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Thread: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

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    Default SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...p&sct=hp_wr_a3

    Interesting....

    INDIANAPOLIS -- Brian Shaw works and waits thousands of miles from Los Angeles, where he helped the Lakers win five championships, where Phil Jackson taught him to win at the highest level.

    Now Shaw is the associate head coach of the Indiana Pacers, rounding out one of the NBA's most promising staffs. Three or four days each week, head coach Frank Vogel gathers Shaw, Jim Boylen and Dan Burke in an office or on an otherwise empty court to discuss theory as they wait for the lockout to end.

    "The question, 'How did you guys do it?' is asked every day around here," Vogel said. "How did you teach post spacing or post cutting? How do you teach your ball-handlers and set-up men in the pick-and-roll? There's really an infinite amount of topics that you can have debates about and learn from each other. That's what we're doing right now."

    Each of Vogel's assistant brings his own perspective to those questions. Burke has been a Pacers assistant for 14 years under Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas, Rick Carlisle and Jim O'Brien. Boylen was a winning head coach at the University of Utah after assisting the Rockets' championship teams of Rudy Tomjanovich and other NBA franchises.

    Then there is Shaw, who played for a variety of coaches before attending his version of finishing school as a four-year player and a seven-year assistant to Jackson in Los Angeles. Shaw promises to be the most qualified head-coaching candidate in the NBA, based on his 15 years as a player in the league and in Europe, and his coaching experiences in L.A., where he maintained a strong relationship with the game's biggest star in Kobe Bryant and helped transform a young roster into a championship team while dealing with a variety of difficult issues.

    Yet his time with the Lakers hasn't been the boon he assumed it would be, which is one of the reasons he has come to Indiana. By helping the Pacers this season, he may be able to distance himself from Jackson's triangle offense.

    "I talked to him last week," Shaw said of Jackson. "I said to him, 'I never realized how many detractors you have out there.' Because when I go out on head-coaching interviews and if I mention the word 'triangle,' it makes general managers and owners cringe. They don't want to hear about the triangle offense, they don't want to hear about Phil Jackson. It was funny, even when I came here and I sat down with them, jokingly Larry was like, 'I don't want to hear anything about that triangle bull----.' And that's kind of the attitude that everybody has."

    That skepticism appears to be based on the failure of coaches other than Jackson to implement his offense of intricate team play. Jackson's assistants -- Jim Cleamons (with the Mavericks from 1996-98) and Kurt Rambis (with the Timberwolves from 2009-11) -- tried and failed to install it elsewhere.
    "I interviewed Brian four years ago and we talked about that," Bird said. "He said, 'I like the triangle, it's great, but you've got to have the right players to run it.' He said, 'I would use part of it, but it's according to the talent that we have. You've got to have the right guys.' "
    There's a much longer story, but this at least was specific to our team...
    Last edited by docpaul; 11-01-2011 at 03:01 PM.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    The triangle is just that Larry.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    The other half of the article that's Pacers related:

    Shaw's potential was affirmed by the Pacers' pursuit of him. He had been invited to audition for a commentating role by ESPN and there was interest from other coaching staffs, but the Pacers were adamant.

    "I already had this relationship with the guy who arguably should have been taking over the best team in the league and could have been the head coach the year before with Cleveland," said Vogel. "He's available, I have a friendship with him and Larry Bird has a friendship with him because they played together in Boston. So he immediately became my No. 1 target.

    "It was a recruitment of him. I treated it like I was a college coach going after a player. I'm calling him and texting him and trying to sell him on our team and where we're going, and we're going to be a playoff team, and we're going to be one of the most exciting teams in the league over the next few years -- but we need someone like him to help us get there."

    Vogel had actually worked under Shaw as an advance scout for the Lakers in 2005-06; he had been hired, at Shaw's urging, after Vogel and Jim O'Brien's staff had been fired by the 76ers in 2005. By 2007 Vogel had been reunited with O'Brien, who had been hired as head coach of the Pacers. When O'Brien was fired last January, Vogel was elevated to interim coach and led the Pacers to the playoffs for the first time in five years.

    Bird named Vogel full-time coach last summer, and gave him crucial advice. "Right after the season when I brought Frank in I said, 'The first thing to do is don't be like most coaches and think you know everything. We need to get experience on the bench," said Bird. "And he went out and got some pretty good ones."

    Vogel hired Boylen away from the Lakers and Cavaliers, who were highly interested in him. At the same time he asked Shaw to take on a larger role than he had experienced in L.A. "I was able to sell him on the idea that it's best for him to be a head coach very soon, and his best path to get there was to stay in the game," said Vogel. "And this would be an opportunity where he would be my associate head coach and he and I would sort of coach this team together because I was a young coach that doesn't have it all figured out yet.''

    He emphasized the optimism that is building around the Pacers, who challenged the Bulls throughout their first-round series last spring. The Pacers are young and deep and will have cap space when the lockout ends.

    "And then I had to sell him on Indiana," said Vogel. "He's coming from L.A. and this is going to be a culture shock coming out here. He and his wife have two small children, and to me this is the greatest place in the country to raise a family -- the cost of living is great, the [low] crime rate, the school system is off the charts. Everything out here is family friendly, so when he came out to visit it was like a recruiting visit where I took him around town and showed him my neighborhood and all of the developments that he would be looking at in terms of places to live."

    The Pacers will be installing a simplified low-post offense with read-and-react keys to bring their young players together. "People would say is he really going to help you being a triangle guy?" said Vogel. "But he went to the Finals as a starting point guard on the Orlando Magic. He played in that Brian Hill system which was a simple system with not a lot of plays, just working on execution. He played in a lot of different systems before he ever touched the triangle.

    "The triangle has so many good offensive concepts that make it a good offense to apply to our offense. The spacing they incorporate, the movement, the reads -- a lot of that stuff within the triangle is just basketball. And he's already made us a ton better because he's cleaned things up in my mind so much in how they taught things. And that has been very, very helpful."

    Shaw insists he is ready to move onto a new approach, and that he is no longer angry with the way his Lakers' association ended. That's why he went out of his way to reach out to Brown during a coaching clinic put on by Tim Grgurich of the Mavericks in September.

    "It was my first time really being around Mike Brown and I got an opportunity for five minutes to talk to him," said Shaw. "I felt there was this tension or awkwardness between us, and so I got an opportunity at the clinic to pull him aside. I think that so many people in L.A. anticipated or expected me to be the coach, and a lot of people wanted that. I wanted him to know that I really am OK with them hiring him. He got a lot of the negative vibe from folks not because of him and who he is and the way he coaches, but because of the way the situation went down with me. So my conversation with him was, I don't have any problems with you, I don't have any problems with the way coaches. I told him, you're more qualified in [a lot of areas].

    "I told him, I just want you to know that everything is cool with me, and if there's any way at all that I can help you let me know. I have the pulse of this [Lakers] team better than anybody does, nobody knows them better than me. Anything that you need, if you're having a hard time reaching these guys, or you want to run something by me or bounce something off me, don't hesitate to call on me.'

    "I offered that to him because I'm over it, I have relationships with a lot of the people in the organization and a lot of the people on that team. I want him to do well, I want the people that I know to do well and I want the fans there to give him a chance instead of coming down on him because they expected something different.

    "So I told him that and it was strange. It was like a weight had lifted. It was like he took a deep breath, we hugged each other on the back, and he said, 'I really appreciate you saying that to me.' He texted me that evening that it was nice being around you the last couple days, it was nice getting to know you and I appreciate what you said to me.

    "I really want the fans to give him that chance, and to not let the stuff that happened with me and the other people of the organization to put a damper on him and what he's going to bring to the organization going forward."
    The team played this circumstance very, very well. Hats off to Vogel and Bird.
    Last edited by docpaul; 11-01-2011 at 03:15 PM.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Am I the only one who doesn't understand all the hate with the Triangle offense?

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    The whole article is really intesresting and worth your time. And the best part is it was about actual basketball which is refreshing.

    Also makes me realize how much the young Pacers team (which likely will be younger than last season as far as key guys playing big minutes) has to learn and how much the lockout and missed practice & training camp time will hurt the team
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-01-2011 at 03:22 PM.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by Young View Post
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    Am I the only one who doesn't understand all the hate with the Triangle offense?

    I don't think people hate the triangle offense, I just think a lot of people in the NBA hate Phil Jackson and to the extent that the Jackson genius is built on the triangle - then it gets named. But the hatred is for Phil - not a system. (although it is true you have to have the right players to run it)

    Phil really isn't not well liked by basketball people

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The whole article is really intesresting and worth your time. And the best part is it was about actual basketball which is refreshing.

    Also makes me realize how much the young Pacers team (which likely will be younger than last season (as far as keyu guys playing big minutes) has to learn and how much the lockout and missed practice traning camp time will hurt the team
    I think the most important data point of the whole article is an acknowledgement that we're sticking with (and focusing on) the low post offense. It's interesting from the perspective of what we actually have skill wise currently for the team and what that means for trades/recruiting. It's interesting from the perspective of Boylen's role (as he's known as a big man coach).

    I suspect that, as you said, things will take some time to gel. That is, unless, things click quickly with Hibbert and Hansbrough.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    The Pacers will be installing a simplified low-post offense with read-and-react keys to bring their young players together.

    Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz1cUHTo1cT
    More read and react?? Come on Vogel lets flush that JOB scheme down the toilet please.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    More read and react?? Come on Vogel lets flush that JOB scheme down the toilet please.

    I think you are taking that a little out of context. To a certain degree every offense has some read and react elements to it.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Grin...

    https://twitter.com/#!/teamziller

    Just when you think you can't love Frank Vogel any more ...
    (Also, Brian Shaw sounds like a pretty great dude.)
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    "to me this is the greatest place in the country to raise a family..." Frank Vogel is Leslie Knope.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think you are taking that a little out of context. To a certain degree every offense has some read and react elements to it.
    I dunno... I'm gonna be worried if (when this lock out ends) we resign Mike Dunleavey for his high basketball IQ. And Larry's justification will be, "Well the FA period is so short and I just wasn't sure we could get the players we wanted, and we already know what we have with Dunleavy and I feel he can still really help us win some games."
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by Young View Post
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    Am I the only one who doesn't understand all the hate with the Triangle offense?
    Like most non-traditional offenses it requires a specific set of players in order for it to work well. Any Colts fan has been witness to this kind of system for a while now with the Tampa-2. Yeah it works great when you have a bunch of highly skilled, and unique athletes at key positions, but if your have just average or below average skill and don't have those unique athletes at the key positions you are going to struggle to field a consistently good defense or team.

    Basically if a system is designed with a certain kind of players in mind you are going to struggle to convert it to another team that doesn't have a similar set of players. So if Vogel came up with a completely new system that was design to take advantage of what this team has, chances are he would be highly successful with this team. If one of his assistants took that system to another team that was built differently chances are that team will struggle as it wasn't built with that system in mind.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Like most non-traditional offenses it requires a specific set of players in order for it to work well. Any Colts fan has been witness to this kind of system for a while now with the Tampa-2. Yeah it works great when you have a bunch of highly skilled, and unique athletes at key positions, but if your have just average or below average skill and don't have those unique athletes at the key positions you are going to struggle to field a consistently good defense or team.

    Basically if a system is designed with a certain kind of players in mind you are going to struggle to convert it to another team that doesn't have a similar set of players. So if Vogel came up with a completely new system that was design to take advantage of what this team has, chances are he would be highly successful with this team. If one of his assistants took that system to another team that was built differently chances are that team will struggle as it wasn't built with that system in mind.
    The translation here is you have to have the handful of hall of fame players that Phil Jackson has had over the course of his Coaching career.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't think people hate the triangle offense, I just think a lot of people in the NBA hate Phil Jackson and to the extent that the Jackson genius is built on the triangle - then it gets named. But the hatred is for Phil - not a system. (although it is true you have to have the right players to run it)

    Phil really isn't not well liked by basketball people
    The article also highlights that there is no Coach outside of Phil that has successfully implemented the Triangle to any real degree of success. Unfortunately, this is more of an unfair assumption made by Bird and other FOs. Just because Shaw worked with a Coach that ran a Triangle offense, it doesn't mean that he will o the same if he were a Coach.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    The translation here is you have to have the handful of hall of fame players that Phil Jackson has had over the course of his Coaching career.
    Not really, the right players aren't necessarily the best players.

    This article just made me love Frank even more. I really think the Pacers lucked into a special coach. Is he going to make mistakes? Sure. But he displayed last season that he's a quick learner.

    Stuff like this though (and I don't know if part of it's Larry's doing) But where Vogel will have meetings with his coaches and "debate" on how they want to teach certain things. He's obviously more interested in making the team better and learning to coach better, than he is about his ego. Which is rare.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't think people hate the triangle offense, I just think a lot of people in the NBA hate Phil Jackson and to the extent that the Jackson genius is built on the triangle - then it gets named. But the hatred is for Phil - not a system. (although it is true you have to have the right players to run it)

    Phil really isn't not well liked by basketball people
    The article also highlights that there is no Coach outside of Phil that has successfully implemented the Triangle to any real degree of success. Unfortunately, this is more of an unfair assumption made by Bird and other FOs. Just because Shaw worked with a Coach that ran a Triangle offense, it doesn't mean that he will o the same if he were a Coach.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by Young View Post
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    Am I the only one who doesn't understand all the hate with the Triangle offense?
    It is too close to what Jim O'Brien ran. O'Brien ran a cousin of a triangle offense, that was more predicated on cutting without the ball. The triangle is a loose version with basic steps to each play and decision. The triangle that Phil ran with Kobe, Pau, and whoever was more of an attacking dribble style offense that basically gave you two options for cuts. Jim O'Brien was so much more reliant on the jump shot as a primary shot selection, instead of the jump shot being the fallback in Phil's triangle. These are a bit general in terms of descriptions, because there are so many variables in an NBA offense. I would say that these are constant outcomes within the offenses.

    Another thing, is that read and react is more about the chemistry with the players than it is with the system. Every NBA offense is predicated on read and react. It might not be called that in name, but even entirely pick and roll is read and react. The basic give and go is read and react based on where the off defender is playing. Read and react is more of a basketball principle, such as spreading the court, which is one of our favorites around here. The thing about read and react, is more about controlling what you are reading by having a structured offense and reacting is about the proper decisions your players know to make when the opportunity presents itself. You could call it prepared and opportunistic in other fields.

    Jim O'Brien's system is actually a very good system if played correctly. It is why the Princeton offense is so good in college games, because the players are more reliant on the system for proudction. That offense would look great with several seniors and a couple of young talents getting most of his playing time. It is not conducive to NBA athletes who can be productive in many more ways. You don't restrict the talent capability if you don't have to.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Bird named Vogel full-time coach last summer, and gave him crucial advice. "Right after the season when I brought Frank in I said, 'The first thing to do is don't be like most coaches and think you know everything. We need to get experience on the bench,"
    Says a lot about the guy Vogel replaced...
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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...


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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by tora tora View Post
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    I thought for sure he would answer:
    "Spin a basketball on the tip of a toothbrush while brushing, dugh..."

    This is why they will work well together, 2 different ways to doing the same thing. One says Tomato, The other says Masterbateo, to do either well it takes a stiff stick & good ball skills!
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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Well, I guess we all know what Shaw was doing as a teenager.

    Anyway, I love Vogel's attitude on this whole thing, and I love Shaw's attitude toward Mike Brown.

    Looks like we are infusing a bunch of class and character into the organization.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    The biggest nugget of information for me was:

    The Pacers will be installing a simplified low-post offense with read-and-react keys to bring their young players together.

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Anyone else get the sense that he still really wants to be the head coach of the Lakers?

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
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    Anyone else get the sense that he still really wants to be the head coach of the Lakers?
    He and every other coach in the league.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

    -Lance Stephenson

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    Default Re: SI Piece on Brian Shaw...

    I'm thrilled he's here. I just wish I thought he would stay passed the next season played.

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