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Thread: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    So what was that...A few days after the first one? Can he get that much out of his system in that time? What do you do, watch a Sex and the City Marathon?
    I'm not an expert on drugs and hormones in the body, but I was told once by a drug tester that Marijuana and LSD are the ONLY chemicals they test for that stay in your system for any length of time. Pretty much anything else is gone as soon as your body burns through it and flushes it out. I don't know how accurate this is but he seemed to know what he was talking about.

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    I will respond later with my thoughts when I have more time and not on my phone. I'm a board certified forensic toxicologist by trade. Didn't want to disclose that earlier, but thought I should now. I've testified in court on many occasion about chain of custody, sample storage, tox results interpretation, metabolism/excretion of drugs, etc.

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    Perhaps I am just ignorant on the issue (I am not a huge baseball fan) but can someone please help me understand this. A player tested positive with a rate that was huge (I heard on the radio 50X the normal limit, then I heard 2X. Regardless, it was positive) The MLB and PA has an agreement where the sample goes right out to a FEDEX facility and it shipped to the lab. If the facility is closed, you can store it overnight and then mail it the next business day. Am I correct in my understanding that the player got off soly because the test collector simply made a mistake and thought the FEDEX location was closed when in fact it was open. Lastly, why is there not a better way to make sure samples are not tampered with. Why not have a screw tab label or tab or something that if broken......invalidates the whole process. Lastly, why not have the player re-test as soon as the sample was labeled as invalid.
    It was around 20:1. You are correct about the process. Braun did 'get off on a technicality'. The samples do contain a tamper-proof seal/label that if broken before the specimen enters the laboratory, then the sample is rendered invalid. The specimens arrived at the laboratory intact, with all labels intact, and the collector's initials and Ryan Braun's initials and dates on the label. No one disputes that fact. The dispute only occurs on the fact that the collector stored it at home as there were no facilities open.

    Being this is MLB testing that is collectively bargained, it is a little different than what would end up in the court system. I could easily see this in a court system and have it explained thoroughly what occurred and that the specimen was truly intact with all seals unbroken and the testing has a good possiblity of being rendered as legitimate and true. I've testified in many courtrooms about the chain of custody and the speicmen storage procedures.
    Last edited by Stryder; 02-28-2012 at 07:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    If the seal was tamper proof and clearly not broken is there any rationale, given the broken chain of custody, that would explain a false positive? IE... what if it was stored in his trunk overnight, would that have mattered? Would wild temperature fluctuations cause something to change and trigger a false positive?
    No. It wasn't a false positive. This is a highly specific mass spectrometry based assay (chemical fingerprint, carbon isotopes). Even if it was stored in his trunk overnight, the synthetic testosterone would have DEGRADED causing an even lower result. Testosterone typically have a testosterone:epitesterone ratio of 1:1 or 2:1. I know the when the ratio reaches 4:1, WADA (World Anti-doping agency) kicks up to a test for the synthetic testosterone. Braun tested positive at 20:1. As a frame of reference, do you remember Floyd Landis of Tour de France fame? He was positive at 11:1.

    In biological specimens, parent drugs do not get enhanced as the degradation process (through storage, temperature, etc.) occurs. Metabolites could possibly form. As an example, the nitrobenzodiazepines are inherently unstable in biological matrices (blood, urine). At room temperature, Klonopin (parent drug Clonazepam) will degrade to its metabolite (7-aminoclonazepam) over the period of 24-48 hours. It does not work the other way around. The same goes for another benzodiazepines (Flunitrazepam (Rohypnol) to its 7-amino metabolite).

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    On the other hand, if I read correctly that the second sample taken immediately after was negative, how can that be explained? Can that much testosterone leave your system that fast? Does anyone know?
    Where are the documented results of the second sample?

    Also, how long after the first sample was the second sample collected? i.e. what was the time difference between the two?

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    So what was that...A few days after the first one? Can he get that much out of his system in that time? What do you do, watch a Sex and the City Marathon?
    In the industry, turnaround times and notification times can vary widely. Until we hear about the true time difference between the samples, it is all speculation.

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I'm not an expert on drugs and hormones in the body, but I was told once by a drug tester that Marijuana and LSD are the ONLY chemicals they test for that stay in your system for any length of time. Pretty much anything else is gone as soon as your body burns through it and flushes it out. I don't know how accurate this is but he seemed to know what he was talking about.
    Most drugs are excreted in to urine and retained over a certain period of time as they are eliminated from the body. It is during this time that a drug is detected in urine during a urine drug test. The detection window for the different drugs and drug classes is variable. Detection windows are approximate and depend highly on many factors including the nature of the drug, the individualís metabolism, the dosage of the drug, and the dosing regimen of the drug.

    Examples:

    Amphetamines (i.e. Adderall, Ecstacy, Methamphetamine) and LSD are detectable for 1-5 days.

    Barbiturates (i.e. Fiorinal, Seconal) are detectable for 1-30 days depending on which specific barbiturate it is.

    Benzodiazepines (i.e. Valium, Xanax, Klonopin), Buprenorphine (Suboxone), and Methadone are detectable for 1-10 days depending on the individual drug.

    Cannabinoids (Cannabis, Marijuana) is detectable for 1-4 days in the urine of an occasional user or 1-30 days in the urine of a frequent user.

    Cocaine is detectable for 1-4 days.

    Alcohol (Ethanol) is detectable for 1-24 hours; ethanol metabolites are detectable for 1-3 days.

    Opiates/Opioids (i.e. Codeine, Morphine, Heroin, Vicodin, Oxycodone) are detectable for 1-4 days.

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    Man, that's a lot of good info.

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    Also, I would assume that Braun's metabolism would be off the charts since he's a pro athlete and would be near the low end of your time windows above.

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    Collector in Braun case: I followed protocol
    A man identifying himself as the collector who took Ryan Braun's urine samples last fall said he followed the same protocol with the Milwaukee Brewers slugger as he had with hundreds of previous samples.

    In an email sent Tuesday to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney and other media outlets, Dino Laurenzi Jr. said he issued the statement "to set the record straight" about his role in testing Braun, whose 50-game suspension under baseball's drug policy was overturned Thursday.

    Laurenzi said that at the time of the test, he obtained a signature from the NL MVP, stipulating that the samples were capped and sealed in his presence.

    "This situation has caused great emotional distress for me and my family. I have worked hard my entire life, have performed my job duties with integrity and professionalism, and have done so with respect to this matter and all other collections in which I have participated," Laurenzi said, directing all further requests for comment to his lawyer.

    Laurenzi's lawyer, Boyd M. Johnson III of WilmerHale, said Laurenzi would have no further comment.

    "Mr. Laurenzi just wanted to set the record straight, and now he has done exactly that," Johnson said in a statement.

    Braun tested positive in October for elevated testosterone, and ESPN's "Outside The Lines" revealed the positive test in December. His case marked the first time a baseball player has successfully challenged a drug-related penalty in a grievance.

    Friday, Braun proclaimed his innocence at a news conference. He said the collector, whom he did not identify by name, had kept the samples for 44 hours in his home, believing that the FedEx office he was to use to ship the samples for testing was closed.

    Braun said Friday that at least five FedEx locations within 5 miles were open until 9 p.m. ET and there also was a 24-hour location. He said the sample wasn't left with FedEx until 1:30 p.m. on Oct. 3.

    Braun said because of the delay, the testing was "fatally flawed."

    "I don't honestly know what happened to it in that 44-hour period," he said.

    Tuesday, Laurenzi said he was following protocols set by Comprehensive Drug Testing, his employer, in keeping the samples until they could be shipped. He said the samples never left his custody and that no one other than his wife was in his home while the samples were stored.


    "Given the lateness of the hour that I completed my collections, there was no FedEx office located within 50 miles of Miller Park that would ship packages that day or Sunday. Therefore, the earliest that the specimens could be shipped was Monday, October 3," Laurenzi said.

    "In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office," Laurenzi said in the statement.

    Laurenzi said in the statement that he stored the samples in a "FedEx Clinic Pack in a Rubbermaid container in my office which is located in my basement. My basement office is sufficiently cool to store urine samples."
    He added: "The protocol has been in place since 2005 when I started with CDT and there have been other occasions when I have had to store samples in my home for at least one day, all without incident."


    Laurenzi said he has been a collector for Comprehensive Drug Testing since 2005, conducting more than 600 collections since then, in addition to postseason collections for five major league teams.

    "I followed the same procedure in collecting Mr. Braun's sample as I did in the hundreds of other samples I collected under the program," Laurenzi said of his collection of Braun's urine samples on Oct. 1.

    "I sealed the bottles containing Mr. Braun's A and B samples with specially numbered, tamper-resistant seals, and Mr. Braun signed a form certifying, among other things, that the specimens were capped and sealed in his presence and that the specimen identification numbers on the top of the form matched those on the seals."

    Although MLB officials would not comment on the record, sources told ESPN legal analyst Lester Munson they are still convinced that the sample tested came from Braun, and that the positive test result was correct. They emphasized that the FedEx package that arrived at the Montreal laboratory handling the test was sealed three times with tamper-proof seals -- one on the box, one on a plastic bag inside the box, and one on the vial that contained the urine.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/76...owed-protocols

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    I think the real lesson here is that the sampling and testing company needs better handling and storage procedures that both sides agree to. Maybe they have been fine up until now, but the arbitrators decision changes the game.

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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    Also, I would assume that Braun's metabolism would be off the charts since he's a pro athlete and would be near the low end of your time windows above.
    Well, and--if he was guilty--he would be working out and chugging water frantically after the first test, of course.

    Interesting speculation by a guy from WADA on the Gottlieb show yesterday: he said Braun could have been sabotaged by someone rubbing a cream with synthetic testosterone on his body (no jokes please). Far-fetched, but strange that a WADA guy would bring it up.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

    I bet it would suck to be outside in high-90 degree heat and have a herpes flare-up inside those pants and cup.

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