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Thread: What's wrong with our offense?

  1. #26
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Bottom line, the majority of the team does not have legs right now. All of them are clanging open jumpers off the front of the rim. The lack of ball movement only enhances the feeling of ineptitude. But guys are getting open looks, especially our main scoring threats. So it will improve, the ball movement probably won't come though, but guys will start knocking down their open jumpers.
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  3. #27

    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    a)I really dont think West and Hibbert should start together.
    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=67974

    b)what would you give up for steve nash?

    c)if not nash, what would you give up for eric gordon?

  4. #28
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    These guys just need to hit some f'n shots. It's been a brick-fest. I could out-horse these guys.
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  6. #29
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I think I can buy this. A little balance is always a good thing. The Spurs actually are my personal favorite and they did run it a little. But their specialty was ball movement along with usage of some of the unique skills of their players. Duncan could go to the glass and score at will. We need Roy to work on that IMHO. DC could play the part of Tony Parker with the occasional drive up the gut, but we need better ball movement and spacing to do that. It doesn't have to be three point line type spacing. West and Tyler and even Hibbert are all very good from midrange. This would also open up the paint for Tyler to bull his way in for an And-One. So, IMO, a good offense isn't JOb ball and it's not "throw it into JO" ball either. A good offense is what we had with the Pacers in the 90's where we moved the ball and found the open man. It takes basketball skills to do that and they were exceptional at it.
    And TONS of patience which you're simply not going to get from a young team, with this talent, this early in the season. We just HAVE to give it a few games guys.

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  8. #30
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Coach Vogel:

    "I don't think we're executing well offensively," Vogel said. "It needs to improve. We know it needs to improve. We're working on it, but it's going to take time."

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2012...s-loss-Detroit
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  10. #31
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    I don't think it is as much about the offense as it is just making the shots. I do wish there was more ball movement, and at times it is pretty bad overall though I think if is fine. We just need better shot selection, and need to start actually making baskets. Halfof the equation should just be aboutt getting some playing time. That they missed out on because of the short preseason.

  11. #32
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Pick and roll was also supposed to be one of the priorities this year but DC is just not that good at it.

  12. #33
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Pick and roll was also supposed to be one of the priorities this year but DC is just not that good at it.

    True but I haven't seen many coming off those picks cleanly either. It's like the timing is off. Again, something time will fix.

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  14. #34
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I don't think it is as much about the offense as it is just making the shots. I do wish there was more ball movement, and at times it is pretty bad overall though I think if is fine. We just need better shot selection, and need to start actually making baskets. Halfof the equation should just be aboutt getting some playing time. That they missed out on because of the short preseason.
    The ball movement hasn't been good. That's not the only problem though because you're right they are not making open jumpers. Part of this is probably just getting into basketball shape. Part of it is what Vogel is talking about.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Gilbert Arenas anyone?

    I'm super tired and am only half kidding at this point.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

  16. #36

    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    My take on it is we are expending all of our energy on the defensive end. We just are not in basketball shape. While our defense is stellar and just about tops in the NBA, we won't be able to hit our shots until we get our legs. It will be hard to get them in this shortened season.

    Also obviously Lance, Hill, West, and Amundson are still all working their way onto this team. Amundson will rarely be an offensive contributor I'm afraid. Also it's been noted several times we haven't been able to work on our offense because of the shortened season. Quinn pointed out in the game Friday that we looked a half step off. I missed all but the end of the Detroit game so I'm looking forward to finally breaking the ice offensively tomorrow I hope.

    Man this season is brutal...Only the strongest teams will come out on top this year. Luckily we are young but from what I saw at the end of the game Saturday we were out of gas. I can't even imagine the back to back to back. At some point the fatigue and conditioning will level for all teams so then we will see who is the best. Teams that aren't deep with talent will really struggle this year. So Foster and Pendergraph getting healthy will be huge I think.

    I also think we are lucky to have Hansbrough, Amundson, Foster, and Pendergraph because they will still be going all out when other teams are dead tired here in a few weeks. Things could really get interesting this year.
    Last edited by Midcoasted; 01-01-2012 at 10:32 PM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    First off, we dribble too much. Good offenses have limited dribbling. There's a lack of player movement and a lack of ball movement. This is where not having Dun, and Josh (and Rush in terms of ball movement) and not playing Price hurts you. Those three were the most effective at those things. PG's talanted, extremely talented, but he stays still. DC is good at cutting, but he doesn't make the best reads around the perimeter and doesn't move the ball. Hill's probably the best of the three, but he's not that good at moving without the ball, and when no one else is that great, him being good at moving the ball doesn't do THAT much, and Danny can move without the ball, but doesn't move the ball as well. Obviously, DJ is a ball stopper.

    Second, it's predictable. The offense if very clearly to give the ball to West/Hibbert/Hansbrough, and if that doesn't work have Danny, Dahntay, PG, Hill or DC drive to the basket.

    There's a few problems with that. First of all, PG and Danny don't have the best handles, and Danny and Dahntay have terrible decision making when going to the basket (hello, running into three people.) And DC is small, but is best at driving to the basket. (And Hill seems to be quite good at it.) - we need to have Danny posting people up, in order for him to get to the line -

    Roy can sometimes be pushed around, Hans can sometimes miss shots and not get the foul called, and West is coming back from a knee injury.

    The first unit needs more ball movement more player movement, and a few staple plays that are a bit more complex than "Pass the ball to Roy or David." I understand that they probably aren't at a point where they are comfortable with anything more complex than that. (Especially since Vogel was working on defense at first.) But that needs to change. And eventually, Granger's shot is going to fall, which will help significantly.

    Second unit, I'd replace Jones with Price. Obviously, I'd like that. But the second unit has obvious issues. There's no floor spacing. Hill is the only player that's supposed to be able to hit jump shots, and hasn't been able to. Usually, for a majority of the game, the second unit is Hill, DJ, PG, Hans, Amundson (will be Foster, which is not going to help the offense) Replacing DJ with AJ will improve the offense tremendously, and seeing as Hill's a pretty good defender with SG, is likely to not really hurt the defense.

    Lance can still get his six minutes of developmental time. Which I think has been a fantastic method Vogel has been using. Lance is not good. I know a lot of people like him. And I see the "talent" (if that's what you want to call it.) But he's currently a bad organized basketball player. Obviously he's a project that the Pacers are hoping works out. Giving him a few minutes in the second quarter helps Lance learn a bit, and I don't think it hurts the team's prospects of winning the game with that amount of time.

    Vogel's offensive philosophy is "smashmouth" just out muscling the other team for baskets. It's actually very similar to Pat Summit's offensive philosophy. But it needs more structure and flow. Those would be my personal suggestions.
    Last edited by Sookie; 01-01-2012 at 11:19 PM.

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  19. #38
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Very good post Sookie. I agree with almost all of it. Josh is definitely a better player than Amundson. Also, I think Price and Dunleavy are better than DJ. I suspect Frank likes DJ's energy...and he does bring that. But he's not as skilled as either Price or Dunleavy on offense. Not by a long shot. He does bring toughness and energy though...so there is a tradeoff...but I think our second unit needs better offensive players when you have Lou in there.

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  21. #39
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Price over DJ? do I have another choice? how about neither?

  22. #40

    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    We have been out-assisted in the last 2 games, and this is reflected in the team's inability to score at times. The problem is probably not DC; he has had about 8 APG the last couple of games, but GH and LS combined play about the same number of minutes as DC, yet dish out less than 1/4 to 1/2 the assists. And D. Jones has an APG of less than 1!! So while many of the offensive woes are due to shots not falling, many of the shots should probably never have been attempted as selected.

    Oh, yeah, we still need a guy who can finish. Not convinced that Danny will ever be that guy. Maybe GH. Of course, D. West may be the guy called upon to take the last shot, but I'd rather figure out a way to work the ball into Hibbert for a high percentage shot if I need a basket.

  23. #41
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    I would say the problem with the offense is that there really isn't an offense at all. There are really only 2 things that this offense does so far:

    1. Pick and Roll/Pop
    2. Iso (divided between the post and the perimeter)

    The problem with this is that iso's are only good when the offensive player is capable of consistently beating their defender. There are not very many of those guys on the roster.

    The offense has always been my worry with Vogel. It was a bunch of nothing at the end of last season and it doesn't appear to have improved much so far. I'm willing to give it time, but, I'm not buying the "poor execution" excuse at this point. Unless the execution is so bad that it causes the design to be masked entirely, it feels much more like design flaws to me.
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  25. #42
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Price over DJ? do I have another choice? how about neither?
    Pick your poison. I think Price helps facilitate ball movement and he's not a terrible defender. But definitely, we are not talking about much of an upgrade. The problem I see with DJ is that he kills the offensive flow. All DJ, All day long. It's dysfunctional offense when he's out there.

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  27. #43

    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Very good post Sookie. I agree with almost all of it. Josh is definitely a better player than Amundson. Also, I think Price and Dunleavy are better than DJ. I suspect Frank likes DJ's energy...and he does bring that. But he's not as skilled as either Price or Dunleavy on offense. Not by a long shot. He does bring toughness and energy though...so there is a tradeoff...but I think our second unit needs better offensive players when you have Lou in there.
    Thanks, another few things I want to add..

    DC, although not good, has gotten considerably better at moving the ball. (Along with decision making in general.)

    But..it is significantly easier to get the ball into the post (which is a fine offensive strategy) if you are moving the ball, and have player movement and are spacing the court. (In fact, that's WHY you are supposed to space the court..)

    I have a feeling Vogel really disliked JOB's philosophies on basketball. He doesn't seem to like "systems" and he doesn't particularly like the three point shot.

    That hurts the offense however. You need to have some sort of organized method to get the ball into the post. And it's much easier to score in the post if the other team feels like they need to bother to guard the perimeter. I've said a numerous amount of times I learned basketball from watching women's basketball, more specifically Geno. He suggests that a third of your shots should be three pointers, which I tend to agree with. (Really, Danny, DC, Hill, and George don't need to dribble themselves into being guarded if they are wide open from the three point line. Which I've seen all of them do.)

    Like I said, a few "staples" for plays, more ball movement and player movement, and a few outside shots will help the starting unit.

    Edit: Whether you like Price, Dahntay, Dun or not. Sometimes it's simply about rotations and players fitting together. If the second unit was Dun, Josh, Roy, Hill..then Dahntay might help that team more so than Price does. So even if the level of the player isn't a significant upgrade, the way they fit can be. (or it can hurt. For example, Last season, when Vogel took Dahntay out for Dun when Dun returned in the second unit, the second unit improved significantly.)
    Last edited by Sookie; 01-02-2012 at 12:15 AM.

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  29. #44
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Doesn't it at least feel good that Vogel is probably working hard on this problem now?

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  31. #45

    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Doesn't it at least feel good that Vogel is probably working hard on this problem now?
    Yes, and doesn't it feel better that he's likely to come up with a common sense solution.

  32. #46

    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    One other thing our young squad is going to have to adjust to is that teams are going to be gearing up to play hard against them. It's not something the Pacers have had to contend with in quite some time, but they are a playoff contender and teams are going to come in aggressive. I'm not saying this the main problem with the offense, but when was the last time you heard a coach say playing the Pacers is going to be a good test of where they are as a team (see Byron Scott and the Cavs)? They aren't going to be surprising anyone and will have to get their legs under them to be aggressive on both ends of the floor.

  33. #47
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Doesn't it at least feel good that Vogel is probably working hard on this problem now?
    The implications of this are a bit over the top.
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  34. #48

    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    well hill seems like the only guy who can get to the rim w/o being a blackhole.

    granger and jones never seem to pass when they drive and collison has all that speed, but doesn't attack the rim (probably his size)

  35. #49
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harddrive7 View Post
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    True but I haven't seen many coming off those picks cleanly either. It's like the timing is off. Again, something time will fix.
    For whatever reason, the Pacers have been poor at setting picks for many lineups over multiple coaches now. Foster can set a pick well (but had no offense for the critical second part of the PnR/PnP), and Josh could do it, but no one else even harkening back to JO could manage to do it without completely telegraphing the move. Yes, we were spoiled by Dale "bone jar" Davis, but that's no excuse for it completely falling off the radar.

    We also have problems USING the pick when it is set, and I think that is timing related. It takes so long for the pick to get into position that the ball handler moves early, making the pick useless and often simply drawing the double-team WITHOUT opening a passing lane to the pick setter.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeyd View Post
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    We have been out-assisted in the last 2 games, and this is reflected in the team's inability to score at times.
    Or the other way around. Hard to chalk up an assist when the guy you pass to bricks the shot.
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  37. #50
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    Default Re: What's wrong with our offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    For whatever reason, the Pacers have been poor at setting picks for many lineups over multiple coaches now. Foster can set a pick well (but had no offense for the critical second part of the PnR/PnP), and Josh could do it, but no one else even harkening back to JO could manage to do it without completely telegraphing the move. Yes, we were spoiled by Dale "bone jar" Davis, but that's no excuse for it completely falling off the radar.

    We also have problems USING the pick when it is set, and I think that is timing related. It takes so long for the pick to get into position that the ball handler moves early, making the pick useless and often simply drawing the double-team WITHOUT opening a passing lane to the pick setter.



    Or the other way around. Hard to chalk up an assist when the guy you pass to bricks the shot.
    Teams work very hard to contain the PnR...and it does take excellent execution to make use of it. The pick setters too often float rather than pop off the pick, so this isn't all DC's fault. Yet, I think part of the problem is DC. There are times when the pick setter is open but DC cannot seem to get the ball to them. Part of this is due to his height and the other part is his ability to pass. He's not bad, he's just not great at passing...and he's short. Perhaps they need to work on executing it better, because right now it's not working at all.

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