View Poll Results: Do you like class basketball in Indiana?

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Thread: Do you agree with class basketball?

  1. #1
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    Default Do you agree with class basketball?

    Many say the switch to class basketball was the end of Hoosier Hysteria. Now it may come to an end.

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2011...***-basketball

    Senate Bill No. 84, authored by Senator Jean Leising, would allow school corporations to “participate in an interscholastic athletics association only if the association does not conduct boys’ or girls’ interscholastic basketball games in which the teams are divided into classes.” The Indiana High School Athletic Association operates the state’s four-class basketball tournaments. The change would take effect July 1, 2012. Indiana has had class basketball since the 1997-98 season.
    Last edited by Pacersalltheway10; 12-27-2011 at 03:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    I doubt the bill ever gets voted on though.

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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    I really like going to the title games. I wouldnt get rid of it if it was up to me. I just like watching 4 games at "the bank" opposed to just 1.

    However I wouldn't mind if they had the 4 class champions play each other and name one champion of champions. That would be another fun tournament they could have at "the bank". That would be a good compromise IMO.

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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    I really like going to the title games. I wouldnt get rid of it if it was up to me. I just like watching 4 games at "the bank" opposed to just 1.

    However I wouldn't mind if they had the 4 class champions play each other and name one champion of champions. That would be another fun tournament they could have at "the bank". That would be a good compromise IMO.
    they did that in 1998, but it failed miserably. no one showed up.

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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    They were supposed to do that at the beginning, but it never happend.

    Yes, I'm a fan of class basketball but no, not a fan of this current system. How schools, like Burris or Lay. Catholic get to recruit while being "private" schools and how they get to stay in 1A or 2A classes is absurd.

    It's going to get a little more dicey now that you there aren't any school districts anymore, but that's not going to change very many schools and how they approach athletics.

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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    I was at a Semi-State game in Terre Haute in 1996 before class basketball was introduced. It was Terre Haute North versus New Albany. Both teams were ranked top 5 in the state and had beaten MANY of the top teams in the state themselves. I watched in a standing room only Hulman Center, which normally holds about 10,000 for basketball. The arena was WAY oversold and they let everyone in. I'd say easily there was an extra two or three thousand in there. Game was back and forth, huge cheering sections for both teams, New Albany traveled VERY well. Every basket was intense, and the game came down to the final shot with New Albany winning for the right to go on to the Final Four. To this day it's one of the most intense games I've ever attended and I was at the Memorial Day Miracle.

    A few years later, after class basketball, I was at a Regional game, this time between Terre Haute North and Perry Meridian. The game was for some inexplicable reason played at Greencastle High School. Now, both teams were very good. This was when former Pacer Andre Owens was at Perry Meridian, and Terre Haute North had two guys who played Divsion I ball and were one of only two teams to beat Jon Stewart (RIP) led Lawrence North, eventual 4A champ Bloomington South being the other. To say that the atmosphere was completely different would be the understatement of the year. Nobody came. Nobody cared. Greencastle is only 40 miles from Terre Haute North. There were whole sections of their small gym that were empty. Terre Haute North won going away and Perry's fans were gone by the start of the 4th. The following week at the Semi-State against Bloomington South, I would bet that MAYBE there were 2,000 people total at cavernous Hinkle Fieldhouse to watch 4 of the top teams in the state play each other. It was so quiet in there you could hear parents cheering for their kids over the crowd. There is absolutely NO comparison to how it is now to how it was before. Still even to this day it hasn't and mostly likely never will recover.

    I can see SOME of the argument of why they changed it. The little guys were getting less and less of a chance. I have no doubt whatsoever though that winning a class title today means very little compared to winning a state title from before.

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  10. #7
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    Class basketball is a mistake. It's watered down the tournament and HS basketball in Indiana in general. It's watered down the sectionals especially. AFAIK it's still a financial failure.

    Did it maybe need tweaked to make sure the smaller schools didn't play against the #1 team in the state to start out sectional play... maybe... Did we need 4 champions? No...

    The Tournament of Champions idea didn't work because for one thing, you were crowned state champion the week prior and now you had to go do it again.... And with that in mind it meant 3 of the 'state champions' were ending their season on a loss following the tournament of champions.
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  12. #8
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    I don't care for it.

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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    KILL IT. WITH LOTS OF FIRE.

    New Albany traveled VERY well. Every basket was intense, and the game came down to the final shot with New Albany winning for the right to go on to the Final Four.
    Them and Ben Davis in the double OT game for all the marbles that year is STILL one of my favorite games of all time.
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    I think that going to class basketball has hurt the interest in high school basketball in Indiana but I am not for sure that going back to class basketball will get that interest back.

    I don't know the exact numbers but more and more schools have shut down over the years since class basketball started (schools shut down before that too) and I think that hurts the most. I think that more schools = more teams = more players = more fans.

    I would be surprised if they went back to single class. I understand why they did it but it was dumb to mess with a great tournament. What I don't understand is why it makes sense to have class basketball but it hasn't made any sense to have class wrestling? Now i'm starting to get off track.

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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    I think before they go back to the "good ol' days" they need to ask the kids that have no remembrance of the old way and see if they want to. Do the small school kids really want to have a season where they might win a sectional every once in a while?

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  19. #12
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen View Post
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    I think before they go back to the "good ol' days" they need to ask the kids that have no remembrance of the old way and see if they want to. Do the small school kids really want to have a season where they might win a sectional every once in a while?
    Winning a sectional used to really mean something. They should feel proud to win one on occasion in a single class system.

    To me, the class system is just an extension of the mindset that causes us to give every little kid a trophy for practically just showing up for an activity.

    IMO, one championship per age group/level is plenty.

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  21. #13
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    On one hand I don't like the idea of the government being involved in the decision but OTOH if the numbers are bearing out that the class basketball tournament is choking money away from the schools because of dwindling interest then perhaps government involvement is what is needed.

    Originally there wasn't much support for the switch to class basketball and the IHSAA managed to sweeten the pot by pushing it thru as an experimental change. I believe it was 2 seasons and then it would be revisited. Numbers immediately took a tumble. The perception was it was an absolute failure with the public not liking it and voting with their wallets. Most people I knew assumed this was plenty to cause the experiment to end and return to a single class tournament. Then lo and behold as we approached the revisit date, information began to trickle out that the IHSAA had no intention of going back to the single class tournament.

    I fully believe had the IHSAA been honest all along about their intentions not to return to a single class tournament if it wasn't a success with the paying public there would've been a more organized effort to oppose it at every level including government during that test period. As it was, many were blindsided by the IHSAA overlooking the failure that class basketball was with the public and moving forward with it in the face of that.

    I think a lot of people thought "Let them try it... They'll see nobody wants to see class basketball in Indiana and that will be that"

    Apparently what the public considered a failure the IHSAA was willing to overlook for some perceived greater good....
    Last edited by Bball; 12-28-2011 at 08:41 AM.
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    Bob Gardner should have been tarred and feathered.

    When I was at WBDG, we did an interview with one of his predecessors at the IHSAA one night (about 2004-2005ish), I got the feeling that he thought Gardner and his ilk were fools, but it was definitely great to hear a former IHSAA commish (sorry, can't remember his name at the moment) talking about the need to go back to 1 class ball.

    Yeah, maybe it was getting rarer for the small schools to win it all, but you know what happens when they DID do it? Indiana Basketball IMMORTALITY. Look at Milan.
    Last edited by Sandman21; 12-28-2011 at 09:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    Can we get a show of hands and see how many of you posters went to a small school? By small, I mean 2A or smaller.

    Me.

    I think hearing people from bigger schools talk about how watered down it is, is pretty funny. The last year of single class, Delta was the poster school for the "smaller" schools going toe-to-toe with the big boys. That's a nice little rosy picture and all, except for the fact that Delta graduates over 900 kids per class.

    My school (Monroe Central) had out best team ever just two years ago. Going to the 1A semi-state. Since 2002 we try scheduling 3A or 4A OOC teams, which is why teams like Muncie Central, Marion, New Castle, Jay County, etc are on the schedule. The year we went to semi-state, we beat Muncie Central at Muncie, and it was a very tight game. Muncie Central ended up winning their sectional, but I'm pretty sure they had a losing record when they did it, but they certainly exceeded all expectations. And yet here is my school, winning 19-20 games in the season, and struggling with a very small (and very mediocre) 4A. Now they're a large 3A.



    I've won two sectionals in class basketball, and to try and tell me that I don't appreciate it more than I should, because it's class is absurd. How in the hell do you know what it feels like to win one in class, or in single class for that matter? Even if you do know one, I seriously doubt you know both, and to try and compare them from an internet keyboard is pretty rich.

    You don't know the feelings of the players involved, especially if it's been 30 years since you even sat in a high school classroom.

    It would be like me trying to tell someone else how it felt to go through the Great Depression.


    I just find it funny listening to big school fans talk about how awful it is, and how it took away all the excitement. You mean beating up on schools that are 100 times smaller than you is exciting? Muncie Central and their 1000 class size playing Monroe Central, and our 76 class size, makes the single class system exciting?

    Uh, hardly.

    I vividly remember going to the Wigwam in Anderson in 1997 the year Delta went to the state finals against one of the Bloomington teams. (Purple was their color, so North??) That place was rocking. But Delta wasn't playing a Cowan, or a Wes-Del, when that place was jumping. They were playing New Palestine, you know, another large 3A school.


    Prior to 2000, Monroe Central won 2 sectionals. In 1967 and 1968. 32 years of horrible basketball, and by horrible I mean teams going 3-24. Since 2000, we have won 5 sectionals.

    I can tell you many stories about packed houses that we played in front of. They might not be packed of 9000, but when you're in a very small community, and you're going to play Winchester in their fieldhouse and it's loaded down with 3500-4000 people, and it's standing room only, you can't tell me I would be any more excited.

    Sorry, but you just don't know the feelings of playing in an atmosphere like that, and to try and cheapen my feelings that I had in those situations, because you don't like it, is insulting.


    Maybe if big schools stopped *****ing about the format, and actually continued cheering on whatever team they want, the excitement would still be there.

    But no, big schools struggle to get a couple thousand at their games, while we little schools have people scalping our tickets for 3-4 times face value.


    I'll never forget winning two sectionals and a county championship. And you can think "Oh, look at the little schools winning and it makes them feel good" with the mother tone of voice all you want, but that's what the system is designed to do. It works.

    It's just impossible for communities that only have a couple thousand in their total population to compete with schools from Indy and their hundreds of thousands in population. Or even Muncie with their population of 15,000. Can we compete with Muncie schools? Depends on the school. Ours? Most certainly, depending on the year. Schools like Dalevills, just outside of Muncie, are 1A schools who struggle to win 10 games while playing a small school schedule. It's down right impossible for them.


    Unless you come from a small school, and have had the opportunity to play in this system, how can you try and say what feelings it does or doesn't give?

    EDIT: And I say this system doesn't work, because places like Burris get to recruit and then win 13 of the last 14 2A volleyball state titles. There's no reason why they should be able to recruit and stay in 2A because they have the ability to control their class size.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-28-2011 at 09:29 AM.

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  27. #16
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    For the record, I went to TH South (81). Hate it with a firey passion. Destroy it forever.
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  29. #17
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    As a student athlete at North Central in Sullivan County ( a Class 1A school) , I would love to see it changed back to a single tournament.
    Last edited by Pacersalltheway10; 12-28-2011 at 08:48 PM.

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  31. #18
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    I had the pleasure of playing in the last single class tournament and the first 4 class tournament. Class 1A. We graduated 47 students, including me, my senior year, so we were quite small.

    I'd rather have a single class tournament but I do see the advantages/pros of the separate class system as well as the disadvatages/cons.

  32. #19
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    Class basketball is garbage. It rates up there with the BCS in terms of stupid ideas.

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  34. #20
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    Class basketball is the worst thing that has happened to the state of Indiana in the last 100 years.

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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Can we get a show of hands and see how many of you posters went to a small school? By small, I mean 2A or smaller.

    Me.

    I think hearing people from bigger schools talk about how watered down it is, is pretty funny. The last year of single class, Delta was the poster school for the "smaller" schools going toe-to-toe with the big boys. That's a nice little rosy picture and all, except for the fact that Delta graduates over 900 kids per class.

    My school (Monroe Central) had out best team ever just two years ago. Going to the 1A semi-state. Since 2002 we try scheduling 3A or 4A OOC teams, which is why teams like Muncie Central, Marion, New Castle, Jay County, etc are on the schedule. The year we went to semi-state, we beat Muncie Central at Muncie, and it was a very tight game. Muncie Central ended up winning their sectional, but I'm pretty sure they had a losing record when they did it, but they certainly exceeded all expectations. And yet here is my school, winning 19-20 games in the season, and struggling with a very small (and very mediocre) 4A. Now they're a large 3A.



    I've won two sectionals in class basketball, and to try and tell me that I don't appreciate it more than I should, because it's class is absurd. How in the hell do you know what it feels like to win one in class, or in single class for that matter? Even if you do know one, I seriously doubt you know both, and to try and compare them from an internet keyboard is pretty rich.

    You don't know the feelings of the players involved, especially if it's been 30 years since you even sat in a high school classroom.

    It would be like me trying to tell someone else how it felt to go through the Great Depression.


    I just find it funny listening to big school fans talk about how awful it is, and how it took away all the excitement. You mean beating up on schools that are 100 times smaller than you is exciting? Muncie Central and their 1000 class size playing Monroe Central, and our 76 class size, makes the single class system exciting?

    Uh, hardly.

    I vividly remember going to the Wigwam in Anderson in 1997 the year Delta went to the state finals against one of the Bloomington teams. (Purple was their color, so North??) That place was rocking. But Delta wasn't playing a Cowan, or a Wes-Del, when that place was jumping. They were playing New Palestine, you know, another large 3A school.


    Prior to 2000, Monroe Central won 2 sectionals. In 1967 and 1968. 32 years of horrible basketball, and by horrible I mean teams going 3-24. Since 2000, we have won 5 sectionals.

    I can tell you many stories about packed houses that we played in front of. They might not be packed of 9000, but when you're in a very small community, and you're going to play Winchester in their fieldhouse and it's loaded down with 3500-4000 people, and it's standing room only, you can't tell me I would be any more excited.

    Sorry, but you just don't know the feelings of playing in an atmosphere like that, and to try and cheapen my feelings that I had in those situations, because you don't like it, is insulting.


    Maybe if big schools stopped *****ing about the format, and actually continued cheering on whatever team they want, the excitement would still be there.

    But no, big schools struggle to get a couple thousand at their games, while we little schools have people scalping our tickets for 3-4 times face value.


    I'll never forget winning two sectionals and a county championship. And you can think "Oh, look at the little schools winning and it makes them feel good" with the mother tone of voice all you want, but that's what the system is designed to do. It works.

    It's just impossible for communities that only have a couple thousand in their total population to compete with schools from Indy and their hundreds of thousands in population. Or even Muncie with their population of 15,000. Can we compete with Muncie schools? Depends on the school. Ours? Most certainly, depending on the year. Schools like Dalevills, just outside of Muncie, are 1A schools who struggle to win 10 games while playing a small school schedule. It's down right impossible for them.


    Unless you come from a small school, and have had the opportunity to play in this system, how can you try and say what feelings it does or doesn't give?

    EDIT: And I say this system doesn't work, because places like Burris get to recruit and then win 13 of the last 14 2A volleyball state titles. There's no reason why they should be able to recruit and stay in 2A because they have the ability to control their class size.

    That was a very good account of something in which you obviously have first-hand experience. Thanks. The concerns you have should obviously be taken into account by everyone who has an opinion about class-basketball.

    For the record, I've been to plenty of tournament games since 1998 and I still think there is a TON of energy and excitement amongst fans. I've been to several Sections in Seymour (huge gym) and they are always very intense. I went to a New Albany (my alma-mater) vs. Brownsburg (I guess it was Semi-State?) game in Southport in 2008 and it was INTENSE. Southport has a gym of about 7K and there wasn't an empty seat in the house. Both of these schools were ranked in the top 5 that year (I think) and this was Heyward's Senior year at Brownsburg. It was a close game that Brownsburg won in-route to their state championship. I can't imagine that the game would have been anymore exciting had it been 1996 instead of 2008......

    Massive schools like Brownsburg and New Albany can still have exciting tournament games in the current system. Class basketball doesn't change that.

    But for the record, I'm only 24, so I obviously don't have a good memory of the old system. But I certainly can say that the games I've been to in recent years were plenty exciting. There is still plenty of magic to Indiana High School basketball in March.

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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    I don't hate class basketball nearly as much as a lot of people do, but then again I went to a Brebeuf and we got to play a lot of the big schools anyway and our basketball regional was played at New Castle before they moved to 4A which was always awesome. So I didn't have bad experiences. That being said, now that I've graduated and moved on, I probably wouldn't mind a single class system from a fun standpoint. It'd be cool to see Park Tudor go up against the 4A schools this year with Yogi and Blueitt. There's a lot of issues with class basketball from a recruiting stand point and also the way they separate the classes in terms of school size IMO.

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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    Also, Bloomington South is purple Since. North is like brown and gold I think.

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  40. #24
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    Default Re: Do you agree with class basketball?

    Also, I always thought the atmosphere for class bball was still pretty good, but like I said Brebeuf vs. Chatard is going to be a big game regardless. I'm a big fan of the county and city tournaments. Those were always my favorite games of the bball season.

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  5. I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight
    By Southside_Pacer in forum Indiana Pacers
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    Last Post: 03-01-2004, 10:20 PM

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