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Thread: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

  1. #151

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
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    Well, I hope no one takes it personally, but the utter glee at losing and Jags avatars, etc, about had me ready to quit the board. And I do feel, not necessarily this board but in general, that Colts fans don't completely appreciate what Manning has done, either because they don't really remember the time before he started or because he's not a Basketball player. Really, I'm not in the habit of gushing over some sports figure at all, but I felt like I had to post it. Again, not going the route of questioning people's 'fanhood' but it's a personal feeling. I'm excited to get Luck if it means avoiding another decade of Jeff George Jack Trudeau QB controversy but if Manning has played his last down as a Colt, it'd feel like he never got the right send off (like Reggie did) and that'd be a bit tragic, at least as sports stories can be called 'tragic.'


    I think most of us appreciate what Manning has done (although I admit I do think we should've gotten more than one SB out of him but that's more of a management issue than a Manning issue with me) however we also do remember what the Colts were like before(a lot of us anyways) and we don't want to revisit it anytime soon either.

    Look at the Dolphins and Broncos who have waited forever to get that next great QB after Marino and Elway and that QB never came(and they are still waiting)

    We don't want the Colts to end up like that and without a great QB and a small market such as this we're on our way to being irrelevant.

    It would suck if the last memory of Manning as a Colt was him looking at Caldwell in disgust for calling a bad timeout but unfortunately not everyone gets the Elway sendoff.

    When it ends it just ends...

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  3. #152
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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
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    Well, I hope no one takes it personally, but the utter glee at losing and Jags avatars, etc, about had me ready to quit the board. And I do feel, not necessarily this board but in general, that Colts fans don't completely appreciate what Manning has done, either because they don't really remember the time before he started or because he's not a Basketball player. Really, I'm not in the habit of gushing over some sports figure at all, but I felt like I had to post it. Again, not going the route of questioning people's 'fanhood' but it's a personal feeling. I'm excited to get Luck if it means avoiding another decade of Jeff George Jack Trudeau QB controversy but if Manning has played his last down as a Colt, it'd feel like he never got the right send off (like Reggie did) and that'd be a bit tragic, at least as sports stories can be called 'tragic.'
    Of course we appreciate what Peyton has done, and if he were healthy and five years younger, this wouldn't even be a debate. But considering his current condition and age, along with all the key FAs that may be leaving, it's time to look to the future. Peyton can't play forever.

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  5. #153

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    That's almost half the Super Bowls since 1970. Uhhh, I'll take that percentage any day. How many times has a QB drafted #2 overall won an SB since 1970? #3? #4? A QB at #1 is far from a sure thing, but this particular QB is said to be a surer thing, and I like my chances rolling with him. And just because they pick Luck #1 overall doesn't mean they will "ignore" their other problems. They know they are getting older and have problems all across the football field. Now they also have the top pick in the second round, which is where our first round pick usually hovers.
    These arguments can go both ways like you are pointing out Cdash and I have been beating that drum up and down. The whole superbowl ring as a measuring stick for success is silly.

    IF you look at players drafted around pick 25-32 they would probably have more rings than picks 1-10. If your drafted to a superbowl contending team then you should probably have a better shot at winning. I mean how many Barry Sanders type players have been drafted with the 3rd pick vs the Mendenhalls of league that were drafted with a teams late first.

    More draft picks don't promise you anything.. I mean look at the Pats who have over the last 3 years have turned 21 draft picks into 33 by trading down or trading players.

    Much of those picks by the Pats were on defense and its still not a great defense. Their offense is great but thats mainly due to Brady and their savvy TE picks which were a late first and a 4th rounder.

    I would much rather draft a QB who plays a pro style offense and calls his own plays than going after a Qb in the late first or early second and for ever Andy Dalton theres a Pat White, Brain Brohm, Chad Henne, John Beck, Drew Stanton that were also drafted in the second round.

    Give me quality of quantity any day.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    Thanks.

    One more college game to go and then I'm on my way.

    It's going to be fun. Looking forward to it.

    And hey - sorry 'bout Peyton, but come on - 3 neck surgeries ? Yes, he's a legend. Yes, he's got a ring. Yes, he's the best Indy Colt in history. It's time.

    See you folks soon. Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    That's almost half the Super Bowls since 1970. Uhhh, I'll take that percentage any day. How many times has a QB drafted #2 overall won an SB since 1970? #3? #4? A QB at #1 is far from a sure thing, but this particular QB is said to be a surer thing, and I like my chances rolling with him. And just because they pick Luck #1 overall doesn't mean they will "ignore" their other problems. They know they are getting older and have problems all across the football field. Now they also have the top pick in the second round, which is where our first round pick usually hovers.
    That's for TOTAL players, not just limited to QBs. The number of #1 draft picks winning Superbowls would be significantly less because most of the SBs have been dominated by non- #1 draft QBs.

    Like Montana, Steve Young, Big Ben, Tom Brady.

    The list of SB winning QBs that have been drafted #1 overall is considerably shorter than total of #1 draft picks in general winning.

    In fact, only 14 QBs selected just in the first round have won SBs.
    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_f...the_Super_Bowl

    Bradshaw, Plunkett, Aikman, Elway, and both Mannings.

    So out of 14 total first round QBs, only a third of them were selected with the overall #1 pick.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ue_draft_picks
    There's a list of total #1 draft picks. 19 have have been QBs.

    So out of that 19 for 40 overall #1s who have won SB bowls, more than 2/3rds come from other positions.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I don't think a single person on this board is excited to see Manning gone. Not one.
    I don't know why BBfall fan is thanking your post, considering she's already admitted that she would be disappointed if Peyton came back.

    So if she's disappointed that he would come back, I don't think it's that far off to say that she'd be happy to see him gone, considering both are polar opposites.

    So right there is one.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Give me quality of quantity any day.
    Yes, because there is no such thing as quality outside of the QB position.

    Or there isn't any quality outside of Andrew Luck I should say. Every other player sucks then?

    That's what your arguing when you can't entertain the idea of drafting any other players.


    As for what happens with the new GM. IDK. I would like to see them trade the pick, that's still the best way to rebuild a team, but I thought trading the pick fit the personality of Polian quite perfectly. Now, it's just a waiting game.

  10. #158

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yes, because there is no such thing as quality outside of the QB position.

    Or there isn't any quality outside of Andrew Luck I should say. Every other player sucks then?

    That's what your arguing when you can't entertain the idea of drafting any other players.


    As for what happens with the new GM. IDK. I would like to see them trade the pick, that's still the best way to rebuild a team, but I thought trading the pick fit the personality of Polian quite perfectly. Now, it's just a waiting game.
    Well are you a talent evaluator or a scout. I personally am not but when I see the vast majority of people praise Luck for multiple years for his accuracy and decision making which is by far the most important part of QB prospect then I tend to believe them.

    When a ton of talent evaluators are saying that Luck is by far the clear top choice in this draft I tend to believe that. Of course that doesn't mean that there aren't good QB prospects out there but are they better than Luck.. I haven't seen that from a decision making and accuracy stand point. I think the only people who would say RG3 is better is simply from a athletic stand point and to me thats a weak argument when you look at the flops of Vince Young and others.

    Again each draft is different and this isn't a Jamarcus Russel draft. Its a good year to have the number one and Irsay seems to agree.

    And please stop with the hyperbole's. Its insulting and pretty lame to suggest that my post remotely say that.

    I think there will be plenty of talent in the early second and third/fourth round picks which the Colts can rebuild some of the roster with. I just don't think they should give up Luck to do that... sort of like I wouldn't want to give up PM in 1998 to do that.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 01-03-2012 at 11:34 AM.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    You're going to compare RGIII with Vince Young?

    http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/...e-young-1.html

    http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/...fin-iii-1.html

    They're both good athletes and they're both black. The comparisons stop just about right there.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I think there will be plenty of talent in the early second and third/fourth round picks which the Colts can rebuild some of the roster with. I just don't think they should give up Luck to do that... sort of like I wouldn't want to give up PM in 1998 to do that.
    Would you have given up Ryan Leaf to do that? People hang their hat on the whole "Andrew Luck is the best prospect since Peyton Manning." No, actually he's the best prospect since Peyton Manning AND Ryan Leaf.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Would you have given up Ryan Leaf to do that? People hang their hat on the whole "Andrew Luck is the best prospect since Peyton Manning." No, actually he's the best prospect since Peyton Manning AND Ryan Leaf.
    If you are going to argue that there is no sure thing then obviously you win but if you want to rely on stats then building around a highly regarded college QB makes much more sense than building around any other position. Sure there are difference makers who were picked #1 but do they have the impact of a Manning, Brees, or other great QBs. No other position influences the game as consistently as the QB does.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    The Colts have had the biggest impact player in the entire league on their roster for the past 11 seasons (not including this one), and they only have one SB ring to show for it.

    QBs with less of an impact on the game than Peyton have more rings than Peyton does.

    That's my point. We've already wasted 10 years of the Greatest QB to ever play the game, because we relied solely on him, rather than buidling a good team.

    Excuse me for not wanting to go down the same exact path so soon.


    Or atleast I should have said "wanted." With Polian's gone, who knows what they'll do. I have a lot more faith in a new FO building an actual team with Andrew Luck than I did with Polian.

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  16. #163

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yes, because there is no such thing as quality outside of the QB position.

    Or there isn't any quality outside of Andrew Luck I should say. Every other player sucks then?

    That's what your arguing when you can't entertain the idea of drafting any other players.


    As for what happens with the new GM. IDK. I would like to see them trade the pick, that's still the best way to rebuild a team, but I thought trading the pick fit the personality of Polian quite perfectly. Now, it's just a waiting game.
    You keep saying this but show me proof. Was it the right move for the Chargers even though they were forced to do it? What have they won.

    And as for Vince and RG3 yes I will compare them. Doesn't mean one isn't better than the other but both are dual threat Qbs and are highly successful being as such. That also doesn't mean you should trade down to get one or reach for one.

    For the person who thinks you know the right path to go about this not one colts FO staff has said that we should trade down in this draft for more picks. IRsay hasn't said it.. Polain hasn't said it?? What am I missing?

    Maybe your the one who should shoot the resume over to 56th street if you think your right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    That's my point. We've already wasted 10 years of the Greatest QB to ever play the game, because we relied solely on him, rather than buidling a good team
    .
    Relying solely on him is the GM's and coaches fault not the players fault.

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    Or atleast I should have said "wanted." With Polian's gone, who knows what they'll do. I have a lot more faith in a new FO building an actual team with Andrew Luck than I did with Polian.
    I have always been genuinely confused by this. In one thread you'll argue that Polain is a HOF GM and has been voted best GM by Forbes for working with players with less team salary.

    So which one is it? You a fan of Polain or not? Are you happy with 2 superbowl appearances winning one or are you not?
    Last edited by Gamble1; 01-03-2012 at 01:14 PM.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The Colts have had the biggest impact player in the entire league on their roster for the past 11 seasons (not including this one), and they only have one SB ring to show for it.

    QBs with less of an impact on the game than Peyton have more rings than Peyton does.

    That's my point. We've already wasted 10 years of the Greatest QB to ever play the game, because we relied solely on him, rather than buidling a good team.

    Excuse me for not wanting to go down the same exact path so soon.


    Or atleast I should have said "wanted." With Polian's gone, who knows what they'll do. I have a lot more faith in a new FO building an actual team with Andrew Luck than I did with Polian.

    True, having an all-world Quarterback guarantees nothing. But let's say hypothetically that Manning doesn't play again (again, this is purely hypothetical as none of us know what's going to happen with him). QB is obviously a major need if Manning can't play again as we saw how awful our team was this season with the pitiful quarterbacks we threw out there. If we just had an average NFL quarterback on our team, we could have maybe won 6 or so games. Our team is flawed, but it's not so bad that it would be 2-14 with someone competent playing QB.

    So if you draft Luck (again, assuming for argument's sake that Peyton doesn't come back), then I'd say he at least gives you a pretty good chance at filling that massive QB void. Then in years to follow you can fill in the other gaps on the team. It's not a one or the other thing. Just because we draft an other elite quarterback doesn't mean that we can't try to build a great defense too. A competent GM should be able to do both. Things would probably be a bit rough in the early years of Luck, so we would probably have some more high draft picks in years to come. And if you didn't re-sign any of these old FA's on our roster, you could maybe direct some of that money to younger FA's.

    Having an elite Quarterback certainly doesn't guarantee you a Super Bowl. Nothing does. But in today's NFL, it almost guarantees that you will field a very competitive team. Three of the best teams (Packers, Saints, Pats) are teams with great quarterbacks and suspect defenses. Of course, no one knows how good Luck will be, but if Manning's health is sketchy then I think it's worth a shot. Hopefully a competent GM could build a complete roster around him.

    Just because we made mistakes with Manning doesn't mean that we have to make them again. And while there was certainly an over-reliance on Peyton in recent years, Peyton and the players themselves bear a decent amount of the blame for not having more than one ring. You'll probably agree with what I'm about to say, but I'll say it anyway: It's not like the front office is the only reason Peyton doesn't have more rings.....far from it, actually. That 2005 Colts team was EASILY the best Colts team I've ever seen (loaded offense AND defense), and I think most would agree with me on that. We actually had a competent defense that year as Sanders was completely healthy and Corey Simon played (with the usual contributions from Freeney and Mathis of course). But we couldn't take care of business at home against the Steelers. That falls 100% on the players. That team was easily good enough to win the Super Bowl that year and should have. Beat the Steelers at home and then you have Denver at the Dome for a third straight year (we would have killed them again) and then the Seahawks in the Super Bowl at Detroit (we would have had a ton of fans there). But we failed to get the job done and that falls on Peyton, the players, and the coaching staff.

    Same with two years ago. Maybe that 09 team was flawed in some areas and was carried by Peyton all year, but we were still in a position to beat the Saints. If Garcon doesn't drop that gimme, or if Hank Basket recovers the on-side kick, or if Peyton doesn't throw that pick 6....then maybe we have that second Super Bowl ring. Then what's the criticism on Polian? That he only won 2 rings with Manning?

    The main reasons I wanted Polian gone were 1) Sometimes you just need change for change's sake (see Walsh with the Pacers) and 2) I think he had become too hostile and arrogant toward the fans and Indianapolis press. Clearly those at the Star despised him, as is evidenced by Wilson calling Polian out this year (and vise-versa when Polian called Kravitz a "rat" or when he went to an ESPN New York station to break news on Manning, clearly an "F U" to the Indy press). The President of a team in a small market having such a hostile relationship with the local press is never a good thing. Irsay, a guy who prides himself on the Colts' relationship with the Indy community, clearly had to be taking note of that. And of course, our recent drafts were very suspect and the refusal to change philosophy in certain areas was unforgivable. When you look at all of that together, it was definitely time for the man to go. But while I'm certainly not the biggest Polian fan, I don't think it's completely fair to say that Peyton would have more rings if only he didn't have a poor front office. Peyton would have more rings if he and the players executed better in certain situations (2005 and 2009 particularly). It's as simple as that.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-03-2012 at 01:57 PM.

  18. #165

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

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    Would you have given up Ryan Leaf to do that? People hang their hat on the whole "Andrew Luck is the best prospect since Peyton Manning." No, actually he's the best prospect since Peyton Manning AND Ryan Leaf.
    Let me put it like this... "IF" Luck shows up overweight and blows off the Colts interview like Ryan Leaf did then I'll get behind trading the first overall pick for RG3 or another QB. You see that happening?? Me neither.. And everyone acts like Leaf and Manning were close to be picking number one. If you show up fat and lazy to your job interview,,,, check that you don't show up at all what is your real chances of getting hired?

    Manning and Leaf wasn't as close as people make it out to be.

    The difference between Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning was that one was willing to make football his life and the other one was not.. I think its safe to say that Luck is all business unlike Leaf, Leinart, Young, Russel or any of the first round draft bust at QB.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 01-03-2012 at 01:30 PM.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I have always been genuinely confused by this. In one thread you'll argue that Polain is a HOF GM and has been voted best GM by Forbes for working with players with less team salary.

    So which one is it? You a fan of Polain or not? Are you happy with 2 superbowl appearances winning one or are you not?
    I think what makes him so great is also his down fall, which is a pretty common theme throughout history on any and every level.

    Hubris.

    Polian knows he's the smartest man in the room, and it puts him into trouble. Sometimes you're too smart for your own good, especially when it's coupled with extreme arrogance.

    And I'm not happy with two superbowl appearances. If Bill didn't stick his head in his *** when talking about the defense, and they actually focused on getting better through the draft, the Colts could have won more.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Let me put it like this... "IF" Luck shows up overweight and blows off the Colts interview like Ryan Leaf did then I'll get behind trading the first overall pick for RG3 or another QB. You see that happening?? Me neither.. And everyone acts like Leaf and Manning were close to be picking number one. If you show up fat and lazy to your job interview,,,, check that you don't show up at all what is your real chances of getting hired?

    Manning and Leaf wasn't as close as people make it out to be.

    The difference between Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning was that one was willing to make football his life and the other one was not.. I think its safe to say that Luck is all business unlike Leaf, Leinart, Young, Russel or any of the first round draft bust at QB.
    Not every QB is a bust because of this. Alex Smith has always been a hard worker, or atleast I've never been aware of any phsyical issues, or how he studys their opponents/playbook.

    Yet people saw more talent in him than they did Aaron Rodgers.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Sollozzo,

    I've said it from the beginning. If Peyton isn't coming back, or if he's a question mark, you draft Andrew Luck.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    What a crazy time this is for Indy. We're about to host the freaking Super Bowl. Then once that's done, the attention will IMMEDIATELY shift to what happens with Manning/Luck.

    These next couple of months will interesting to say the least....

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Not every QB is a bust because of this. Alex Smith has always been a hard worker, or atleast I've never been aware of any phsyical issues, or how he studys their opponents/playbook.

    Yet people saw more talent in him than they did Aaron Rodgers.
    The 2005 Qb draft class was considered weak by many and not everyone thought Smith was heads above Rodgers..

    Alex Smith was a smart prospect out of a small program and I wonder how having 6 offensive coordinators in 6 years has affected him. I think thats a tough challenge for anyone and I am not sure how even PM would have done early in his pro career with 6 OC's.

    Also consider this, one of the reasons the niners didn't choose Rodgers is because he rubbed Nolan the wrong way for some reason. Other teams saw potential for Rodgers but like many draft day drops a team need at a certain position trumps a lot of other things.

    Either way Alex Smith was in a weak QB draft class and he wasn't nearly a clear number one as Luck is now.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    There isn't a single team in the league, maybe other than GB, that had any clue Aaron Rodgers was going to be as good as he is.

    While it might not have been a deep draft, the evaluation on the players was off and their expectations had nothing to do with their evaulations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NF...yer_selections

    There's the draft. Where players were taken doesn't come close to where they should have been taken.

    Roddy White was the 6th WR taken in that draft. Following WRs like Mike Williams, Braylon Edwards, Troy Williamson (who?), Matt Jones and Mark Clayton.

    Was the the 6th best WR in that draft? Hardly.

    The draft is always a crapshoot, whether your talking about QBs or all positions.

    And I know I've said this, but I'll say it again for the record. I think Andrew Luck is going to be good. GOAT good? I doubt it, but he's gonna be good.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The Colts have had the biggest impact player in the entire league on their roster for the past 11 seasons (not including this one), and they only have one SB ring to show for it.

    QBs with less of an impact on the game than Peyton have more rings than Peyton does.

    That's my point. We've already wasted 10 years of the Greatest QB to ever play the game, because we relied solely on him, rather than buidling a good team.

    Excuse me for not wanting to go down the same exact path so soon.


    Or atleast I should have said "wanted." With Polian's gone, who knows what they'll do. I have a lot more faith in a new FO building an actual team with Andrew Luck than I did with Polian.
    How many SBs are won by teams that do not have an exceptional QB? How many SBs are consistently won by impact players at other positions. To argue that because the colts did not win more often with Manning is to ignore all the other issues that this team has. You have to have a great QB plus, not only.

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    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    How many SBs are won by teams that do not have an exceptional QB? How many SBs are consistently won by impact players at other positions. To argue that because the colts did not win more often with Manning is to ignore all the other issues that this team has. You have to have a great QB plus, not only.
    Where did I say they didn't need exception QB play? I haven't.

    I said that they don't need Andrew Luck to win Super Bowls.

  30. #174

    Default Re: NFL Draft Watch: The Race for Luck

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    There isn't a single team in the league, maybe other than GB, that had any clue Aaron Rodgers was going to be as good as he is.

    While it might not have been a deep draft, the evaluation on the players was off and their expectations had nothing to do with their evaulations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NF...yer_selections

    There's the draft. Where players were taken doesn't come close to where they should have been taken.

    Roddy White was the 6th WR taken in that draft. Following WRs like Mike Williams, Braylon Edwards, Troy Williamson (who?), Matt Jones and Mark Clayton.



    Was the the 6th best WR in that draft? Hardly.

    The draft is always a crapshoot, whether your talking about QBs or all positions.

    And I know I've said this, but I'll say it again for the record. I think Andrew Luck is going to be good. GOAT good? I doubt it, but he's gonna be good.
    Certain drafts are more of a crap shoot than others and this one 2005 was pretty much a mess but I agree that no one knew Rodgers would be this good but there are always a couple of guys that surprise people and it should be noted that Rodgers wouldn't be this good if he didn't work on his throwing motion.

    As far as Alex over Rodgers it wasn't a huge difference IMO. Rodgers fell because of team needs just like guys last year. No way should have Ponder have gone to the vikings and everyone thought that when he was drafted 12th. Teams reach and guys fall based a lot on needs. Who really needed a QB in 2005?
    Last edited by Gamble1; 01-03-2012 at 07:02 PM.

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