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Thread: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

  1. #26
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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    I agree that the best case scenario for the Pistons is one more trip to the lottery. IMO, they are exactly one player away from being set up for the future. I like them at the 1,2,3 and 4 spots. They need a young center, or a shot blocking PF.

    I'm just saying there is enough talent on this roster that if Frank manages it right, they can catch fire early and snag a playoff spot in a eastern conference full of question marks.

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Is this an inside bit I missed out on over the last week?
    Yeah pretty much anybody that says he is not going to average 20ppg and that his numbers were inflated a bit by CP3 is call a hater, you said that so I called you a hater

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    His numbers were just as inflated by having guys like Ariza, Belinelli, peja and MoPete as his starting wings. Cp3 had exactly one go-to guy in New Orleans.

    On Indiana, he has Paul George and Danny Granger. Those guys need shots, to say nothing of Roy Hibbert and Tyler Hansborough, which will limit West's minutes.
    Last edited by Kstat; 12-19-2011 at 03:42 PM.

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yeah pretty much anybody that says he is not going to average 20ppg and that his numbers were inflated a bit by CP3 is call a hater, you said that so I called you a hater
    No you are a hater when all you have to say is how West is not what we needed, even when no one is talking about him. A hater is someone who interjects their negative view about an situation at any chance that it can be interjected. Making the contention more about your objection and distaste, rather than the subject or object of the distaste.

    And I agree. West won't average 20 ppg. And he won't need to.

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  7. #30
    billbradley
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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    This could have it's own thread. Lots of interesting insight here.

    Ainge's airball could signal trouble

    WALTHAM, Mass. -- As the flurry of NBA blockbuster deals and free-agent maneuvers slow to a trickle, and the Celtics absorb the chilling news that a heart ailment will sideline Jeff Green for all of 2011-12, Boston's roster looks eerily familiar to the team that fell to Miami in the Eastern Conference semifinals last season -- minus Green.

    The abbreviated preseason has been nothing but cruel to Celtics boss Danny Ainge, who gamely tried to upgrade his roster in time for a shortened 66-game slate but was thwarted at every turn. The unexpected loss of Green is yet another blow on top of futile attempts to bring in top free agents.

    Thus, the aging Big Three will begin their final stand lamenting the One That Got Away.

    No, not Chris Paul -- forward David West.


    The flirtation with Paul rightfully dominated the headlines in Boston for obvious reasons: CP3 is a sexy, frontline superstar with great skills, marketing appeal and scoring ability at the point guard position. Yet the pursuit of Paul was a high-risk, high-reward scenario from the start. Had Boston acquired him, it would have forfeited its "bridge" player Rajon Rondo and gambled whether Paul would be willing to re-sign with the Celtics amid signals from his camp that he wouldn't.


    That's why the true kick to the gut was losing West to the Indiana Pacers for a two-year, $20 million contract. Unlike the potential Paul transaction, West would have been a straight add to the roster without any need to swap personnel.

    West is coming off a serious knee injury, but according to Pacers president Larry Bird, the Pacers' medical staff examined West and determined he had "one of the most sound post-surgical knees they've seen."

    "He still has a long ways to go in terms of rehab and conditioning," Bird said, "but even so, he looks great."

    The addition of West provides Bird and the Pacers with a promising nucleus that includes Danny Granger (although his name swirled in preseason trade talks), point guard Darren Collison (who played with West in New Orleans), Tyler Hansbrough and George Hill.

    West's decision to choose that group over Boston's three future Hall of Famers was a hugely disappointing and vexing development for the Celtics, who felt West's skills would have nudged them back into championship contender territory.

    Because of salary cap restraints, the Celtics could not offer a two-year deal. They were required to acquire West in a sign-and-trade, which means the contract had to be a minimum of three years. In what team and league sources described as a creative but complicated package, the Celtics were prepared to offer West a four-year contract with a buyout that, in the end, amounted to three years and $29 million. In other words, the average of their offer was just under $10 million (about $9.6 million).

    Count veteran Ray Allen among those who can't believe West chose Indiana over Boston with such a slim difference in compensation.

    "I'm shocked," Allen said. "I don't understand it."


    West was a two-time All-Star for the Hornets, the first during the '08-'09 season when he averaged 21 points, 8.5 rebounds and 39.2 minutes a game. Paul lauded him as an unselfish player who was willing to do the "little things" to help the team win.

    "He's really strong," Bird reported. "He's a bully. He can pick and roll, sets a really good screen. He's not a great rebounder but he can rebound his position. And he can score.

    "David is someone you can drop it down to, and he's going to shoot with either hand. You've got to think about double-teaming him, which obviously helps everyone else on the floor."

    Allen first heard of West's potential interest in Boston last month when Allen was playing golf in Augusta with his private banker, who coincidentally also handled West's financial affairs.

    "He told me how much I would love [West], that he and I were the same kind of guy -- cognitive thinkers," Allen said. "He said West was interested in coming to the Celtics and would be willing to come for less."

    So why does Allen think West had a change of heart?

    "Once it got down to the end, I think his ego kicked back in," Allen said. "He wanted the dollars. I guess it comes down to 'What is a championship worth to you?'

    "Think of all the guys who have made $20 million and could be considered one of the best ever, but they get chided because they never won. We [the Big Three] all had to do less when we won. We're still taking less to make it work. But it's worth it. No one can ever say to KG, Paul or me, 'You guys never got your ring.'"

    Theories abound on why West chose the Pacers over the Celtics. Included among them is the notion that since West opted out of a contract that would have paid him $8.5 million, he needed to "save face" among other players (and agents) by not accepting a Celtics contract that included a first year of just under $8 million, even though the average value over the life of the contract would have been higher.

    The other factor could be that West preferred a two-year deal so he could re-establish himself as the two-time All-Star he was before he was injured, rather than commit for three years to a team with an uncertain future.

    It's one thing to lose a free agent to Los Angeles. It's quite another to lose him to Indiana, a franchise that won just 37 games last season and is a small Midwest market that has always struggled to draw high-caliber free agents.

    The free-agent dilemma has always been a thorny one for Boston. The list of signings range from Xavier McDaniel, who was a serviceable player during his Celtics tenure, to Travis Knight, who inked a seven-year, $22 million contract in 1997 and was a colossal bust. There was the aging Dominique Wilkins, whose one-year foray on the parquet was an unmitigated disaster. Remember Tom Gugliotta? Rasheed Wallace? Dwayne Schintzius?

    You get the idea.

    In the old days, there were two reasons cited why free agents didn't choose the Celtics: They were "too white," and it was too cold in Boston.

    On paper, the first was a head scratcher, since the Celtics fielded the first all-black starting five and the first African-American head coach. Red Auerbach never cared what color you were as long as you could play.

    And, yet, the racial tension was real. Just ask Bill Russell. The late Dennis Johnson and Robert Parish used to tell me they were convinced that when the Celtics won, the local papers put Bird or Kevin McHale's mug on the sports cover, but when they lost, it was the African-Americans whose pictures were featured. No amount of argument on my part during the '80s could convince them that this simply was not so.

    By all accounts the racial stigmas that once thwarted the Celtics are in the rearview mirror and no longer factor in players' decisions. Celtics coach Doc Rivers is revered in these parts almost on a Belichickian level. The New Three, or, if you prefer, the Big Four, are made up of African-American players who are adored by the fan base.

    Yet the appeal of KG, Paul Pierce, Allen and Rondo still can't change the fact Boston cannot sell balmy February afternoons the way Phoenix, Orlando or Los Angeles can.

    Asked why there has never really been a significant free agent for the Celtics, Rivers answered, "Weather. I hate to say that, but it's true."New York and Chicago have that issue too, but they're really big cities, and that's attractive to guys in the league."

    Rivers expressed frustration that West did not join the team. "I'm very disappointed," he conceded, "but we're moving on with the guys we have."

    You may recall that in 2007, when Ainge was in pursuit of Garnett, the player's initial response was to rebuff the Celtics. Clearly cold weather was not a factor; KG, after all, had been playing in Minnesota for his entire career. Nor, he said, was it an aversion to playing in Boston.

    "I knew what the demographics of Boston were," Garnett said. "It wasn't my first choice, but the issue with me was I had been with the same team for so long, I had to get comfortable with the idea of going anywhere.

    "Then, when I looked at it, Boston was identical to the team I was on: a bunch of young guys that weren't very good. I would have been going from one trash can to another."

    Some diligent recruiting by Pierce, Rivers and Ainge softened KG's stance some, but it wasn't until the Celtics acquired Allen that Garnett decided Boston might be able to make a run at a title.

    In other words, build a contender, and they will come.

    Garnett has been a perfect fit in Boston. He eschews the spotlight and isn't interested in celebrity appearances or high profile marketing, so the absence of a "big city" feel is a moot point with him.

    According to the Hornets, the same was true about West.

    "You don't know what [West's] preferences were," Garnett said. "He's an Xavier guy. Maybe Indiana was safe for him. You can't take it personally when guys don't come.

    "To be honest with you, I'm just happy for him that he's healthy and can continue playing."

    The current owners will argue that, in effect, KG was the Celtics' all-time best free agent because they extended his contract as they acquired him. They will also maintain (accurately) that since they've been in control of the team, they have been right at or over the salary cap, thereby limiting their opportunities to make a free-agent splash.

    That will change next season, but with Paul off the market and Dwight Howard expected to follow, either to New Jersey or the Lakers, Boston could well be left holding a big sack of cash with nobody to spend it on.

    Maybe that's the best explanation of all why West isn't in Boston.
    http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/...boston-celtics

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  9. #31
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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Reading the bolded area's, are they all that stupid? I stopped reading it after the bolded Allen statement. It was a freaking sign and trade you morons, and it meant that New Orleans had to receive something they wanted. You don't have anything they want. It's pretty simple.

    What a group of morons.

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  11. #32
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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    Offseason grades for all 30 teams

    PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS

    Key additions: Jamal Crawford (FA), Greg Oden (re-signed), Nolan Smith (draft), Craig Smith (FA)

    Key subtractions: Brandon Roy, Rich Cho (GM)

    No one had a rockier offseason than the Blazers. First, owner Paul Allen inexplicably fired Rich Cho one year into his tenure as GM. Then Allen almost single-handedly prolonged the lockout. And in the course of a single day in December, the Blazers learned that Brandon Roy was retiring for medical reasons, Greg Oden had yet another setback in his rehab and LaMarcus Aldridge's heart irregularities were acting up again.

    Aldridge looks like he'll be fine in a couple of weeks, but you can't say the same about the rest of the Blazers roster. Two years ago we thought the Blazers had the pieces to be a championship contender. Now? The second-best player on their team is either Gerald Wallace or Raymond Felton.

    The Blazers have enough pieces to be solid, but that's about it. Jamal Crawford will provide a scoring boost off the bench, but I'm not sure that translates into wins. Nolan Smith seemed like a bit of a reach in the draft. Craig Smith was a steal in free agency, but a 6-6 power forward isn't the missing piece of the puzzle.

    GRADE: D
    I think Portland is going down the tubes. There should be an interesting scenario coming next off season where Aldridge may go on the block to start the rebuilding process for that team.

    If DC and Hansbrough have really strong seasons, I wonder if we could package them with a pick and West's expiring for Aldridge. He is locked up long term and would be an amazing addition.
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  12. #33
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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Lost some respect for Allen there. I hope we meet in the playoffs and torch their

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersalltheway10 View Post
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    Lost some respect for Allen there. I hope we meet in the playoffs and torch their
    yup, but i also gained an iota of respect for Garnett.

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    But we also don't even know if West will be the same player he was preinjury. If West returns to a 20ppg scorer, I can see an A, but there's a huge question mark there...
    He looked very good in the fanjam, and everything has apparently gone great as far as rehab. We can take some comfort in the fact that he never relied on overhelming athleticism. His Jumper will be unaffected, and his arms are so long that even when throwing it down he never had to get way up there. Typically this surgery will make the knee stronger than before, so if he's mentally confident in it he should be able to return to form. Last year was arguably his best year yet, I think he'll be fine after he shakes off a bit of rust. We're alot deeper than any NO teams he's played on, and Tyler demands more minutes than any backup he's played in front of, so he'll likely get about 30 MPG rather than his normal 35, unless playing him at center at times works out. So i'd predict about 16-17 ppg 8 rpg 48-50% fg, which would be great as a two headed monster with hans.

    As for his prime, based solely on last year, he's still in it, it was as good as any he's ever had pretty much. As for him in NO. His numbers weren't inflated so much because of CP3, but because of a lack of other scoring optiosn period. He put up the same 20 ppg playing with Collison, it wasn't cP3. But Hansbrough, George, Collison, Hill, Hibbert, and Granger are far more offensive options than he ever had to play with in NO. He's on a deep team now, we don't need 20 from him neccesarily, he's capable of it, but we'd be best off having one of the most balanced offensive attacks in the league rather than focusing on 1 or 2 guys who aren't the best at isolations anyhow. DG and West will benefit from all the offensive help since neither are guys you can just hand the ball to and say score, like a kobe or LBJ, even if they can do it to a certain extent.
    Last edited by daschysta; 12-19-2011 at 06:55 PM.

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    This could have it's own thread. Lots of interesting insight here.

    Ainge's airball could signal trouble



    http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/...boston-celtics
    Absolutely fascinating article. Fascinating that they truly look at themselves still as a perennial contender and an obvious choice for free agents... as soon as folks like this start buying into their own BS, it's over.

    Wish them the best of luck

    Really like where this team is headed... hard to believe that as of today, we're legitimately competing for 4 or 5 seed and have the most cap space in the NBA.

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    This could have it's own thread. Lots of interesting insight here.

    Ainge's airball could signal trouble



    http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/...boston-celtics

    Love how all of these big teams act entitled to every FA that hits the market and act shocked when a guy chooses someone else over one of their "big market" cities...

    Allens comments really irritated me, the disbelief that he could have possibly seen anything in Indy over boston, despite the fact that he turned down an extra year, and more total guaranteed salary to come here. Newsflash Rau, indy has never really tried to be big players in Free Agency, and maybe he say more potential long term here than playing with your geriatric asses in Boston... Celtics are done soon, and could fall off in a huge way as soon as next season, wheras the Pacers could improve for years to come and have the youth and capspace to continue getting better...

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    Reading the bolded area's, are they all that stupid? I stopped reading it after the bolded Allen statement. It was a freaking sign and trade you morons, and it meant that New Orleans had to receive something they wanted. You don't have anything they want. It's pretty simple.

    What a group of morons.
    Exactly, if that sign and trade had worked, he would be a Celtic right now, it was not his fault that the sign and traded could not happen.

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    Talking Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    "Key subtractions: Mike Dunleavy"

    This alone may have elevated our evaluation by a full letter grade.

    I kid, I kid.

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Exactly, if that sign and trade had worked, he would be a Celtic right now, it was not his fault that the sign and traded could not happen.
    But wasn't it reported that the trade was done....but West decided to sign with the Pacers instead?

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozwalt72 View Post
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    But wasn't it reported that the trade was done....but West decided to sign with the Pacers instead?
    The Celtics sign and trade didn't go through because NO didn't want to take JO's contract and could not find a 3rd team to take him.

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    KStat don't u know? West is a 25 and 15 guy here, he's got HIBBERT demanding double teams!!!
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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Celtics may be a better bet this year, but the years after? Not so much.

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    KStat don't u know? West is a 25 and 15 guy here, he's got HIBBERT demanding double teams!!!
    The overall IQ of this board falls every time someone sarcastically exaggerates David West's impact. Seriously people, it's getting old already and he's only been on the team for a few days.

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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Even in his prime, West would not score 20 a game on this Pacers team. Too many other shooters, and chris paul is not force-feeding him every time down the floor.
    When I say 20ppg scorer, I mean a guy who can put up 20+ppg if it's asked of him, without too much effort. But you're right, it's unlikely he'll average 20+ this year.

    And no McRoberts wasn't THAT important to this team, but he was a contributer and the Pacers are already trying to find a big who can replace him. The Pacers have had a great offseason no question, I'd just reserve the A until we know if West is healthy, and until we can find the backup big and scorer we need.

  26. #46
    billbradley
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    Default Re: ESPN 2011 offseason grades

    Brunner is on 1070

    tough to give up Rush when you invest 3 years and that pick, but Foster, Hans, and Tyler will be relentless

    thinks we are still getting a wing

    Hill starting at PG is problematic because he is backup SG

    Lance looks like the back up PG

    50/50 West will play, he has been able to practice without issue

    most postitive locker room since '94
    Last edited by billbradley; 12-20-2011 at 12:41 PM.

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