." I understand that they probably aren't at a point where they are comfortable with anything more complex than that. (Especially since Vogel was working on defense at first.) But that needs to change. And eventually, Granger's shot is going to fall, which will help significantly.

                Second unit, I'd replace Jones with Price. Obviously, I'd like that. But the second unit has obvious issues. There's no floor spacing. Hill is the only player that's supposed to be able to hit jump shots, and hasn't been able to. Usually, for a majority of the game, the second unit is Hill, DJ, PG, Hans, Amundson (will be Foster, which is not going to help the offense) Replacing DJ with AJ will improve the offense tremendously, and seeing as Hill's a pretty good defender with SG, is likely to not really hurt the defense.

                Lance can still get his six minutes of developmental time. Which I think has been a fantastic method Vogel has been using. Lance is not good. I know a lot of people like him. And I see the "talent" (if that's what you want to call it.) But he's currently a bad organized basketball player. Obviously he's a project that the Pacers are hoping works out. Giving him a few minutes in the second quarter helps Lance learn a bit, and I don't think it hurts the team's prospects of winning the game with that amount of time.

                Vogel's offensive philosophy is "smashmouth" just out muscling the other team for baskets. It's actually very similar to Pat Summit's offensive philosophy. But it needs more structure and flow. Those would be my personal suggestions.
                Last edited by Sookie; 01-02-2012, 12:19 AM.

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                • #38
                  Re: What's wrong with our offense?

                  Very good post Sookie. I agree with almost all of it. Josh is definitely a better player than Amundson. Also, I think Price and Dunleavy are better than DJ. I suspect Frank likes DJ's energy...and he does bring that. But he's not as skilled as either Price or Dunleavy on offense. Not by a long shot. He does bring toughness and energy though...so there is a tradeoff...but I think our second unit needs better offensive players when you have Lou in there.

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                  • #39
                    Re: What's wrong with our offense?

                    Price over DJ? do I have another choice? how about neither?
                    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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                    • #40
                      Re: What's wrong with our offense?

                      We have been out-assisted in the last 2 games, and this is reflected in the team's inability to score at times. The problem is probably not DC; he has had about 8 APG the last couple of games, but GH and LS combined play about the same number of minutes as DC, yet dish out less than 1/4 to 1/2 the assists. And D. Jones has an APG of less than 1!! So while many of the offensive woes are due to shots not falling, many of the shots should probably never have been attempted as selected.

                      Oh, yeah, we still need a guy who can finish. Not convinced that Danny will ever be that guy. Maybe GH. Of course, D. West may be the guy called upon to take the last shot, but I'd rather figure out a way to work the ball into Hibbert for a high percentage shot if I need a basket.

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                      • #41
                        Re: What's wrong with our offense?

                        I would say the problem with the offense is that there really isn't an offense at all. There are really only 2 things that this offense does so far:

                        1. Pick and Roll/Pop
                        2. Iso (divided between the post and the perimeter)

                        The problem with this is that iso's are only good when the offensive player is capable of consistently beating their defender. There are not very many of those guys on the roster.

                        The offense has always been my worry with Vogel. It was a bunch of nothing at the end of last season and it doesn't appear to have improved much so far. I'm willing to give it time, but, I'm not buying the "poor execution" excuse at this point. Unless the execution is so bad that it causes the design to be masked entirely, it feels much more like design flaws to me.
                        "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

                        - Salman Rushdie

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                        • #42
                          Re: What's wrong with our offense?

                          Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                          Price over DJ? do I have another choice? how about neither?
                          Pick your poison. I think Price helps facilitate ball movement and he's not a terrible defender. But definitely, we are not talking about much of an upgrade. The problem I see with DJ is that he kills the offensive flow. All DJ, All day long. It's dysfunctional offense when he's out there.

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                          • #43
                            Re: What's wrong with our offense?

                            Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                            Very good post Sookie. I agree with almost all of it. Josh is definitely a better player than Amundson. Also, I think Price and Dunleavy are better than DJ. I suspect Frank likes DJ's energy...and he does bring that. But he's not as skilled as either Price or Dunleavy on offense. Not by a long shot. He does bring toughness and energy though...so there is a tradeoff...but I think our second unit needs better offensive players when you have Lou in there.
                            Thanks, another few things I want to add..

                            DC, although not good, has gotten considerably better at moving the ball. (Along with decision making in general.)

                            But..it is significantly easier to get the ball into the post (which is a fine offensive strategy) if you are moving the ball, and have player movement and are spacing the court. (In fact, that's WHY you are supposed to space the court..)

                            I have a feeling Vogel really disliked JOB's philosophies on basketball. He doesn't seem to like "systems" and he doesn't particularly like the three point shot.

                            That hurts the offense however. You need to have some sort of organized method to get the ball into the post. And it's much easier to score in the post if the other team feels like they need to bother to guard the perimeter. I've said a numerous amount of times I learned basketball from watching women's basketball, more specifically Geno. He suggests that a third of your shots should be three pointers, which I tend to agree with. (Really, Danny, DC, Hill, and George don't need to dribble themselves into being guarded if they are wide open from the three point line. Which I've seen all of them do.)

                            Like I said, a few "staples" for plays, more ball movement and player movement, and a few outside shots will help the starting unit.

                            Edit: Whether you like Price, Dahntay, Dun or not. Sometimes it's simply about rotations and players fitting together. If the second unit was Dun, Josh, Roy, Hill..then Dahntay might help that team more so than Price does. So even if the level of the player isn't a significant upgrade, the way they fit can be. (or it can hurt. For example, Last season, when Vogel took Dahntay out for Dun when Dun returned in the second unit, the second unit improved significantly.)
                            Last edited by Sookie; 01-02-2012, 01:15 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Re: What's wrong with our offense?

                              Doesn't it at least feel good that Vogel is probably working hard on this problem now?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: What's wrong with our offense?

                                Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                                Doesn't it at least feel good that Vogel is probably working hard on this problem now?
                                Yes, and doesn't it feel better that he's likely to come up with a common sense solution.

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