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Thread: JOB's influence on Vogel

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I need to figure out how to change a sig in tapatalk.


    Edit: Fixed it, but my phone is still awesome
    Last edited by spazzxb; 12-29-2011 at 06:30 PM.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    The truth is JOB let players sit on the bench who ultimately weren't part of this franchises future, it didn't matter.

    Ever thought that maybe why they ended up not being part of the future was because our coach did not know how to properly coach them? Rush has every bit as much pure talent as Granger if not more, yet he was told just to sit in the corner (he wasn't the only one). This team always played better when McRoberts started over Murphy, or received significant minutes. Maybe with the right coach McRoberts would have received the playing time to become a much better player than he is, or we could have had a coach who knew how to get the most out of Rush. JOB was a major reason why these two players did not have a future here, not the sole reason, but a big reason.

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    Your entitled to your opinion.

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  6. #54

    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The day that Blake Griffen scored 47 points against us, Tyler played two less min. that Posey and Josh did not play at all due to coach's decision. That's right you have a young energetic jack rabbit power forward so to counter him let's make sure to put old out of shape small forward who we will call a power forward.

    But only thing worse was the time that he had James guard A. Staudimire for three straight possesions in N.Y. only to have him score at will on him three straight times. That is the day I lost my mind and that is the day he should have been fired.
    I don't know if the game was televised but I was there; O'Brien had Hibbert guarding Blake Griffin for the entire game.

    At one point he may have been an honorable coach but by January of last season, O'Brien had no business even sniffing a basketball court.

    I believe the development we saw at the end of last season could've happened in 2009 if O'Brien hadn't been such an obstacle to the team.

    I believe he coached here for 2 1/2 years too long, so that's probably a fair amount of time for potshots. In other words, two more years of potshots at O'Brien is probably what you'll get from me.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    All I have to say is that the public comments, including those that have leaked, all show that I view Jim O'Brien very similar to the players.

    They have criticized him directly and indirectly on both the way he coaches and the way he treats the players. Make your own conclusion...whether it's right or wrong...but don't deny what the players have already said.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    All I have to say is that the public comments, including those that have leaked, all show that I view Jim O'Brien very similar to the players.

    They have criticized him directly and indirectly on both the way he coaches and the way he treats the players. Make your own conclusion...whether it's right or wrong...but don't deny what the players have already said.
    Which mean Bird deserves a good bit of the pot shots.
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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Oh God someone is going to get on here and talk about strength of schedule, this was a big twitter thing last year for the last few remaining O'Brien supporters and the rare (but out there still) Vogel haters.
    There is nothing to be gained from that. I simply want people to get over it and move on. I have have been a Bird supporter and have never been against Vogel. I just didn't like the whole team being minimized to a discussion of one man, that was always what irked me. I didn't see value in scrapping the active coaching staff to bring in a new person mid season unless they were the long term replacement. We were told at that point in time no one was qualified to take over from with in. These positions were accused of being a JOB fanboy which was unfair and entirely inaccurate. The JOB fanboy is nothing but a figment of the Haters imagination (except for flox).

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Which mean Bird deserves a good bit of the pot shots.
    I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I suppose Bird deserves a little blame for keeping Jim around for years...or at least for too long.

    With that said, I have Bird's back. I think he's done a good job with personnel and it might have been difficult for him to fire Jim...because Jim had important Pacer connections.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    I believe it was Simon's decision to fire Jim midseason. Bird didn't want to do it.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I suppose Bird deserves a little blame for keeping Jim around for years...or at least for too long.

    With that said, I have Bird's back. I think he's done a good job with personnel and it might have been difficult for him to fire Jim...because Jim had important Pacer connections.
    I have Bird's back as well. He has done a great job. But not a perfect one. Exhibit glaring A is his keeping JOB around far too long.

    It's just one of those blind spot anomalies that make you scratch your head.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I believe it was Simon's decision to fire Jim midseason. Bird didn't want to do it.
    Contrary to what Krapitz wrote, I think Bird had wanted to do it probably since mid-January (about the time we started seeing Tyler playing and Josh in a suit), but he had to convince Herb to sign off on it before he could pay a coach half a season to sit at home. We know he practically had to force the former head coach to play Tyler.
    Last edited by Sandman21; 12-29-2011 at 07:19 PM.
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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    But only thing worse was the time that he had James guard A. Staudimire for three straight possesions in N.Y. only to have him score at will on him three straight times. That is the day I lost my mind and that is the day he should have been fired.
    You're not the only one who d*mn near lost their mind during that game.

    I'm sorry, but I wasn't fond of JOB AT ALL. I gave him a chance during his first season, and hated him after the second. Personally, the only thing he contributed to Vogel was getting his foot in the door and showing him how NOT to coach a team.

    My God. I'm having flashback to when he decided it was a good idea to run a two PG backcourt (Ford and Watson) with two players under players 6'2" against New Orleans during the 2009-2010 season. I do believe that was the game where Darren Collison got his first triple double. Heck, I wouldn't have been as mad if he would AT LEAST had TJ Ford guard Collison (speed for speed matchup), but he kept insisting on having Watson run PG and Ford play the SG. I can honestly say that EVERYONE who couldn't stand JOB have that ONE game where they decided "Yep, he gotta go.".

    D*mn...now my blood pressure is up. I have to go get a drink now.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Ever thought that maybe why they ended up not being part of the future was because our coach did not know how to properly coach them? Rush has every bit as much pure talent as Granger if not more, yet he was told just to sit in the corner (he wasn't the only one). This team always played better when McRoberts started over Murphy, or received significant minutes. Maybe with the right coach McRoberts would have received the playing time to become a much better player than he is, or we could have had a coach who knew how to get the most out of Rush. JOB was a major reason why these two players did not have a future here, not the sole reason, but a big reason.
    Quoted for truth.

    Also deserves many thanks in my view. Both players had their growth stunted as professionals as a result of how they were handled, and to an extent at this point the same is true for Roy IMO. Hopefully Roy is now learning how to play as a big in the NBA as a result of having West to help guide him.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Quoted for truth.

    Also deserves many thanks in my view. Both players had their growth stunted as professionals as a result of how they were handled, and to an extent at this point the same is true for Roy IMO. Hopefully Roy is now learning how to play as a big in the NBA as a result of having West to help guide him.
    I would assume having the opportunity to work with Bill walton, Tim Duncan, and Nene helped him a little bit. You don't seem to realize you just insulted Roy.

    You know who was working with our young talent helping them improve before JOB was fired? Frank Vogel, among others. That was a big part of why he could take over mid stream. These players aren't broken.
    Last edited by spazzxb; 12-30-2011 at 01:28 AM.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    There is nothing to be gained from that. I simply want people to get over it and move on. I have have been a Bird supporter and have never been against Vogel. I just didn't like the whole team being minimized to a discussion of one man, that was always what irked me. I didn't see value in scrapping the active coaching staff to bring in a new person mid season unless they were the long term replacement. We were told at that point in time no one was qualified to take over from with in. These positions were accused of being a JOB fanboy which was unfair and entirely inaccurate. The JOB fanboy is nothing but a figment of the Haters imagination (except for flox).
    spazzxb also said in a later post.
    You know who was working with our young talent helping them improve before JOB was fired? Frank Vogel, among others.

    Here is where you and I will vastly disagree with each other. There is no way of discussing the Indiana Pacers prior to Vogel taking over without talking about Jim O'Brien. That was a huge part of the problem, he was omnipresent in every aspect of the team.

    You could not talk about player rotations, you could not talk about style of play, you could not talk about whether a player was or was not doing their job without the context of wondering whether this was or was not part of O'Briens plan.

    Now believe me there are other system coach's, take Phil Jackson for example as an extreme, he is devoted to the triangle. But you never wonder if a player is playing out of position because Phil has decided to fit a round peg into a square hole.

    The offense was certainly a product of his coaching. Notice how Vogel has the opposite coaching strategy yet we still have a wider variety of shots.

    According to Bob Kravitz, Mike Wells & every other player who would be interviewed they all said the same thing. Jim O'Brien was the only coach you would hear in practice, when he allowed assistant coach's to work with players it was after receiving his instructions on what to do with them. He took no advice from anyone and in fact one of Birds statements the year before Dick Harter retired was that Jim would be instructed to take advice from Dick (didn't happen but Bird said it anyway).

    No, it's impossible to not talk about Jim O'Brien when you talk about those pacers because he coached in such a style that there is no other way to do it.

    Poor shot selection, defense by scheme instead of skill and playing games by % instead of actually adjusting and working a game plan are always going to be remembered for those teams. But I think if anything at all it will be his absolute insistence of having a power forward who could stretch the floor that he will be the most remembered for. Tyler or Josh, you could never have both because they had to share time with Posey last year. The years before that you had Troy Murphy playing min after painful min. although every time he was gone for any extended time our teams played better. "We must play small" should be engraved on his headstone.

    For Gods sake Phil Jackson was just outright making fun of him here for using Murphy & Dunleavy at the 4 and 5.

    However the greatest humiliation was in the summer league (which btw he also insisted on coaching) one time he had Josh chucking up 3 pointer after 3 pointer when Rick Kamala who was broadcasting the game with Steve Smith said "you know Smitty that Jim O'Brien can't be happy with that" to which Steve agreed. I set there with a face palm because I knew the truth and lo and behold the brought Jim over during the 3rd quarter to talk about the club and when Kamala said to Jim "you can't be happy with Josh putting up those three point shots" Jim just looked at him and said "we insist that he does it". He then went on to try and explain his offensive philosophy about stretching the floor and I am certain that during that talk he actually showed his forked tongue and cloven hooves.

    Anyway when he left Rick turned to Smith and asked "was he kidding about McRoberts shooting the three" to which Smith said "I don't think so".

    I'll just go ahead and say it now.

    He was the worst coach I've ever seen and that is saying something considering I lived through George Irvine twice. Yes to answer the next question he made Isaiah Thomas look like John Wooden.

    Now before you scoff and blow it off understand this. My criteria for coaching is beyond X's & O's. It also is in adjustments, personnel usages, and interpersonal relationships with your players and mostly understanding that if something isn't working you try something different and by trying I don't mean try it once and then revert back to what was not working.

    He also gets points taken away from him because I know him to be a very smart coach, he can coach any style and he knows almost every style. But he is so committed to his way that come hell or high water that is what he is going to do.

    That is hubris that is stubbornness and ultimately those are traits in a coach that are deadly when they don't work.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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  23. #66

    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    He then went on to try and explain his offensive philosophy about stretching the floor and I am certain that during that talk he actually showed his forked tongue and cloven hooves.
    Great post, but I love how nonchalantly you threw that in. Well played.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    I have no problem with system coaches. (although I think that coaches that simply adjust their offense to fit their players are better) I've seen many types of systems work.

    I find that being able to motivate (fail on JOB's part) knowing players strengths and putting players in a position to succeed (fail on JOB's part) knowing good rotations, and player balance, aka what guys play well together and provide enough offense and defense (Fail on JOB's part, I actually find that Vogel struggles a bit with this one too.)

    But coaches that have successful systems have successful systems because they adjust their systems to their players strengths.

    You know, I came here as a Price fan. For two years (at Uconn) I watched a kid who had a natural ability of knowing when to pass and when to score, and when he had the freedom of knowing darn well he wasn't going to come out of the game except for breathers, he actually tended to side on the "stop shooting when missing" mentality. (His senior year, after Jerome Dyson was injured. Calhoun essentially had to beg Price to shoot more, even when he'd miss.)

    Now, I've said that Vogel stuck him on the floor with four guys who couldn't score, making him the main scoring threat, which is partially why he shot the way he did. But I also have to think, that part of the reason was because for a year and a half, he was taught that if he doesn't chuck up a three, he's coming out of the game..and might not return for a month.

    You could see the effects of JOB when Price got a little panicky/was trying to help the team catch up. He'd speed up the court and either chuck up a bad shot or pass it to someone so they could chuck up a three pointer. Why wouldn't some of the other bad habits JOB taught the guys be showing up.

    Do you know how often Price drove to the basket and passed the ball back out to a three point shooter at Uconn (instead of passing it into the post)? He probably did it more times in one game with JOB coaching than his entire career at Uconn.

    I know AJ's game better from before he was a Pacer better than the other guys on the roster. . And quite frankly, I haven't seen such a radical change in a player's behavior..like ever. He tends to be a kid that just does what a coach tells him to do unless he's got some freedom, but he was still doing things that were pretty much the opposite of his natural tendencies. And that change just happened to fit into things that JOB preaches. I'd imagine a few other young guys (Josh a little, Roy probably, Granger sure seems like it. The mood about Granger has drastically changed from just two seasons ago.) are in a similar position.

    Jimmy took some young guys, ignored their strengths and taught them bad fundamentals because he never adjusted to the game and to his players. Spreading the floor is good. Not EVERYONE needs to spread the floor. Player movement is good, but have some structured plays as a fall back for when needed, instead of the TJ/DC/AJ iso.

    Systems are fine, if you've got the right players they can work. Sometimes though, you need to tweak them. If you don't have the right players you need to adjust. Jimmy just didn't know how to do that or flat out refused. A lot of his core beliefs were accurate on it's face (Vet over young guy, floor spacing, etc..) but were taken to the extreme, and actually weren't accurate on the team he had.
    Last edited by Sookie; 12-30-2011 at 03:27 AM.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    He was the worst coach I've ever seen and that is saying something considering I lived through George Irvine twice.

    I wish I could say the same. I might have a bias because I was actually coached by him, but I had a coach who exemplified all of the worst attributes of O'Brien. Also if you want to transcend sports I can't say at all that O'Brien is a worse coach than Caldwell. Caldwell is in a league of his own, I have never seen a team with as much talent as the Colts have do so poorly.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    It's worth mentioning I think, what Bird's role in all of this is. And that is, I don't think we know. From reports we heard, Bird wanted to keep JOB. It's almost widely accepted how ludicrous it was to keep JOB as long as he was. However, we also know Bird was insistent that Paul George among others get more playing time.

    I guess I'm suggesting we don't actually know whether or not Bird wanted JOB fired. The reports we have suggest he didn't [want him fired]. Some of the facts surrounding the issue suggest he did.

    Either way it's not entirely pertinent. We have a strong coaching staff and Bird is doing a fine job brining in personnel. Just thought it's at least worth thinking about whether or not Bird is the one to blame for the JOB fiasco.
    Last edited by mattie; 12-30-2011 at 07:05 AM.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    It's worth mentioning I think, what Bird's role in all of this is. And that is, I don't think we know. From reports we heard, Bird wanted to keep JOB. It's almost widely accepted how ludicrous it was to keep JOB as long as he was.
    Yeah, it doesn't matter. Bird should have fired him long ago. If he suddenly saw the light midway last season, that's no consolation.

    Bird has a hard@ss side to his personality that somehow fellowshipped with JOB's demons which led to an irrational stubbornness to keep the coach rather than honor the players' wishes. Thankfully, Herb or somebody knocked some sense into him.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    I don't blame Larry for holding on to him, when we weren't really playing JOB-ball at the start of last season, the Pacers were actually playing pretty well most nights, and despite our dislike of the guy, Larry really couldn't justify canning him.

    And then Jim discovered that Posey could kind of shoot the 3....
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    I don't get why so many on the board insist on demonizing Obie. His final 2 years were pretty bad, yes, and Vogel appears to be a much better fit. But did he really do so much lasting damage?

    Our roster was pretty bad during most of Obie's tenure, does anyone dispute that? So the mediocre record is just a reflection of that. You might not have liked Obie's style due to philosophical or aesthetic reasons, but it's gone now and Vogel hasn't shown signs of incorporating the objectionable parts so shouldn't we all be happy about it?

    It's silly to think that every thing that Obie did was evil. Obviously he did some good things as well, the indisputable one being that he helped to change the culture of a team in disarray. pacergod2 has pointed out several basketball things, and I'll add another - several of our players had career shooting years under Obie, which I don't think is an accident. You might not agree with Obie's emphasis on the long ball (and I don't) but the improved shooting comes in useful even now.

    Lastly, I also think it's silly for Larry to get near universal praise for Vogel, while getting a pass for keeping Obie for so long. I really don't think there was some brilliant plan behind Vogel becoming coach - Obie was clearly Larry's guy to the end, and he selected Vogel to take over for continuity's sake. That Vogel worked out was something of a happy accident, and to Bird's credit he recognized it and rewarded Vogel appropriately. But not, it should be noted, before reaching out to other coaches (Adelman supposedly), and even then Vogel's return was preconditioned on getting better assistants.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The irony of this is that yesterday I had a post all written, typed and placed on the board but deleted before I hit send called "exercising the devil".

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    I guess even the devil can't resist all those holiday treats. . .


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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Our roster was pretty bad during most of Obie's tenure, does anyone dispute that? So the mediocre record is just a reflection of that.
    Yes, I actually do dispute that. I keep going back to this point. Jim said he couldn't make the playoffs with the roster he had last year. Frank Vogel not only took the SAME exact roster and made the playoffs, he then changed everyone else's opinion about the roster.

    I guess I shouldn't be saying everyone.......

    Answer this question. Does David West sign with the Pacers if Jim stays on as the HC?


    HELL NO!

    He (West) has given some pretty specific reasons as to why he picked this team. Because of the youth, the talent, and the deep roster.

    Does trading Mike Dunleavy for George Hill take a bad roster to those positives?

    Hardly.

    But yet that was the only roster change that had happened when West picked the Pacers. It's not like Bird revamped the roster really quick.

    Nope, same exact players. The only thing that changed was the HC who was deciding on who was going to play.

    EDIT: And you can say that you weren't talking about last years roster, but when he had Murphy from two years ago, but I'll go back to the original point.

    Jim told us last season that the Pacers weren't good enough to make the playoffs. Think he regrets saying that now? I sure do.

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    Default Re: JOB's influence on Vogel

    Obrien may have just been here to hold court until all the bad contracts were gone.
    So keeping OBie was a save money move. Also Obrien was brought in to instill some professionalism and discipline, or at least I seem to remember hearing that from Bird.
    I had forgotten about the Posey defense on Howard. Ahhh, Good Times....
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