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Thread: JOB's influence on Vogel

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    Default JOB's influence on Vogel

    Last night's interview of Vogel reinforced a question I've been wanting to post for a couple of weeks.

    He was asked about his main influences or mentors, and he named Rick Pitino and Jim O'Brien.

    Pitino was all about working harder than anyone else, outlandish optimism, etc., while with JOB he mainly talked about how he got all his opportunities and chances through Jim. Nothing about coaching or basketball.

    Truly one of the most remarkable developments in Pacer nation the past year has been the fact that JOB was replaced with his #1 disciple . . . who coaches completely opposite, it seems.

    Just to name of few things:

    - Vogel truly emphasizes defense over offense, it's not just lip service.

    - Vogel has replaced all the complex weird over-thought out schemes with more simple, workable, realistic strategies.

    - Vogel believes positive reinforcement is more powerful than being a hard @ss.

    - Vogel demands good shot selection and immediately dethroned 3-ball.


    There's more, I'm sure. But here is the question: what GOOD did JOB bring to the table for Frank Vogel? Is there anything noteworthy other than a negative example?

    I can think of possibly a couple things: a strong work ethic in practice. And not letting prima donnas run the team.

    But there has to be more. And I am truly interested in the answers.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Meh...I really have no idea. I've never been a fan of Obies coaching philosophy.

    However, I'm wondering what he's doing at the moment. I haven't heard ANYTHING from him ever since he got kicked out.
    Thank you Jeff.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Oh brother, I wonder when the statute of limitation runs

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    Why is Troy Murphy getting more minutes than Mcroberts in LA? Wasn't job fired for this same offense? shouldn't you complain about Vogel stifling AJ's development.

    I like Vogel, but this thread is not meant to talk about him.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    JOB got Frank's foot into the coaching door. I can understand him considering Jim a main influence or mentor, even if I do think the former head coach of the Pacers was pure basketball evil.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Yeah I think JOB's influence in Vogel is similar as having an alcoholic uncle, he treads you good, he teach you about life and gives you a job but at the end of the day you don't want to be an alcoholic like him.

    In Vogels case he got to see how his mentor was a sucker for stretching the floor and shooting threes(his alcohol) and not only that but he also got to see pretty much what not to do when running a team so as soon as he took the team he pretty much did a 360 on it without thinking about it.

    So yeah JOB's influence in Vogel was important because he got to see how not to suck, who knows how good of a coach Vogel would be if he didn't get to watch a horrible coached team by the clown

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by 31andonly View Post
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    Meh...I really have no idea. I've never been a fan of Obies coaching philosophy.

    However, I'm wondering what he's doing at the moment. I haven't heard ANYTHING from him ever since he got kicked out.
    Last I saw of him...

    Last edited by The Sleeze; 12-29-2011 at 10:14 AM.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yeah I think JOB's influence in Vogel is similar as having an alcoholic uncle, he treads you good, he teach you about life and gives you a job but at the end of the day you don't want to be an alcoholic like him.
    This.

    This probably has to be the most rational, realistic thing I have ever seen you say.

    However, fundamentally JOB wasn't bad. His philosophies were pretty good, just execution and accountability towards his philosophies were questionable. He was given the task to go out there and win at any cost, no matter what he had to do. He was told to make wine out of water, nasty sewer water for that matter but we saw how that worked out.

    With that said, this team is better with Vogel leading the way. I along with all of you guys is glad we moved in this direction. Again, JOB isn't a bad coach, he just wasn't good for the team he had.

    And yes, I remember calling him out on local radio, and his reaction was very sketchy to say the least. I do understand why he said that, however. At the time, Murphy did give you a greater chance to win games. Sure, I get it. We didn't like that. The franchise wouldn't have stuck with him so long if he was doing everything wrong since the beginning.

    He's never been a developmental coach, though. That's one thing this team needed. This particular core group of players. Not starting PG out with significant minutes did hinder his early development, now he is playing catch-up. Limiting Roy after making mistakes. But when you are told to win, you've gotta do what you can do it. He was playing for his job the entire time he was here. He was brought in to coach a team with Jermaine O'Neal, Jamaal Tinsley, Stephen Graham, Shawne Williams and an occasionaly healthy Marquis Daniels. Heck, Murphleavy. In the middle of his tenure that group of players were shipped out or benched for newer, younger players. Well, now what?!

    Don't take this as me defending him, but rationalizing his position. Like I said, I am glad he is gone. He wasn't the right guy for what direction we want to head in. You just can't completely blame him for the lack of success.
    Last edited by duke dynamite; 12-29-2011 at 10:20 AM.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Oh brother, I wonder when the statute of limitation runs
    Okay, I can understand you guys complaining when JOB comes up in some off thread, but this is about what Vogel said in an interview before last night's game. I know some people never want to see his name ever uttered again, but it's a perfectly valid question.

    As for the OT, I doubt Vogel would ever say this, but I'm sure he learned how not to do some things. I'm not saying, "Oh, whatever Jimmy did, do the opposite by default", but things like the importance of building up younger players, keeping things simple, etc. I'm sure Frank would be a completely different coach if he hadn't been here the last 4 years.
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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    I think vnzla81 is right.

    But, I am not sure Vogel is actually consciously aware of it. He simply saw what didn't work over and over and over and over and when he got to run things Vogel stopped doing that, leaving him the choice to basically do the opposite, and voila, it worked! Now, because that worked, we got David West with some of our cap space, and so far that seems to be working too.

    So, in the end, we should probably be truly grateful for the unintended consequences of the JOB reign of 3-ball and no defense because it has allowed us to end up with a coaching staff (and possibly roster) that should be the envy of the league in the near future.

    Thanks JOB!

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    McKey... I actually was thinking this in the middle of the game last night. I saw PG pump fake and realize he was in front of the three point line. He took one dribble, stepped back and knocked down the three.

    I immediately thought to myself, that was JOB's teaching coming back to the kid mid-play. That wasn't the only occurence. I saw Hibbert hit the foul line extended jumper with ease. I saw a back door cut by I think Dahntay that was reminiscent of the JOB era.

    I guess my point is this. JOB was a very good coach in terms of teaching players the fundamentals of basketball. He prioritized some things poorly over other things, yes, but he did teach them some important aspects of the game. I hope some of those teachings help these guys have great careers. One thing I won't hate on Jim about is that he helped these kids get better, regardless if we feel that he screwed up the rotation every night. I actually think that our endurance is better than most teams right now, because JOB has always preached being in better shape than the other teams. We look like we as a collective team are in better shape than most of the teams I have seen so far. Our shooting percentage is beyond gross, but it is not because our guys aren't in shape.

    I would actually thank JOB for a lot of what he accomplished here. I know I disagreed with a lot of it, from both front office and basketball philosphy perspectives, but I think a lot of what he did teach these guys will help them long-term.

    That said, THANK GOD Frank Vogel is our coach.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Last night's interview of Vogel reinforced a question I've been wanting to post for a couple of weeks.

    He was asked about his main influences or mentors, and he named Rick Pitino and Jim O'Brien.

    Pitino was all about working harder than anyone else, outlandish optimism, etc., while with JOB he mainly talked about how he got all his opportunities and chances through Jim. Nothing about coaching or basketball.

    Truly one of the most remarkable developments in Pacer nation the past year has been the fact that JOB was replaced with his #1 disciple . . . who coaches completely opposite, it seems.

    Just to name of few things:

    - Vogel truly emphasizes defense over offense, it's not just lip service.

    - Vogel has replaced all the complex weird over-thought out schemes with more simple, workable, realistic strategies.

    - Vogel believes positive reinforcement is more powerful than being a hard @ss.

    - Vogel demands good shot selection and immediately dethroned 3-ball.


    There's more, I'm sure. But here is the question: what GOOD did JOB bring to the table for Frank Vogel? Is there anything noteworthy other than a negative example?

    I can think of possibly a couple things: a strong work ethic in practice. And not letting prima donnas run the team.

    But there has to be more. And I am truly interested in the answers.
    You can learn a lot from a bad coach.
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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Oh brother, I wonder when the statute of limitation runs
    I feel like I asked an honest question. One person so far has named one possible positive contribution: JOB demanded endurance and being in shape physically.

    I'm still looking for more positive contributions from JOB. Or were there none?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    McKey... I actually was thinking this in the middle of the game last night. I saw PG pump fake and realize he was in front of the three point line. He took one dribble, stepped back and knocked down the three.

    I immediately thought to myself, that was JOB's teaching coming back to the kid mid-play. That wasn't the only occurence. I saw Hibbert hit the foul line extended jumper with ease. I saw a back door cut by I think Dahntay that was reminiscent of the JOB era.
    This is a very sensible point and if you hadn't typed it, I might've never realized it.

    JOB was a good offensive coach. He taught the player's proper spacing and he maximized a lot of the "talent" we had. Granger, Murphy, Dunleavy, Kareem Rush, Jerret Jack, and Stephen Graham have had their best seasons from an offensive standpoint while playing for Jim O'Brien.

    I've also read several times that he was a really good coach during practices.

    These are some positive things that Vogel probably took from his experience with JOB because the current offense at times looks similar to the offense that O'Brien ran.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Oh brother, I wonder when the statute of limitation runs
    They'll let it go when you finally pay your gambling debt to Jermaniac.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    There is an irony to all of this that many overlook (and I'm sure Vogel would agree with me). 2001 Boston Celtics, they were in the middle of Year 4 of the Pitino Era. Pitino was largely viewed as the scapegoat and the source of poor morale and poor record by fans/media (sound familiar so far?). Pitino is gone by January (with the team at 12-22). Jim O'Brien takes over, and immediately he is viewed as a breath of fresh air. Players were GUSHING over how O'Brien was better at managing the rotation and minutes, and how his OPTIMISM and positive reinforcement was a welcome departure from Pitino's style. Everything framed by the Boston Globe that year in terms of Pitino to O'Brien was very similar to the way the IndyStar has framed O'Brien to Vogel.... That Celtics team went 24-24 the rest of the season, and the Era of Good Feelings extended into the following season as the Celtics improbably made the Eastern Conference Finals for the first time in 14 years. They went from a team that was bottom 3 in FG defense in Pitino's last full season, to SECOND in the entire league in 01-02 (trailing only the Lakers), with virtually the same exact roster--Antoine Walker leading the league in minutes, etc....

    Point being, in this early 2000's Boston Celtics model, it was JIM O'BRIEN who was that team's Frank Vogel, he played that role very well. And Frank Vogel was there! He saw all of this, and I'm sure this was not lost on him when he took over during O'Brien's 4th year in Jan 2011--VOGEL HAD TO FOLLOW O'BRIEN'S MODEL FROM A DECADE EARLIER IN TERMS OF APPROACH. Now when O'Brien took the Indiana job in 2007, his approach was probably akin to Pitino's when he took over the Celtics in 1997. Forceful, impose a lot of discipline and a different kind of culture.... And Both the 97-98 Celtics in Pitino's first year and 07-08 Pacers in O'Brien's first year were viewed as overachieving with 36 wins, but over time, whether it was Pitino's fault the Celtics never exceeded 36 wins the following few years, or whether it was O'Brien's fault the Pacers never exceeded 36 wins the following years is not so much the key issue---with that type of (perhaps overbearing) coaching approach AND the team is not winning, then of course morale will take a hit. Which is why in 2001 the Celtics needed Jim O'Brien, and why in 2011 the Pacers needed Frank Vogel. And Vogel's model for approach and style in this "replacing the coach midseason" context is the one laid out by JOB from a decade earlier with the Celtics.
    Last edited by DonSwanson; 12-29-2011 at 07:31 PM. Reason: paragraphs are our friends, etc.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    You can learn a lot from a bad coach.
    O'Brien is not a bad coach... he's a very specific type of coach and isn't overly versatile. Most of what the masses here complain about is simply an aesthetic issue. It was the same with Carlisle's slog-ball.

    O'Brien is a true believer - much the same way Phil Jackson is with the triangle. They both have specific puzzles and they are going to fit the players into the openings whether they fit or not. Both have proved successful with their systems (Phil obviously much more so) so they have reason for believing in their system.

    Someone like Rick Carlisle was the opposite - he would change the team's style to fit the specific players on the roster. The guy had a massive playbook and would play mad scientist trying to figure out how to best feature the personnel.

    Doesn't mean that one coach is necessarily better than the other, just different. Most of this board was so relieved when, after O'Brien's first home game, Gilbert Arenas said something like "They look different, they don't play like robots anymore." It isn't as if most people that wanted Rick Carlisle gone thought he was any more capable of winning a championship than they think Jim O'Brien is now.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    You can learn a lot from a bad coaching experience.
    Fixed.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSwanson View Post
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    ....VOGEL HAD TO FOLLOW O'BRIEN'S MODEL FROM A DECADE EARLIER IN TERMS OF APPROACH....
    I partially agree with this, but I also think that Vogel is just a positive person by nature, even he himself admitted this in interviews.

    Would JOB have ever done the "crane" from karate kid during an interview, or spun a basketball on a toothbrush for a some fans in the balcony....no way. Frank is just a different person all together.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    O'Brien is not a bad coach... he's a very specific type of coach and isn't overly versatile. Most of what the masses here complain about is simply an aesthetic issue. It was the same with Carlisle's slog-ball.

    O'Brien is a true believer - much the same way Phil Jackson is with the triangle. They both have specific puzzles and they are going to fit the players into the openings whether they fit or not. Both have proved successful with their systems (Phil obviously much more so) so they have reason for believing in their system.

    Someone like Rick Carlisle was the opposite - he would change the team's style to fit the specific players on the roster. The guy had a massive playbook and would play mad scientist trying to figure out how to best feature the personnel.

    Doesn't mean that one coach is necessarily better than the other, just different. Most of this board was so relieved when, after O'Brien's first home game, Gilbert Arenas said something like "They look different, they don't play like robots anymore." It isn't as if most people that wanted Rick Carlisle gone thought he was any more capable of winning a championship than they think Jim O'Brien is now.
    Except Rick and Phil consistantly win with their styles. Jim is a gimmick coach. That crap doesn't work in the NBA. How teams win in the playoffs completely contradict his coaching style.


    He needs to get a mid-major coaching gig. He would fit in at that level. Not in the NBA.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    I think Vogel learned to do pretty much the opposite of JOB.

    we were about 15 minutes into last nights game, when I realized, the only person I could remember taking a three was PG.

    I actually think it might be a little too far in the opposite direction, particularly for Grange. (He needs to stop and settle for the midrange instead of driving into three people.)

    He's essentially learned "what not to do." I don't think he consciously goes "JOB did this, so I'm going to do this." I just think it's subconscious.

    The "working harder" than everyone else is pretty obvious. That's Vogel's major philosophy. And the team (particularly Hansbrough) has bought in to it.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    The irony of this is that yesterday I had a post all written, typed and placed on the board but deleted before I hit send called "exercising the devil".

    It was a post that I was going to declare to be my last piece about JOB and although in the future I reserved the right to take pot shots at him I was pretty much done and was inviting others to join me. In it I listed out several things both good and bad about O'Brien. However at the end I decided against posting because I wasn't sure if it was to soon or even maybe it was to late.


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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    McKey... I actually was thinking this in the middle of the game last night. I saw PG pump fake and realize he was in front of the three point line. He took one dribble, stepped back and knocked down the three.

    I immediately thought to myself, that was JOB's teaching coming back to the kid mid-play. That wasn't the only occurence. I saw Hibbert hit the foul line extended jumper with ease. I saw a back door cut by I think Dahntay that was reminiscent of the JOB era.

    I guess my point is this. JOB was a very good coach in terms of teaching players the fundamentals of basketball. He prioritized some things poorly over other things, yes, but he did teach them some important aspects of the game. I hope some of those teachings help these guys have great careers. One thing I won't hate on Jim about is that he helped these kids get better, regardless if we feel that he screwed up the rotation every night. I actually think that our endurance is better than most teams right now, because JOB has always preached being in better shape than the other teams. We look like we as a collective team are in better shape than most of the teams I have seen so far. Our shooting percentage is beyond gross, but it is not because our guys aren't in shape.

    I would actually thank JOB for a lot of what he accomplished here. I know I disagreed with a lot of it, from both front office and basketball philosphy perspectives, but I think a lot of what he did teach these guys will help them long-term.

    That said, THANK GOD Frank Vogel is our coach.
    I actually think a lot of players who can shoot the three have that as an instinct. If you don't have a good shot at first and you can use a pump fake to get the better shot you'll try and do it. It's more instinct than JOB's teachings. You are taught to do these things early as a basketball player.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    A huge thing that I see from our team as well is deflections. We have had a ton of defensive deflections and JOB preached that pretty hard defensively. The more deflections, the more turnovers you contribute to.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by PGisthefuture View Post
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    I actually think a lot of players who can shoot the three have that as an instinct. If you don't have a good shot at first and you can use a pump fake to get the better shot you'll try and do it. It's more instinct than JOB's teachings. You are taught to do these things early as a basketball player.
    No, he had a clear shot, he just decided to make sure he was taking a three instead of a long two after the defender had already gone by him. JOB definitely made sure players knew that a three was a much better shot than a long two.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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