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Thread: Penn State accusations

  1. #301
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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I guess I'm torn on punishing the school for one reason: If everyone involved/guilty/responsible has been imprisoned, fired, or died... who are they punishing that DESERVES IT that's leftover at the university, and how much are wanting to hurt all of the students/alumni/staff/players/coaches that had nothing to do with it?

    I'm not saying there is nobody left who should be punished and still works at the school (I don't know either way), I'm just saying that if it can be established who was and who was not responsible for all of this, why not single them out and fire them all, if they haven't already been fired, and prosecute them all as appropriate? Why hurt the innocent ones on that campus?
    I heard a long (and well educated) debate between two groups of lawyers arguing this the other day.

    I went into it thinking "screw it, they should lose the football program".

    While I still think this cover-up was huge, and while I think they will get blasted from the FBI with the provision that lets you fine up to 500K per infraction (cannot think of the provision, I will have to look it up) I honestly and not sure if punishing kids who were not even there is the right answer.

    That does not even open the can of worms that is does the NCAA have jurisdiction on this matter, but I will leave that one for another day.

    EDIT: The Clercy Act
    Last edited by vapacersfan; 07-12-2012 at 07:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Interesting read from another site

    Read the report. Penn State handled the 1998 incident appropriately - save for reporting the incident to Human Resources. The DA did not have enough to charge Sandusky. In fact, if you read the report of the incident, it's pretty clear that he didn't probably technically do anything illegal in that moment. In retrospect, it's pretty clear that he has begun escalating his behavior with the child as seemed to be his MO. Freeh does not allege any pressure from PSU to sweep this under the rug.

    Freeh is also clear that Sandusky had decided to retire before this incident happened.

    So, PSU did not kill a DA and they did not force Sandusky into retirement.

    However, the '98 incident is still important. Why?

    1. It makes their inaction in 2001 completely unacceptable. Two accusations should forced immediate and dramatic action.
    2. It proves that they are all liars. Paterno and Spanier have denied knowing about the 1998 incident. They are lying.
    3. It makes Spanier's actions in 1999 all the more bizarre. Why did her personally give Sandusky emeritus status? Why the huge payout?

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    While many are waiting for the NCAA to step in and issue some sort of death penalty against Penn State for its lack of institutional control following the release of the Freeh report, which detailed a university-wide cover-up of sexual abuse by former assistant coach Jerry Sandusky, the harshest penalties could be coming from the Department of Education (DOE).

    John Infante, who created bylawblog.com and works for NCAA.org, stated on Twitter that: "Dept. of Ed could prohibit Penn State from receiving federal student aid…. Prohibiting a school from receiving federal financial aid is the DOE's death penalty. But we're in "If not here, then where?" territory."

    he issue at hand is Penn State's compliance (or lack thereof) with the Clery Act. The Clery Act requires that any public or private university that receives federal financial aid publicly report any crime on or near campus.
    The Department of Education has stated that it is looking into the findings from the Freeh report, but declined to make any other public comments about the matter. But if the DOE were to come down on Penn State, it could remove the university's accreditation and prohibit students from obtaining Pell Grants and federal student loans. In essence, it would cripple Penn State's ability to be a viable institution.



    So while the release of the Freeh report might have signaled the end of Penn State's internal investigation, it might be the beginning of the end for Penn State football and the university.




    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-...tml#more-16705

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  5. #304
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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    To use them as an example for everyone else.
    Why does the example need to including punishing innocent people? The damage is already done (by the guilty). They'd essentially be punishing the next generation of Penn State for the crimes of the previous one.

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    But doesn't that gloss over the fact that the guilty people were hired and put in place by...whoever takes care of these things? The board, regents, trustees, whatever? Most of those people are still there and they hired the people who let this happen. I'm a firm believer that you have to cut off the head to kill the beast. Maybe I'm a hardass.

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I guess I'm torn on punishing the school for one reason: If everyone involved/guilty/responsible has been imprisoned, fired, or died... who are they punishing that DESERVES IT that's leftover at the university, and how much are wanting to hurt all of the students/alumni/staff/players/coaches that had nothing to do with it?

    I'm not saying there is nobody left who should be punished and still works at the school (I don't know either way), I'm just saying that if it can be established who was and who was not responsible for all of this, why not single them out and fire them all, if they haven't already been fired, and prosecute them all as appropriate? Why hurt the innocent ones on that campus?
    When school's are punished for violations, it is quite frequently after a coach is removed and the new regime must face the consequences, what makes this any different? They are still Penn State

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Why does the example need to including punishing innocent people? The damage is already done (by the guilty). They'd essentially be punishing the next generation of Penn State for the crimes of the previous one.
    Again, this happens all the time for other violations. For example, Tom Crean paid the price for Kelvin Sampson's violations and he only made a few too many phone calls.

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    Then it sounds like they keep getting it wrong.

    Hope they don't put me in jail when my father commits a crime....

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Then it sounds like they keep getting it wrong.

    Hope they don't put me in jail when my father commits a crime....

    I think it is necessary to punish the school because you want to do everything possible to prevent misconduct. If the penalties are just confined to the specific people involved then that makes it more likely for a school to be reckless with their hires and oversight because they can just shrug it off by saying: "if a rule is broken then only the people directly involved will get in trouble." The threat that the entire school can be punished for rule violations leads to top-down oversight between the university officials, athletic directors, and coaches.

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Aren't you still punishing them that way if you fire and prosecute everyone who had any kind of oversight?

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I guess I'm torn on punishing the school for one reason: If everyone involved/guilty/responsible has been imprisoned, fired, or died... who are they punishing that DESERVES IT that's leftover at the university, and how much are wanting to hurt all of the students/alumni/staff/players/coaches that had nothing to do with it?

    I'm not saying there is nobody left who should be punished and still works at the school (I don't know either way), I'm just saying that if it can be established who was and who was not responsible for all of this, why not single them out and fire them all, if they haven't already been fired, and prosecute them all as appropriate? Why hurt the innocent ones on that campus?
    I pretty much agree. In a perfect world every single ranking member of the athletic department and university is immediately fired. But good luck with that. You can say suspend the football program, but it's not like the players were cool with it. Sure, let em transfer and not have to sit out, but that still means a ton of kids having to pick up and move (which costs money) and get adjusted to a new place after deciding on a place that they felt was the best fit for them. New friends, new role, new system, all that stuff. It's just not feasible.

    If there's any holdovers from the coaching staff fire them immediately. Fire everyone in the athletic department as soon as possible. Then move on. Sandusky's going to rot in a cell, Paterno's dead. What else can you do w/o remarkable undeserved collateral damage?

    Obviously other than the victims, I feel pretty bad for current students and recent (hell, not even really recent) PSU grads. When they apply for a job and their resume is read it's not going to be "Penn State...solid school." It's going to be "Penn State...disgusting."

    And get that ****ing statue off campus already. I'd have gotten drunk and rented a backhoe and ripped it down myself if I were a student.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Again, this happens all the time for other violations. For example, Tom Crean paid the price for Kelvin Sampson's violations and he only made a few too many phone calls.
    A lesser example would be (although, don't get me started on this) the current crop of Uconn Men's players who won't be playing the NCAA tournament this season because of the grades/drop out rate of student 3-6 years ago. (This current crop has a better overall GPA then the women's team..)

    Penn State has been sketchy with a lot of things. And I agree that if you don't punish the institution, you are setting the standard for a school to get reckless with who it hires because only that person will be liable.

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Victims from the 70s and 80s are now coming forward.

    http://espn.go.com/college-football/...0s-report-says

    Just kill the program and bulldoze the football facilities, already
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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    Victims from the 70s and 80s are now coming forward.

    http://espn.go.com/college-football/...0s-report-says

    Just kill the program and bulldoze the football facilities, already
    They're completely remodeling the showers and lockerroom. Which is pretty obvious but never even occurred to me, that's a start.

    But the statue is staying. I adore sports, both college and pro, I mean adore them, but it's this whole saga that makes me hate caring so much. I don't know who'd be a good example, maybe Bruce Weber under Keady for 20 some years, I hate to put the guy's name in this context, but if it were him doing something like that and then Keady covered it up? I mean holy hell, I'd be burning combovered scowl faced effigies. I just don't understand how a coach can be THAT revered.

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    Can see thru wooden doors dal9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    http://espn.go.com/college-football/...ons-penn-state

    NCAA President Emmert seems serious about sanctions. Of course, talk is cheap.

    That said, the Penn State admins--or at least the BoT--shows signs of not "getting it" still--their attitude seems to invite sanctions, almost.

  22. #316

    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    This is why PSU needs the death penalty.

    Even after the scandal, they elect leaders of the Board of Trustees with views like these:

    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    This is why PSU needs the death penalty.

    Even after the scandal, they elect leaders of the Board of Trustees with views like these:

    wow- talk about TOTAL denial! lubrano is seriously unreal with the hero worship.

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    http://espn.go.com/college-football/...ons-penn-state

    NCAA President Emmert seems serious about sanctions. Of course, talk is cheap.

    That said, the Penn State admins--or at least the BoT--shows signs of not "getting it" still--their attitude seems to invite sanctions, almost.
    Give it time, the West-End second floor of the NCAA headquarters is doing their due diligence on this before they strike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Why does the example need to including punishing innocent people? The damage is already done (by the guilty). They'd essentially be punishing the next generation of Penn State for the crimes of the previous one.
    This is true of any punishment of a NCAA sports team. Crean was punished for Sampsons wrong doing. Should we just give up punishing sports programs because some players and coaches will always be innocent?

    Let all the players transfer without penalty. And deliver the killing blow

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    This is why PSU needs the death penalty.

    Even after the scandal, they elect leaders of the Board of Trustees with views like these:
    Quote Originally Posted by clownskull View Post
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    wow- talk about TOTAL denial! lubrano is seriously unreal with the hero worship.
    Yeah, anyone on the fence about whether or not to punish the "innocent" university should be forced to watch this video.

    In light of everything, with what we know of the report, and that Paterno LIED to a grand jury, for which he would have faced charges were he still alive, to STILL have PSU officials with this attitude is beyond disgusting.

  29. #321
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    I'm not usually on the "NCAA is evil" bandwagon, but if they don't act against PSU, it will be absurd. Cf:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/op...e.html?_r=3&hp


    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Nocera, New York Times
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    You just can’t make up a coincidence like this. On Thursday, the same day Louis Freeh, the former director of the F.B.I., issued his damning report about the cover-up of Jerry Sandusky’s sexual crimes by the Penn State hierarchy, the N.C.A.A. lowered the boom on — are you ready for this? — the California Institute of Technology.

    One of the world’s great engineering schools, Caltech is never going to be mistaken for Penn State as an athletic force. With fewer than 1,000 undergraduates, it is a Division III school, which means, among other things, that it doesn’t grant athletic scholarships. Its basketball team ekes out about five wins a season, and its baseball team, according to The Times, has lost 227 games in a row. At Caltech, unlike your typical athletic powerhouse, “student-athletes” truly are students.

    Part of being a student at Caltech means “shopping” for courses for the first three weeks of each trimester. Students are allowed to sample classes before they have to register for them. “During those three weeks,” read an N.C.A.A. press release issued on Thursday, “because they were not actually registered in some or all of the courses they are attending, some students were not enrolled on a full-time basis.” And part-time students, you see, are not allowed to play intercollegiate athletics. Between 2007 and 2010, according to the N.C.A.A., this happened with 30 athletes in 12 sports.

    It would be hard to imagine a more frivolous violation of the rules — or one that could do less harm to the integrity of college sports. What’s more, Caltech turned itself in after a new athletic director realized that the practice of shopping for classes probably violated N.C.A.A. rules. Yet the punishment imposed on the school was severe: three years of probation, a postseason ban in a dozen sports, the erasure of wins and individual records that were gained with ineligible athletes, and more. Indeed, Caltech was cited for “a lack of institutional control,” which is pretty much the worst thing you can be accused of in N.C.A.A.-speak.

    In the wake of the Freeh report, there has been a lot of speculation about what punishment the N.C.A.A. should impose on Penn State — and even whether the Sandusky scandal is within its purview. I’m in the camp that says the N.C.A.A. should throw the book at Penn State. The legal system will take care of whether others besides Sandusky deserve to go to prison for failing to report his predatory behavior. Penn State itself will almost surely finish the painful process of removing the halo from the head of its late coach, Joe Paterno, which the Freeh report has begun. But only the N.C.A.A. can impose the so-called death penalty, forcing Penn State to shut down its football program for a period of time. Yes, it would make a mess of television schedules, not to mention the rest of Penn State’s athletic teams — which rely on the revenue that football generates — but it’s the only way to send the right message.

    That message is this: no university should ever be as beholden to its football program as Penn State was. At other big-time sports schools, there are all kinds of daily hypocrisies that people avert their eyes from in the name of college football or men’s basketball. Sadly, we accept these hypocrisies as the price to be paid for the money college sports generates and the entertainment it provides.

    Continued at link

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/op...e.html?_r=3&hp

  30. #322
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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Actually the pain has just begun for Penn State. The Department of Education is going to come onto campus and pull every record they can find for campus crime. Not only will possible sex offenses be under review, but the following as well (Robbery, Aggravated Assault, Burglary, Motor Vehicle theft, Arson, and of course other sub catergories for weapons, alcohol, and drug violations. Simply they're going to get hammered as I suspect there will be other stats not reported correctly. The media has it wrong with 27,000 for each violation, actually it's 27,500. Also Penn can be hit 27,500 for each year it was not reported correctly on their stats and there are several sub categories. For instance there is a total crime stat and then there is a sub category for location stat (on-campus, in a residence hall, public property, etc). There is a daily crime/incident log where there should have been an entry about the crime. So the fine isn't going to be a simple one time hit for $27,500 dollars even if they don't take away the financial aid. I'm sure the DOE doesn't want to see PState close down, but they are going to put a world of hurt on them for sure.

    P.S. The reason I have some knowledge on this is because I'm the Clery compliance person for a campus. I've been to several Clery schools including Chicago, Indy, and a three day course in Philly PA. There will be no excuses because campus officials know all about the requirements for Clery.
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  32. #323

    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    I'm not usually on the "NCAA is evil" bandwagon, but if they don't act against PSU, it will be absurd. Cf:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/op...e.html?_r=3&hp
    that seems pretty consistent with the ncaa. big name money makers get warnings or small penalties and come down on the little guy.
    i can't help but wonder what would happen if they REALLY tried to stop cheating/corruption in football and hoops.
    i suspect the entire sec minus ketucky would get the death penalty in football and kentucky would get the axe in hoops.
    of course there is cheating and corruption elsewhere in other conferences but frankly, i don't think the ncaa is interested in running an honest show, i think they operate it like dave stern and aim for the most profitable operation.

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Just because you aren't hearing about it doesn't mean the NCAA Enforcement department isn't already investigating...
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Penn State accusations

    Well... We all knew what a Cougar was (older woman prowling for younger men)... Now we know what a Nittany Lion is....

    Too soon?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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