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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

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  • Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

    It's a real question.

    On one of the many threads this week, someone (and I can't remember who or I'd quote it) said something to the effect of, "if a player fits your need he isn't overpaid".

    That's obviously an oversimplification, but we get off on this topic for a lot of our discussions. Is a player overpaid under some of these circumstances:

    - if he fills the final niche a team needs to win a championship?
    - if the team makes a profit even after paying him a high salary?
    - if a less productive player makes more money?
    - if he was a low draft pick putting up the same numbers as a higher draft pick?
    - if others at his draft position are more productive?
    - if he is a fan favorite?

    and there are probably lots more.

    It just strikes me that "thus-and-so is overpaid" is easy to say, but I think everyone means something different when they say it.

    I think it is also common to assess a player on your own team as overpaid, but how do you really make that judgement for a player on another team? Is it based on what they bring to THEIR team or what they would bring to YOUR team?
    BillS

    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

  • #2
    Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

    I think you're trying a bit hard to rationalize the contract of whoever the Pacers get before they actually get him...

    Being overpaid and being a bad acquisition are two different things, though.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

      Originally posted by Kstat View Post
      I think you're trying a bit hard to rationalize the contract of whoever the Pacers get before they actually get him....


      Maybe, because one of the things I left out is "if you are a small market and have to pay more than a NY or LA would have to pay".

      But I'm looking more for other people's answers.
      BillS

      A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
      Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

        Ask Detroit Pistons fans. I think they have a couple of guys who fit the overpaid bill.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

          Just wait and see who they get first, and for how much.

          One thing I brought up in the other thread is, if you go out and get Gasol or Nene for near-max money, Roy Hibbert won't be asking for any less next year.
          Last edited by Kstat; 12-02-2011, 06:00 PM.

          It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

          Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
          Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
          NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

            A Wintermute post that addressed this topic, I endorse it.


            Originally posted by wintermute View Post
            Some thoughts...

            Benchmarking Nene's upcoming $14m+ salary against Aldridge's $12m makes as much sense as saying that Nene would have been cheaper than Murphleavy. Aldridge is on a nice contract; if he were on the market now, he'd be getting a max deal. You might as well say you'd rather have LeBron at $15m than Nene at $14m - true, but that deal isn't available.

            Whichever player we end up getting, what's important is that we get relative value. Is Nene at $14m expensive while West at $8m is cheap? The absolute dollar values don't matter; what does matter is whether other GMs think they are worth those deals. If you can easily move Nene at $14m, but you find that West at $8m to be unmovable, then the first is a good deal while the second isn't. By the way, for the record I consider $14m to be expensive for Nene and $8m to be reasonable for West. But I can understand why other teams might be more willing to pay a premium for Nene.

            Value for money is all important. Signing a mediocre player for small dollars could still be a bad deal (cf. Dahntay) if no one else were willing to pay him that much. The best that can be said about small bad contracts is that they aren't crippling, but they don't help either. Fortunately for the Pacers, they've brought in a consultant who has a nice track record getting value from FA. That would be Pritchard, who in 2009 went for need first and tried to sign Hedo (which failed, fortunately for Pritchard). Portland then looked for value, signing Millsap to an offer sheet (matched by Utah, but still regarded as one of the best bargains in the league) and then finally landing Andre Miller, who Portland has since managed to turn into Felton. Then in 2010, Pritchard signed Wes Matthews to one of the few MLE contracts which can be considered a good deal, and now Matthews is a trade asset for Portland.

            This is the kind of approach I hope to see us take in FA, especially since it doesn't look like there's a perfect fit for us out there. Grab a few assets, and either they'll work out here long term or you can turn them into picks + cap space for another try at FA next year.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

              Originally posted by pacers74 View Post
              Ask Detroit Pistons fans. I think they have a couple of guys who fit the overpaid bill.
              bingo.

              It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

              Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
              Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
              NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

                Originally posted by CooperManning View Post
                A Wintermute post that addressed this topic, I endorse it.
                Thanks Yeah, it's the market definition of overpaid/underpaid

                To expand a bit further Bill, I think all those things you listed are rationalizations for overpaying a player. It doesn't stop that player being regarded as overpaid, though.
                Last edited by wintermute; 12-02-2011, 06:00 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

                  Someone who is paid alot but does not have any positive impact on the team. I would consider that overpaid. Case in point, Troy Murphy.

                  If we sign some guy to alot of dough and he improves our record and plays a significant role in taking us deep in the playoffs. Well, it's worth it to us as fans then.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

                    Who is overpaid?

                    Every NBA player
                    Sittin on top of the world!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

                      (Team needs including cap and position.)

                      In general - market value vs player production.

                      Best available player vs market value vs team needs.

                      If one strays to far above market value, one puts themselves in a high probability of failure.

                      The following...based on say 20% overpaying market value... The better the player, the more you spend. The more you spend the bigger the failure.

                      You know you have failed when the contract is to high, to long and you can't rid off it, doesn't matter on team needs when you jeopardize the teams future. This happens all to often to all teams.

                      Unfortunately, it's a slippery slope appraising humans. Kind of like a box of chocolates...you never know what your gonna get.

                      Craps anyone!
                      Garbage players get 1st round picks, (WTF)! All of the NBA must hate the Pacers! LOL

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

                        Every single situation is different. So, only very high level rules apply and not all the time.

                        One clear situation is where you overpay for a player who is "the last piece" for a ring.

                        But in today's NBA where the stars pick and choose where they will play, an NBA championship for 75% of the teams is not attainable. The only realistic prize is a decent playoff run. Perhaps they compete in the ECF, for example.

                        So, for the Pacers and most NBA teams, overpaying for a borderline all-star such that you make the playoffs is the best you can hope for. Really, competing in the ECF is about as good as it's getting...so if you can get that last piece to get past the 2nd round...you do it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?




                          this
                          Last edited by pacer4ever; 12-02-2011, 08:32 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

                            Originally posted by Kstat View Post
                            I think you're trying a bit hard to rationalize the contract of whoever the Pacers get before they actually get him...
                            I would argue it could every bit be in reaction to SI calling Danny overpaid.

                            Being overpaid and being a bad acquisition are two different things, though.
                            True.
                            Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Just what IS overpaid, anyway?

                              Pay should be regarded with regard to monetary replacement value.

                              How much does it cost to replace player X's total contribution?

                              How much does player x contribute to team's revenue?

                              If player x gets you into 4 playoff games then how much revenue can be attributed to player x?

                              How many seats does player x account for?

                              If we are strictly talking pay then we should be talking exactly how much player x's presence generates.

                              Talk to shoe companies and they will be able to tell you exactly whether a player is over or underpaid.

                              Comment

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