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Thread: JOB's influence on Vogel

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    My favorite is that we never saw a minute of our most athletic big against Josh Smith, Amare Stoudemire, and Blake Griffin under O'Brien.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    It's silly to think that every thing that Obie did was evil. Obviously he did some good things as well, the indisputable one being that he helped to change the culture of a team in disarray. pacergod2 has pointed out several basketball things, and I'll add another - several of our players had career shooting years under Obie, which I don't think is an accident. You might not agree with Obie's emphasis on the long ball (and I don't) but the improved shooting comes in useful even now.
    This is really why I started this thread. You and a few others have provided some good insights.
    .

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    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    (Jim O'Brien) made Isiah Thomas look like John Wooden.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Some of the comments like Obie making Isiah look like John Wooden are completely absurd...insulting even.

    When JOB came in he knew exactly the mess he was getting into and not too many
    other experienced coaches out there seemed to want to touch that.

    While I did not like the style he tried to force upon his players, thought he served
    the purpose well for which he was originally brought in, which was to help make the
    transition from the train wreck we had going to the new era which we are seeing
    now.

    The man came into a tough situation and probably knew going in that he would not
    be a permanent fixture here.

    Clearly JOB's few triumphs and many failures here was a great experience for
    Coach Vogel to learn from.

    I am just happy things are turning out the way they are now, and like it or not,
    JOB helped pave the way to the bright future we are seeing now.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    He's like the ex-girlfriend that you really can't stand because of what you went through, but at the same time you realize that you learned alot about yourself and life in general because of the time you spent together.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Glad I have stayed out of this. I will always believe that getting 36 wins in each of his first two season was a very good job of coaching. He also did a very good job in changing the atmosphere of the franchise. He also speeded up the getting rid of some of the dead weight players around here.

    Beyond that he was a lot better coach IMO than most of you want to admit. But that isn't saying much since most of you think he is not only the worst coach ever, but almost seem to regard him as almost evil.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-30-2011 at 02:51 PM.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Glad I have stayed out of this. I will always believe that getting 36 wins in each of his first two season was a very good job of coaching. He also did a very good job in changing the atmosphere of he franchise. He also speeded up the getting rid of some of the dead weight players around here.

    Beyond that he was a lot better coach IMO than most of you want to admit.
    36 wins in the NBA is terrible I would rather my coach get 15 wins a year(while rebuilding) than 36 year after year.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Glad I have stayed out of this. I will always believe that getting 36 wins in each of his first two season was a very good job of coaching. He also did a very good job in changing the atmosphere of the franchise. He also speeded up the getting rid of some of the dead weight players around here.

    Beyond that he was a lot better coach IMO than most of you want to admit. But that isn't saying much since most of you think he is not only the worst coach ever, but almost seem to regard him as almost evil.
    almost????


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Glad I have stayed out of this. I will always believe that getting 36 wins in each of his first two season was a very good job of coaching. He also did a very good job in changing the atmosphere of the franchise. He also speeded up the getting rid of some of the dead weight players around here.

    Beyond that he was a lot better coach IMO than most of you want to admit. But that isn't saying much since most of you think he is not only the worst coach ever, but almost seem to regard him as almost evil.
    To be fair, you also tried arguing that McRoberts wasn't an NBA level talent as well.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by RamBo_Lamar View Post
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    Some of the comments like Obie making Isiah look like John Wooden are completely absurd...insulting even.

    When JOB came in he knew exactly the mess he was getting into and not too many
    other experienced coaches out there seemed to want to touch that.

    While I did not like the style he tried to force upon his players, thought he served
    the purpose well for which he was originally brought in, which was to help make the
    transition from the train wreck we had going to the new era which we are seeing
    now.

    The man came into a tough situation and probably knew going in that he would not
    be a permanent fixture here.

    Clearly JOB's few triumphs and many failures here was a great experience for
    Coach Vogel to learn from.

    I am just happy things are turning out the way they are now, and like it or not,
    JOB helped pave the way to the bright future we are seeing now.
    Conversely when Isiah Thomas signed up he thought he was getting a veteran squad who had just been to the NBA finals and was poised for another run. He had to change everything on the fly with virtually a new cast and still managed to make the playoffs in every year he was here. Did he have more talent? Maybe, but he also had more knuckleheads as well and he did a good job of managing them.

    People made fun of "the quick" but could someone really tell me the significant difference between that and O'Briens motion offense? I can tell you one, the quick did not rely on the three point shot and Thomas still cared deeply about shot selection.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    I've actually been paying attention to the former Indiana Pacers players that were here when JOB was the coach and those guys are not looking that bad, Murphy looked good and was playing D last night, even Dunleavy(yes Dunleavy ) doesn't look as horrible in another system, I wouldn't be surprised that TJ Ford becomes a 6th man type of player in SA.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    36 wins in the NBA is terrible I would rather my coach get 15 wins a year(while rebuilding) than 36 year after year.
    So wait, you are suggesting that you would rather have a coach get 15 wins than 36 wins?

    So if O'Brien would have gotten back to back 15 win seasons, you would think he is a better coach?

    Ok

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I've actually been paying attention to the former Indiana Pacers players that were here when JOB was the coach and those guys are not looking that bad, Murphy looked good and was playing D last night, even Dunleavy(yes Dunleavy ) doesn't look as horrible in another system, I wouldn't be surprised that TJ Ford becomes a 6th man type of player in SA.
    Murphy isn't a bad player for 15/20 minutes a game against backup PFs (most of which can't score), I've seen him just get out of the way on defense a few times, but he's been better.

    Dun really only had one bad season here, after his knee injury.

    If TJ adjusts his game he could be better. I'm sure Pop will help him do that. (And Pop is also the type of coach that showcases his players strengths and covers their weaknesses, you know..a good coach.)

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    So wait, you are suggesting that you would rather have a coach get 15 wins than 36 wins?

    So if O'Brien would have gotten back to back 15 win seasons, you would think he is a better coach?

    Ok
    It's just a philisophical difference and one that you nor he will ever change your mind on.

    I tend to fall into the win the games you can win camp with you however in fairness if you watch a lot of gametime on NBAtv you will see that Sam Mitchell, Greg Anthony, Kenny Smith and Chris Webber hav all advocated doing the exact opposite and in fact each of them have gone out of the way to say that the worse place to be is mediocre.

    You disagree, which is fine, but this is becoming more and more the thinking.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    It's just a philisophical difference and one that you nor he will ever change your mind on.

    I tend to fall into the win the games you can win camp with you however in fairness if you watch a lot of gametime on NBAtv you will see that Sam Mitchell, Greg Anthony, Kenny Smith and Chris Webber hav all advocated doing the exact opposite and in fact each of them have gone out of the way to say that the worse place to be is mediocre.

    You disagree, which is fine, but this is becoming more and more the thinking.
    Blowing up a team to play youth, and get picks, is fine. That would be a GM at work with the blessing of owners.

    It doesn't have a damn thing to do with the coach. Playing guys who aren't your best players is an instant path to losing respect. A 15 win season is an instant path to ending your career.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by danman View Post
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    Blowing up a team to play youth, and get picks, is fine. That would be a GM at work with the blessing of owners.

    It doesn't have a damn thing to do with the coach. Playing guys who aren't your best players is an instant path to losing respect. A 15 win season is an instant path to ending your career.
    The funny part is that his career ended anyway

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Glad I have stayed out of this. I will always believe that getting 36 wins in each of his first two season was a very good job of coaching. He also did a very good job in changing the atmosphere of the franchise. He also speeded up the getting rid of some of the dead weight players around here.

    Beyond that he was a lot better coach IMO than most of you want to admit. But that isn't saying much since most of you think he is not only the worst coach ever, but almost seem to regard him as almost evil.
    No he's not. He played posey vs amare and Griffin. He sat PG and Tyler when not only are they the future, they were obviously better than the guys he was playing. Job was mindblowingly bad.

    And as others have pointed out, somehow we went from a laughingstocks to a 'young and deep team with a bright future '.
    Last edited by oxxo; 12-30-2011 at 05:16 PM.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The funny part is that his career ended anyway
    doubtful coaches get recycled more than cans

    Normally the coach you hire for the rebuilding process isn't the coach who will be there for the winning years and normally they understand that. They are some coaches who basically are just rebuilding coaches.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    I will say this, if Vogel's the future coach that I think he is, the Pacers organization will have a lot to thank JOB for.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Jim did a good job restoring order in Indy after the brawl. I give him credit for that. He probably deserved a couple seasons to do that.

    Beyond the first two years, all I can say is I disagreed with his decisions mostly on the court but also off of it. Although he had ample time to implement his system, his record got worse from year 2 to year 3 to year 4. This along with the fact the team played better under Vogel than it ever played under Jim O'Brien...and the fact comments were made by Bird and several players...IMO...clearly indicate Jimbo was doing a bad job and it didn't just start happening.

    With that said, I am no coach hater. I loved Rick Carlisle and Frank Vogel is good too.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    If you only win 15 games because you want to play the young players is ok, but if you are losing games just because you don't have a chance to go to the playoffs that is a different story. Losing just to lose is bad, losing because you want to give your future playing time, although not ideal, is acceptable.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    The difference between winning 36 and 15 games is the same as having Kyrie Irving instead of George Hill.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Last night's interview of Vogel reinforced a question I've been wanting to post for a couple of weeks.

    He was asked about his main influences or mentors, and he named Rick Pitino and Jim O'Brien.

    Pitino was all about working harder than anyone else, outlandish optimism, etc., while with JOB he mainly talked about how he got all his opportunities and chances through Jim. Nothing about coaching or basketball.

    Truly one of the most remarkable developments in Pacer nation the past year has been the fact that JOB was replaced with his #1 disciple . . . who coaches completely opposite, it seems.

    Just to name of few things:

    - Vogel truly emphasizes defense over offense, it's not just lip service.

    - Vogel has replaced all the complex weird over-thought out schemes with more simple, workable, realistic strategies.

    - Vogel believes positive reinforcement is more powerful than being a hard @ss.

    - Vogel demands good shot selection and immediately dethroned 3-ball.


    There's more, I'm sure. But here is the question: what GOOD did JOB bring to the table for Frank Vogel? Is there anything noteworthy other than a negative example?

    I can think of possibly a couple things: a strong work ethic in practice. And not letting prima donnas run the team.

    But there has to be more. And I am truly interested in the answers.
    He learned how to coach form Pitino and how not to do it from JOB. Vogel going to have his not so good moments thats goes with the learning curve but he is by far already surpass JOB in how to coach.
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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I feel like I asked an honest question. One person so far has named one possible positive contribution: JOB demanded endurance and being in shape physically.

    I'm still looking for more positive contributions from JOB. Or were there none?
    There were none. I say that with all seriousness.

    Perhaps O'Brien could talk and explain the game of basketball with the best of coaches, but he couldn't see the forest for the trees and had a maddeningly inconsistent approach that was a GIANT contradiction on the other side of the floor... Let alone inconsistent approaches with players between what he'd preach versus what he'd do.

    Maybe Vogel could remain open-minded and sort out the good from the crazy.

    .
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yeah I think JOB's influence in Vogel is similar as having an alcoholic uncle, he treads you good, he teach you about life and gives you a job but at the end of the day you don't want to be an alcoholic like him.

    In Vogels case he got to see how his mentor was a sucker for stretching the floor and shooting threes(his alcohol) and not only that but he also got to see pretty much what not to do when running a team so as soon as he took the team he pretty much did a 360 on it without thinking about it.

    So yeah JOB's influence in Vogel was important because he got to see how not to suck, who knows how good of a coach Vogel would be if he didn't get to watch a horrible coached team by the clown
    I have nothing really to contribute, but I couldn't let this go onto another page without noting this. Let's hope Vogel doesn't do a 360 with this team.

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