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Thread: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

  1. #126

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Probably that they're going to be in complete rebuild mode. Now why would PM come back, to the Colts, so he can lead a rebuilding charge for two stinking years while Luck sat the bench?

    If they're not going to re-sign Reggie, and the other FA, then it would be best for them to trade Manning and start the rebuilding process with your QB under center so he can learn with this teammates, rather than wasting two years of Manning's time.

    If he comes back to Indy, they're going to try to win from Day 1. It doesn't make any sense not too.



    But getting back to the original issue. Do you really think that we're smart enough to talk about these "issues" but Jim Irsay who has ran a football team for the past 15+ years, and has been around the Colts probably for his entire life, isn't capable of thinking about these things either?

    So he's just going to open up his mouth and say there aren't any "issues" when he hasn't thought past next week? Get out of here.
    A couple of things here. I think the Colts FO thinks about a lot of stuff but they have to work under the salary cap rules and I can point to multiple examples of how that has hindered what they wanted to do or thought they could possibly do..

    I bet you that Polain would admit that he doesn't know what FA's he can bring back because he doesn' t know what the draft will be like and what the market value will be for guys like Mathis, Wayne, Garcon and Saturday.

    I am sure they have a pecking order but each player has a limit to the price they are willing to pay... See Clint Session, Jake Scott and Charlie Johnson and if you want a star player of the past the Edge.

    Do you think the Polains know how much the other teams will offer Mathis, Wayne and Garcon? Of course they don't and thats why they can do all the planning in the world and still have to let one of them walk..

    Again I have prove it with the moves the Colts did in the past. They didn't re-sign everyone and their not going to do it this year.

    The colts roster is constantly being rebuilt and next year won't be a total rebuild either.

    If your at or near the max you can spend and everyone wants a raise then something has to give. You can't pay everyone what they want and someone will have to walk.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 12-30-2011 at 11:47 AM.

  2. #127
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I am sure they have a pecking order but each player has a limit to the price they are willing to pay... See Clint Session, Jake Scott and Charlie Johnson and if you want a star player of the past the Edge.

    Do you think the Polains know how much the other teams will offer Mathis, Wayne and Garcon? Of course they don't and thats why they can do all the planning in the world and still have to let one of them walk..

    Again I have prove it with the moves the Colts did in the past. They didn't re-sign everyone and their not going to do it this year.
    They didn't re-sign those guys because they couldn't afford too, they didn't re-sign them because they thought they could find just as much productivity for cheaper.

    There's a difference, which is why I brought up the article that Polian is the best at getting wins with low salary.

    The Colts have never balked at re-signing the guys they wanted to re-sign. I've already talked about these very issues when pointing out that Freeny was one of the highest paid defensive players while Bob Sanders was one of the highest paid defensive players. With the fact that Marvin got a huge contract extension around the same time, with Reggie getting a nice heafty payday, all while PM was one of the most expensive QBs.


    Not re-signing Clint Session, when you already have his replacement on roster, isn't evidence that the Colts have financial issues.

    They've said there won't be ANY issues. Any is a pretty strong word to use, expecially when you have the always popular "we'll address those when the time comes" PC answer sitting in your backpocket.

  3. #128

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

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    They've said there won't be ANY issues. Any is a pretty strong word to use, expecially when you have the always popular "we'll address those when the time comes" PC answer sitting in your backpocket.
    Again I asked you once to show me where any of the Colts FO said that their won't be any issue in signing their FA's outside of Peyton.

    I agree that Peyton will wear a Colts jersey but Wayne seems to think their will be an issue right?

    How much money do you think the Colts will offer him? 6 years 66 million with a 20 million dollar signing bonus?

  4. #129
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    I've already given you the quote. He said there won't be ANY issues. You're the one trying to say that he's ignoring the FA issues when talking about money, not me.

  5. #130

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

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    I've already given you the quote. He said there won't be ANY issues. You're the one trying to say that he's ignoring the FA issues when talking about money, not me.
    You mean this...
    Irsay, speaking on the NFL Network, said money would not be an issue in Manning's possible return.
    Where is Wayne in that coversation or Mathis, Garcon or Saturday. You know you don't have a quote and its laughable for anyone to say that money won't be an issue with bringing back the Colts FA's.

    IT won't be an issue for bringing back PM but thats all I can get from that quote.

    Again give me a quote that says it won't be an issue in bringing back the COlts FA's.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 12-30-2011 at 03:05 PM.

  6. #131
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    You're position just doesn't even make any logical sense. PM took LESS money than what the Colts were offering. They obviously knew they were going to have to re-sign FA the next offseason, along with their draft picks.

    Why would they offer him more money than he took if it was going to cost them the rest of the team?

    Adding ONE freaking player isn't going to prohibit them from re-signing multiple players.

    It's laughable that you think that the Colts don't understand the cap and where they will be in the future. It's like you think they can only think about one year at a time, and don't plan ahead. How in the world can Bill Polian be considered the one of the best GM's ever, and him not understand future cap situations?

    It's just absurd.


    You don't have any confidence in the FO. I understand that. But to think they're bumbling idiots that doesn't have any clue how to run a football franchise is just insane. Especially when you're talking about a guy that was named the best GM in football at getting wins while keeping a low payroll.

    Clearly he understands how the cap works, and they aren't going to lose their top two WRs because of one freaking rookie.

  7. #132
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Have you thought about the fact that the new NFL CBA cut the rookie wages in half? (or close to it i should say)

    One example, according to an ESPN report citing people familiar with the negotiations: A No. 1 overall draft pick would earn $34 million in five years, including a team option for the fifth season. In the current system, that number could be $78 million through six seasons.

    http://www.sbnation.com/2011/7/12/22...-roger-goodell
    If they didn't get that changed it might have cost the Colts the rest of their team.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-30-2011 at 03:38 PM.

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  9. #133

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

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    You don't have any confidence in the FO. I understand that. But to think they're bumbling idiots that doesn't have any clue how to run a football franchise is just insane. Especially when you're talking about a guy that was named the best GM in football at getting wins while keeping a low payroll.

    Clearly he understands how the cap works, and they aren't going to lose their top two WRs because of one freaking rookie.
    First of all I don't think their bumbling idiots and secondly I think you can't prepare for Manning getting hurt and having the worst record in the league.

    Let me ask you this.. How man Colts players make 6 million or more a year? PM, Wayne, Freeny then who? Dallas nope..

    The colts 4th highest player will be the backup QB? Think about that for a second.

    Donald Brown in his first year counted less than a million against the cap. So no I don't think the Colts factored in 6 million for a backup Qb when they gave Addai his contract extension or any of the other signings they did last year.

    I think they can make it work but someones going to get let go IMO.

  10. #134
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Manning was hurt when he signed the contract. It was planning ahead. He told is that the deal he signed was basically a one year deal with a three year extension, which is why the cap hit is so great next season. If he was coming back, they were gonna pay him big. They're gonna try to win with Peyton, not rebuild. They've always tried winning and never rebuilt the glaring holes
    Just full speed ahead.

    They can't win now by losing all their marquee guys. Its just not gonna happen. If manning is back so will Reggie and company.

    This is polian's last hoorah. He's gonna do everything he can to go out on top with Peyton.

    Sure someone might be left out, but I doubt it. Manning has already set the tone and sacrificed. He took less money than he could have. Irsay said pubically that he would pay whatever to re-sign him. Irsay has never been cheap for those he wants to keep. They make cuts elsewhere on the roster.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-31-2011 at 02:02 PM.

  11. #135

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    This is polian's last hoorah. He's gonna do everything he can to go out on top with Peyton.
    This is not Bill Polian's last hurrah because if it were he would be leaving his son a miserable team. He has to fix this or his son will be leaving not long after him.

  12. #136
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Not true at all. You get the #1 draft pick and trade it. You turn it into whatever teams first round pick along with their second, you also take their first round pick next year along with a fourth or whatever.

    You've retained your FA and you've just added 5 first/second round talent to your roster in 2 years. I gave a pretty far out scenario of how to land barkley next draft in the who would you take thread.

    With Peyton and the other guys back it gives the Colts three drafts to get 7 first-second round talent. Surely they feel like they could draft well enough to restock while winning. It fits their personality of supreme confidence and/or arrogance, which ever you prefer.

  13. #137

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    [QUOTE=Since86;1333211]Not true at all. You get the #1 draft pick and trade it. You turn it into whatever teams first round pick along with their second, you also take their first round pick next year along with a fourth or whatever.

    You've retained your FA and you've just added 5 first/second round talent to your roster in 2 years. I gave a pretty far out scenario of how to land barkley next draft in the who would you take thread.

    With Peyton and the other guys back it gives the Colts three drafts to get 7 first-second round talent. Surely they feel like they could draft well enough to restock while winning. It fits their personality of supreme confidence and/or arrogance, which ever you prefer.[/QUOTE

    Too many assumptions. Luck brings just 3 decent picks (because you traded Luck and got 2 1st and a second and a fourth) and that isn't much if Luck turns out to be the same quality as PM. Take PMs and a few other costly salary Millions and and buy proven FAs. We still will have good picks in the later rounds after Luck and won't have to put off getting the QB of the future.

    If someone told you 12 years ago you could have the next Marino, Elway, Montana, etc. You pass it up so you can get a possible Hughes, Gonzales, or Brown? No way. Guys like this don't come along often enough to pass this up. Luck may not be the next Peyton but neither are we guaranteed your 2 firsts and a second will amount to much.

  14. #138
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    I've repeatedly established that the #1 pick brings in more than 3just picks. I've given quotes from FO executives who've said it and I've given recent historical examples.

    Its not an assumption, its a fact. Trading this #1 pick will get you atleast 3 very high picks along with some fourth or fifth round fillers.

    The only assumption is then being able to flip them to get into position for barkley.

    The odds that Luck is gonna be on Marino Elway or Montana is pretty low. Its less than 50/50. I can't believe you'd say im working off too many assumptions when you've already penned luck one of the greatest qbs already. That's crazy expectations. For every manning there is a Ryan leaf.
    Last edited by Since86; 12-31-2011 at 08:49 PM.

  15. #139
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I've repeatedly established that the #1 pick brings in more than 3just picks. I've given quotes from FO executives who've said it and I've given recent historical examples.

    Its not an assumption, its a fact. Trading this #1 pick will get you atleast 3 very high picks along with some fourth or fifth round fillers.

    The only assumption is then being able to flip them to get into position for barkley.

    The odds that Luck is gonna be on Marino Elway or Montana is pretty low. Its less than 50/50. I can't believe you'd say im working off too many assumptions when you've already penned luck one of the greatest qbs already. That's crazy expectations. For every manning there is a Ryan leaf.
    Barkley is going back to USC. RGIII to the max!

  16. #140
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    OK - how bad do the Colts want me ?? Today is their chance to let the world know.

  17. #141
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I've repeatedly established that the #1 pick brings in more than 3just picks. I've given quotes from FO executives who've said it and I've given recent historical examples.

    Its not an assumption, its a fact. Trading this #1 pick will get you atleast 3 very high picks along with some fourth or fifth round fillers.

    The only assumption is then being able to flip them to get into position for barkley.

    The odds that Luck is gonna be on Marino Elway or Montana is pretty low. Its less than 50/50. I can't believe you'd say im working off too many assumptions when you've already penned luck one of the greatest qbs already. That's crazy expectations. For every manning there is a Ryan leaf.
    Yes, the Luck pick could net us quite a bit. And getting all those high picks is better than the number 2 pick IMO because it's always possible that the number 2 pick could be a bust. But we'd almost be guaranteed some solid players if we had multiple picks to chose from.

    That's why I said the other day that Manning's health is irrelevant as to whether you want that number 1 pick. You want that pick no matter what because it gives you the most options going forward. It covers all the bases.

  18. #142

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I've repeatedly established that the #1 pick brings in more than 3just picks. I've given quotes from FO executives who've said it and I've given recent historical examples.

    Its not an assumption, its a fact. Trading this #1 pick will get you atleast 3 very high picks along with some fourth or fifth round fillers.

    The only assumption is then being able to flip them to get into position for barkley.

    The odds that Luck is gonna be on Marino Elway or Montana is pretty low. Its less than 50/50. I can't believe you'd say im working off too many assumptions when you've already penned luck one of the greatest qbs already. That's crazy expectations. For every manning there is a Ryan leaf.
    We have a better chance of getting to the super Bowl with Luck than with your at least 3 very high picks. We are talking about guys named Manning (plural) Elway, Aikman, Young, etc top picks who led their teams to super bowls. Your odds that Luck is not in an elite category is base on what? You can't have it both ways saying he is not elite but can get us at least 3 very high picks and some 4,5 fillers.

  19. #143
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    No actually you don't. Peyton and eli are the only recent #1 qbs to have gotten to the sb. Peyton is considered one of, if not the greatest qb ever to play and he only has one ring while Trent dilfer has one, tom brady has three, and big ben has two. How many did marino win? How many os alex Smith gonna win? How many is jamrcus Russell gonna win?

    Bob kravtiz replied to an Irsay tweet asking how many #1 picks have won a sb. Bob count 18 since 1970, so 18 out of 40. And that's all players and not just qb. Its a crap shoot.

    If they draft the next Peyton and ignore the other problems on the team, then why would you expect the andrew luck era be any different than the Peyton manning era? He has to turn into one of the greatest ever just to get one, and that's even up in the air. Doesn't happen without a dpoy too.

    Do ot right this time and build a TEAM.

  20. #144
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Bob kravtiz replied to an Irsay tweet asking how many #1 picks have won a sb. Bob count 18 since 1970, so 18 out of 40. And that's all players and not just qb. Its a crap shoot.
    That's almost half the Super Bowls since 1970. Uhhh, I'll take that percentage any day. How many times has a QB drafted #2 overall won an SB since 1970? #3? #4? A QB at #1 is far from a sure thing, but this particular QB is said to be a surer thing, and I like my chances rolling with him. And just because they pick Luck #1 overall doesn't mean they will "ignore" their other problems. They know they are getting older and have problems all across the football field. Now they also have the top pick in the second round, which is where our first round pick usually hovers.

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  22. #145

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No actually you don't. Peyton and eli are the only recent #1 qbs to have gotten to the sb. Peyton is considered one of, if not the greatest qb ever to play and he only has one ring while Trent dilfer has one, tom brady has three, and big ben has two. How many did marino win? How many os alex Smith gonna win? How many is jamrcus Russell gonna win?

    Bob kravtiz replied to an Irsay tweet asking how many #1 picks have won a sb. Bob count 18 since 1970, so 18 out of 40. And that's all players and not just qb. Its a crap shoot.

    If they draft the next Peyton and ignore the other problems on the team, then why would you expect the andrew luck era be any different than the Peyton manning era? He has to turn into one of the greatest ever just to get one, and that's even up in the air. Doesn't happen without a dpoy too.

    Do ot right this time and build a TEAM.
    You mean Aikman and Bledsoe are ancient? Why the cutoff at the Mannings? That's arbitrary. You want to trade Luck for at the most 2 first rounders and a couple of others? Would you have traded PM for that in his prime? Of course not. We'll still rebuild because we will have high lower round picks and It's going to take a couple of years to rebuild. The way you do it is to get your future QB first and not last. That's how you build your TEAM and that's the way the present Colts were built. Manning preceded every offensive player other than Marvin. manning wasn't the missing piece, he was the first piece.

    P.S. see post #144
    Last edited by speakout4; 01-01-2012 at 04:53 PM.

  23. #146
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    I'm torn because I'd love to pick up a lockdown cornerback and a great left tackle.

    But to pass up a promising QB.........I just don't know. Wish I'd seen more of Luck than I did. I do keep thinking of how injured our defense was this year and thinking it has to be better next just because people will be back, I hope. But if we could keep Mathis and Freeny and add a topflight corner...dayum.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

  24. #147

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Draft Luck if you wish, but it would honestly be very sad for me to see Peyton in another uniform. Honestly, reading this part of the board over the past week has made me ill. Can you imagine Broncos fans being excited to see Elway pushed out? Bulls fans excited to see Jordan replaced? Yes yes, Montana played for the Chiefs, point stands. The way some here have been so eager to shove the greatest sports figure ever to play for Indianapolis, or for any Indiana team, out the door makes me sick.

    Had to get that off my chest. If they pick Luck, I hope he does well, and I'll be excited at the prospect of such a highly touted young QB. But hope I haven't seen Manning under center for the last time as a Colt.

  25. #148
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
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    Draft Luck if you wish, but it would honestly be very sad for me to see Peyton in another uniform. Honestly, reading this part of the board over the past week has made me ill. Can you imagine Broncos fans being excited to see Elway pushed out? Bulls fans excited to see Jordan replaced? Yes yes, Montana played for the Chiefs, point stands. The way some here have been so eager to shove the greatest sports figure ever to play for Indianapolis, or for any Indiana team, out the door makes me sick.

    Had to get that off my chest. If they pick Luck, I hope he does well, and I'll be excited at the prospect of such a highly touted young QB. But hope I haven't seen Manning under center for the last time as a Colt.
    I don't think a single person on this board is excited to see Manning gone. Not one. We are excited that we have the incredible asset that is the #1 pick in this draft. We are excited that we have a seemless transition from one franchise quarterback to another. I've said this before: I love Manning. He made football relevant in the state of Indiana, period. He saved the Colts from probably being shipped off to LA by now. He is a model citizen and the biggest star the city has ever (and maybe will ever) had. You can't measure what he has done for this franchise, and I personally think he is the greatest quarterback of all time. The day he leaves will be incredibly emotional, but sometimes you have to do what's best for the long term health of the franchise. It's a tough decision, but it's part of the game.

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  27. #149

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew_Luck View Post
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    OK - how bad do the Colts want me ?? Today is their chance to let the world know.

  28. #150

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

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    I don't think a single person on this board is excited to see Manning gone. Not one. We are excited that we have the incredible asset that is the #1 pick in this draft. We are excited that we have a seemless transition from one franchise quarterback to another. I've said this before: I love Manning. He made football relevant in the state of Indiana, period. He saved the Colts from probably being shipped off to LA by now. He is a model citizen and the biggest star the city has ever (and maybe will ever) had. You can't measure what he has done for this franchise, and I personally think he is the greatest quarterback of all time. The day he leaves will be incredibly emotional, but sometimes you have to do what's best for the long term health of the franchise. It's a tough decision, but it's part of the game.
    Well, I hope no one takes it personally, but the utter glee at losing and Jags avatars, etc, about had me ready to quit the board. And I do feel, not necessarily this board but in general, that Colts fans don't completely appreciate what Manning has done, either because they don't really remember the time before he started or because he's not a Basketball player. Really, I'm not in the habit of gushing over some sports figure at all, but I felt like I had to post it. Again, not going the route of questioning people's 'fanhood' but it's a personal feeling. I'm excited to get Luck if it means avoiding another decade of Jeff George Jack Trudeau QB controversy but if Manning has played his last down as a Colt, it'd feel like he never got the right send off (like Reggie did) and that'd be a bit tragic, at least as sports stories can be called 'tragic.'

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