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Thread: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dgreenwell3 View Post
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    Big difference between an excuse and a reason...injuries are a REASON the colts have only won one super bowl
    Not really injures happen every year in football you kind of have to prepare for injuries in the NFL it is a big part of the game. Look at GB last year they had a lot of key players hurt and still won. You can only use injuries as a reason if your QB #18 goes down the rest you have to be able to replace on the fly like GB did last year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Do we talk about it more, or is this just a Colts forum so you read about it more?
    No other owner tweets an injury list.

    No other team president calls a press conference to discuss their injury list in detail, with violins playing in the background (/sarcasm).

    Most just quietly issue a vague press release at the latest possible moment with the least information allowable.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I guess I didn't realize that Polian should have looked harder into his crystal ball and drafted someone other than Bob Sanders.

    Bob Sanders doesn't go down every game, that he manages to get healthy for, and it's a completely different team.



    The argument that the team didn't win as much as they should, because of Polian is pretty funny.

    They're the winningest team in the decade. They simply couldn't stay healthy. Do we really need to create the extremely long laundry list of injuries they've had to overcome year in and year out?


    Since it's Bill's fault Bob couldn't play, I'm now placing Dwight's injury riddled past in his lap as well.



    I don't think it was mere coincidence that the playoff year Bob was healthy was the year they happened to win.


    The real moral of the story? There will always be complainers.
    That's a huge stretch. Sanders' two best seasons, 2005 and 2007, were years where we went one and done at home. He was a completely healthy pro bowler for both of those years and won DPOY in 07. So saying that "the playoff year Bob was healthy was the year they happened to win" is a distortion.

    Let's not sit here and act surprised that Sanders had a large amount of injury problems. He was 5'8 200 pounds and played like a wild one-man wrecking crew. That's never going to be a recipe of health and longevity for an NFL player. If you play that way in an already violent sport against NFL athletes then it's almost inevitable that you are going to get hurt quite a bit. If you don't play like that then you might be healthy more, but then you aren't Bob Sanders. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    Sanders was never going to have a healthy career for 10 years. I'm content with what we got out of him. He helped us win a Super Bowl and had a couple of super productive seasons for us. It's simply unrealistic to ask too much more of a guy who uses his small body like he did.

    And what season would he have made a difference anyway? I already pointed out 2005 and 2007 where we lost despite having him completely healthy. In 09 we made the Super Bowl without him as Bullitt turned out to be a more than adequate replacement for 08 and 09. A guy who plays like Sanders is only going to be healthy/productive for an extremely small window. I don't see any year where you can say "hey, if only we had Sanders"

    This team's problems over the years go much deeper than Sanders having injury problems.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-07-2011 at 09:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Not really injures happen every year in football you kind of have to prepare for injuries in the NFL it is a big part of the game. Look at GB last year they had a lot of key players hurt and still won. You can only use injuries as a reason if your QB #18 goes down the rest you have to be able to replace on the fly like GB did last year.
    That is the exception that proves the rule. They are an absolutely rarely stacked team on the offense and the defensive backfield is probably the best in the NFL depth wise. That team can miss some guys purely because they have 5 to 6 guys who would start on most teams at some positions.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    This team's problems over the years go much deeper than Sanders having injury problems.
    Once again, did I say that it was the ONLY problem?

    I answered that question before you posted this You're really going to try and argue that the teams best defensive player doesn't make all that big of an impact on their post season play?

    The best player against the run, when your team struggles stopping the run, wouldn't change the outcome of games? Wow, okay......

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Not really injures happen every year in football you kind of have to prepare for injuries in the NFL it is a big part of the game. Look at GB last year they had a lot of key players hurt and still won. You can only use injuries as a reason if your QB #18 goes down the rest you have to be able to replace on the fly like GB did last year.
    The only injury that matters if Peyton goes down?

    So they could lose the other 21 starters and if Peyton stays healthy, then they'd be alright?

    We all know the answer, so let's not talk in absolutes please.


    Also, please inform me of a GB player that is as important as Bob Sanders who has injury problems.

    And once you find that player, please find another high impact player that is also as injury prone as Dwight Freeney.

    I'll be waiting.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    No other owner tweets an injury list.

    No other team president calls a press conference to discuss their injury list in detail, with violins playing in the background (/sarcasm).

    Most just quietly issue a vague press release at the latest possible moment with the least information allowable.
    Then go to a different NFL message board. Problem solved.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    No one thinks that of Polain. Now arrogant and headstrong to a fault thats another story.
    Arrogance and headstrong = dumbass.

    If your so arrogant/headstrong you think you can do anything, and it routinely gets you in trouble, then you're a dumbass.

    Whether you screw up because of that, or because of your low level of intelligence, really doesn't matter. You're still screwing up.

    I think we can agree Big Ben didn't try to rape two girls (opinion) because he's that dumb. He's arrogant and thought he could do what he wanted. That's being a dumbass.

    You don't get articles written like this
    http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/24/foo...-managers.html

    When you're routinely making fatal mistakes.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And once you find that player, please find another high impact player that is also as injury prone as Dwight Freeney.

    I'll be waiting.

    Freeney has played 9 seasons and his games played are as followed:

    16 (started 8)
    15 (started 13)
    16
    16 (started 13)
    16
    9
    15 (started 14)
    14 (only started 9)
    16

    http://www.pro-football-reference.co...F/FreeDw00.htm

    Injury prone? Come on, the guy has started at least 13 games in 6 of his 9 NFL seasons and has played in at least 14 games in 8 of the 9. And since his lack of starting in 02 was due to him being a rookie, he's really only had 2 seasons (07 and 09) affected by injury. The 09 injury just happened to come at the worst time possible so it was extremely magnified. And the 2007 injury had nothing to do with being "injury prone". A Chargers player stepped on his foot as he was making a spin move. That was just a freak injury that would have f'd anyone up.

    There is just no way that you can classify Freeney as "injury prone". By and large, he's been pretty healthy throughout his long career. He just happens to play the most violent sport at the highest level. So yeah, if you play his position for his decade then you are going to have some bruises here and there. But he's been pretty fortunate overall.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    So let me get this straight.

    Players don't play through injuries? Freeney played in the SB, and probably shouldn't. But by your logic, because he played, he wasn't injured.

    We all know he was, and we all saw how relatively ineffective he was during the last SB because of it.

    Let's not rewrite history based on a box score.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So let me get this straight.

    Players don't play through injuries? Freeney played in the SB, and probably shouldn't. But by your logic, because he played, he wasn't injured.

    We all know he was, and we all saw how relatively ineffective he was during the last SB because of it.

    Let's not rewrite history based on a box score.


    Yeah, most guys in the NFL who play Freeney's position play through injuries. The whole point here is that your earlier post made it seem like like no other high impact player in the NFL had as bad of injury luck as Freeney. That simply is not true.

    Clearly he wouldn't have played in the SB if it were a regular season game. But when you look at his whole 9 year career, the guy has by and large been pretty fortunate with his health. You can't paint him out to be some cursed injury prone player just because he had one injury that came at the worst possible time imaginable. It's like TO in 04. TO had an untimely injury during Philly's playoff run, but that doesn't change the fact that TO by and large was extremely healthy for most of his career.

    Aside from the foot injury in 07 and the SB injury two years ago, when else has Freeney been hurt? What in his 9 year career could possibly back up your assertion that no other high impact player is as prone as Dwight Freeney? My problem isn't you saying that Freeney has played through injuries. My beef is with you acting that no other player in the league is as injury prone.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Arrogance and headstrong = dumbass.

    If your so arrogant/headstrong you think you can do anything, and it routinely gets you in trouble, then you're a dumbass.

    Whether you screw up because of that, or because of your low level of intelligence, really doesn't matter. You're still screwing up.

    I think we can agree Big Ben didn't try to rape two girls (opinion) because he's that dumb. He's arrogant and thought he could do what he wanted. That's being a dumbass.

    You don't get articles written like this
    http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/24/foo...-managers.html

    When you're routinely making fatal mistakes.
    I don't think they are equal. You can be headstrong in certain areas and be right and not all mistakes are fatal. For example Polain is probably the best GM in finding DB's in the later rounds and hesn't too shabby at finding capable LB's in the later rounds as well.

    ITs alot harder though to find good talent in the later rounds for important positions like DE's, Qbs, LT and in Polains case I would put DT's in that list as well. Just because your good at finding hinden gems at some positions doesn't mean you good at finding good players in the later rounds in all positions.

    Polains mistakes don't lead to a 3-13 team and they aren't fatal (whatever that means). They are costly from the stand point they don't build a complete team. Injuries are a poor excuse IMo to justify the lack of post season success. This team is built to get the lead and force the other team to pass. That assumes a lot IMO and is why I think the team isn't able to win in multiple ways. Its not fatal but its still not a well built team that can win in multiple ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And once you find that player, please find another high impact player that is also as injury prone as Dwight Freeney.

    I'll be waiting.
    I have never heard Freeney labeled with the injury prone tag before. Not nationally or locally. By the way there are different ways to create pressure than just relying on two DE's. Most good teams don't rely on just one guy to create pressure much like they don't rely on a safety to stop the run on a consistent basis as your pointing out in Sanders.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 09-07-2011 at 11:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    My problem isn't you saying that Freeney has played through injuries. My beef is with you acting that no other player in the league is as injury prone.
    When have I ever even hinted at the Colts being the only team with injuries? This is starting to get comical.

    First you said that I was placing the blame on injuries alone, and I pointed out that I said it was one of the problems.

    Now I'm doing this? I don't think so. I'm perfectly aware that other teams have injuries. I'm perfectly aware that other teams with injuries win, like Green Bay.

    Since very Dwight Freeney injury search comes back with a thousand different links on his SB injury, I found this line hidden in one.

    “He has had injuries before where they said [he's] not going to play and he has come back,” Colts tight end Dallas Clark said during the Pro Bowl. “He is a competitor, he is one of the toughest guys on our team and I never expect him to miss anything.”
    He's routinely injured, and he routinely plays through those injuries. Digging up how many games he's played and started doesn't really mean all that much to the discussion, since I've never said he's missed a lot of time.

    I've said he's injury prone, because he's always dealing with pretty major injuries.


    And here's an article talking about last years injuries.

    [QUOTE]
    As in, an almost unfathomable 17 of Manning's teammates who ended the regular season on injured reserve, including favorite target Dallas Clark, much of the receiving corps and almost the entire defensive secondary.


    Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/jets/...Ng5[/QUOTE]


    Pretty strong word to be used right there.


    And injuries to major players go further back than just Bob and Freeney. How about Harrison's knee? How about Dallas? Collie? Gonzo?

    Yes, injuries happen in the NFL. Just like Tom Brady. Just like Big Ben. Just like Carson. (And more than just QBs)

    But out of all those teams, did they continue to make the playoffs? Uh, no. Did they continue winning 12 games per season? Uh, no.


    Manning must be a pretty good wizard, or he must have a deal with the devil, because if the Colts can continually win with unfathomable injuries and an arrogant hardheaded GM then there has to be something else supernatural going on.


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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I have never heard Freeney labeled with the injury prone tag before. Not nationally or locally.
    Here's a stampede blue article talking about injuries and how they affect Bob and Freeney, back from 2009.

    I love Bob. I very much appreciate his contributions. But, for us fans, we just saw Dwight Freeney sustain a rather serious quad injury against the Cardinals two games ago. Many experts thought he'd miss several weeks. Turns out, those experts under-estimated Dwight Freeney. He did not miss this past Sunday's game, and his presence made an immediate impact. And while I understand that a strained quad is very different from the many "knee scopes" Bob has gone through, there is no doubting the perception that Dwight Freeney is "tougher" than Bob Sanders, and he does not allow injury to cost him games.
    And then you can look at his 2006 season and his 2007 season where he had 9 sacks TOTAL between them.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/...L_bo1T_l3.uLYF

    He's had more than 9 sacks in every year, besides those two. Maybe, just maybe, injuries?

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo.../injuries.html

    Quite a list.

    Colts defensive end Dwight Freeney, who usually finds a way to overcome injuries, won’t be playing on Sunday against the Texans.
    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...out-for-colts/

    http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com...gets-big-shot/


    The Colts play injuries very close to the vest, and Freeney isn't anything different. He always seems to have injury concerns around him.

    I'm not trying to pick on DFree, I love him as a player and I hope he ends his time in a Colts uniform. And I have the utmost respect for him playing through injuries. It really gives an indication on his personal character.

    But the fact still remains, he's hurt. A lot.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    I am not sure what your point is exactly. Playing through injuries is a part of the game and its especially true of linemen/OLB's. IF you put a list of sac leaders on teams your going to find a large amount of those guys playing through injuries.

    Last year Clay Matthews played half the season with a stress fracture in his lower leg.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    I think my point is pretty clear.

    The Colts have to deal with high profile injuries every stinking year, and maybe that has more to do with their shortcomings in the playoffs than their arrogant/hardheaded GM that thinks he's smarter than everyone.

    Placing the blame on one person, like you guys continually do, isn't anywhere near the whole story.

    Has Polian made mistakes? Yep, every GM does. Does it hurt the Colts? Sure.

    Is it the reason why they've only won one SB? Hardly.

    And like clock work we now have to deal with a significant injury to Peyton. At a certain point in time, there isn't anything you can do other than pray it stops.

  18. #68

    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    He's had more than 9 sacks in every year, besides those two. Maybe, just maybe, injuries?
    Its well known that Freeney suffered a Lisfranc fracture which is hard difficult injury to come back from. His sac totals drop in that year for that obvious reason.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Its well known that Freeney suffered a Lisfranc fracture which is hard difficult injury to come back from. His sac totals drop in that year for that obvious reason.
    But yet you place the their failure in the postseason on the shoulders of their GM? Odd.

    When you're two most important pieces of the defense are routinely out with injuries, or are fighting with serious injuries while playing, it's not a surprise they don't win in the postseason.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    But yet you place the their failure in the postseason on the shoulders of their GM? Odd.

    When you're two most important pieces of the defense are routinely out with injuries, or are fighting with serious injuries while playing, it's not a surprise they don't win in the postseason.
    Again most teams have to overcome some sort of injury to key players every year. Those injuries don't always put the player on IR but other guys have to step up. If you don't have a guy to step up then it becomes a big problem.

    The Colts have shown that they can overcome injuries to key players in the past. The list is long and this is why I don't list it as an excuse for why 13 years of Manning has lead to one superbowl win. I in part blame the GM because he helps hire the coach and adds the talent to the roster. The cover 2 doesn't ask for a mediocre NT nor does the offensive scheme ask for a bad run offensive line.

    The colts can't win in multiple ways consistently and thats what gets you past the first round of playoffs year after year. THey can't run the ball down the throat of the opponent or stop the run on a consistent basis.

    Polain is at fault for such things IMo. He's not the only one but he a big part of why this team is built to be good in 2 phases of the game and be bad in the other 2.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Again most teams have to overcome some sort of injury to key players every year.
    And again, how many of those teams continually win 12 games per season and make the playoffs? Only the Colts.


    And once again, Bob Sanders completely changes the run defense. The year they won the SB, the Colts had the worst rushing defense in the league. During the playoffs, with Bob, they gave up an average of 73 yards.

    And around and around we go.

    EDIT: Did you even read the Forbes article I posted? They call Polian the best GM of the decade, and then proceed to support that argument with winning totals.

    Listening to this board you'd think Polian was in the lower half of GMs.

    I don't agree with everything he does, I've said that MULTIPLE times this summer alone, but he's not the major reason why the Colts have fallen flat.

    You guys can't even admit that injuries have played a pretty damn important role in the scenario. I mean, my goodness.

    You're argument is that every team gets hurt. NO JOKE! Not every team goes through the injuries the Colts do every year, and consistantly win.

    Once again, that's not saying other teams don't have injuries or other teams haven't won with injuries. I'm talking about a span of 10 years, not one season.
    Last edited by Since86; 09-07-2011 at 01:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And again, how many of those teams continually win 12 games per season and make the playoffs? Only the Colts.


    And once again, Bob Sanders completely changes the run defense. The year they won the SB, the Colts had the worst rushing defense in the league. During the playoffs, with Bob, they gave up an average of 73 yards.

    And around and around we go.

    EDIT: Did you even read the Forbes article I posted? They call Polian the best GM of the decade, and then proceed to support that argument with winning totals.

    Listening to this board you'd think Polian was in the lower half of GMs.

    I don't agree with everything he does, I've said that MULTIPLE times this summer alone, but he's not the major reason why the Colts have fallen flat.

    You guys can't even admit that injuries have played a pretty damn important role in the scenario. I mean, my goodness.

    You're argument is that every team gets hurt. NO JOKE! Not every team goes through the injuries the Colts do every year, and consistantly win.

    Once again, that's not saying other teams don't have injuries or other teams haven't won with injuries. I'm talking about a span of 10 years, not one season.
    I look at the win streak as a product of Mannings abilities. A great qb can cover up a multitude of issues. You saw that last year with Green Bay. Not every team has a qb like Manning and thats why you don't see them with long win streaks. The Pats do and they win a lot just like the colts.

    Again if the Colts were good in 3 out of the 4 phases of the game then we aren't having this discussion. The fact that they are only good in 2 and have been for a long time is why I blame Polain. He can make the Colts into a good run defensive team and he has in the past in short stints. Getting Simon was great and trading for Booger was another plus. Carrying one NT on the team now is not especially when you consider the same personnel failed last year in run defense.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    So injuries don't negatively influence the team?

    That's pretty much what you're saying. If the Colts, or Manning, are good enough to win 12 games every season and go to 2 different SBs, don't you think they might do even a tiny bit better if they were relatively healthy?

    I would think that a DPOY caliber player would be good for one or two extra wins over a 18-19 game season. One or two extra wins, when you've been to 2 SBs could be more SB appearances, or even more SB wins.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So injuries don't negatively influence the team?

    That's pretty much what you're saying. If the Colts, or Manning, are good enough to win 12 games every season and go to 2 different SBs, don't you think they might do even a tiny bit better if they were relatively healthy?

    I would think that a DPOY caliber player would be good for one or two extra wins over a 18-19 game season. One or two extra wins, when you've been to 2 SBs could be more SB appearances, or even more SB wins.
    No thats not what I am saying. Having Bob would help but its not like our safeties are bad. We have a pro bowl safety in Bethea and Bullit is solid as well. Again if you have to rely on a safety to consistently stop the run your screwed. Win in the trenches and everything else becomes much easier.

    By the way Bob has been missing games since he was a starter in Iowa back in 01. ITs not a surprise that a guy like him wouldn't be able to hold up in the NFL for an entire season.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 09-07-2011 at 04:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Tommie Harris cut by Colts

    So the Colts wouldn't have had a better chance to win more?

    You're trying to have it both ways. You're admitting that injuries negatively influence the team while trying to limit it's influence.

    Take away the most important defender from each team and see how they do. We can talk about the Steelers and how they struggled last year when Troy P went down.

    This is an absolute joke of a conversation, that you can't even admit that injuries have routinely depleted the Colts.

    You try and say that Freeney isn't injury prone, and then talk about how his production was limited for two seasons because of injuries!!

    A relatively healthy Colts team in the postseason would perform better than an injury depleted Colts team.

    Just admit it.

    A healthy roster wins more than an injured one.

    Considering the accomplishments the Colts have acheived while injured, one can only assume more postseason wins, and atleast more SB appearances.


    I love how you're trying to blame Polian now for not knowing that Bob would be injured. And he missed 3 games over 3 seasons at Iowa, and they were the first three games of his Jr. year.

    Not surprised one bit.

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