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  1. #1
    Over the pond ballism's Avatar
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    Default Eurobasket 2011

    Since there isn't much else to talk about...

    First day impressions from EuroBasket:

    Everyone's beatable.
    All the favorites had very tough games. Even Spain.
    Spain was carried by Pau and Navarro (the usual core) and Marc (now that we see how good he can be, I bet Barca and Spain fans are pissed at him for being out of shape till lately).
    Spain has enough talent to be a playoff team in the NBA. 10 NBA level guys. I hope they start to click, it would make these games more fun.

    Stanko is frustrating. Well, he wasn't given much time. But he looks bad on that team. Right now he doesn't look like a Euroleague center.
    On the other hand, his game curve was extremely up and down throughout the year.
    He's bound to stumble upon good periods again.
    He reminds of a certain Pacer actually.

    UK doesn't like to pass. Luol Deng's boxscore looked great, but he was in the bad Kobe mode. To be fair, he has only 2 decent teammates and they were trigger happy as well.

    France is being France. As in, a team with a lot of talent, a lot of athletic and defensive ability, bad simplistic offense and no 3pt shooting. Tony Parker had a Rose like game, but they barely pulled it off against a much inferior team.

    Jonas Valanciunas (Raptors pick at no.5) played little and played terribly. Everyone went at him and he couldn't do anything. Lithuanai has horrible overall defensive talent compared to last year's team from World Cup.
    Kanter (Utah's pick at 3) had a 14-7, but I didn't see the game.
    Erazem Lorbek had an 18-9, but again I didn't see the game.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    I still think that we need a backup Center to backup Hibbert and ( hopefully ) Foster....essentially a 5th Big Man in the rotation. I really hope that Bird really considers bringing Stanko over to fill that role.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    There's another thread with the exact same title in the "The Locker Room" section of PD. Is it possible to move/merge them?

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    Over the pond ballism's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Pingu View Post
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    There's another thread with the exact same title in the "The Locker Room" section of PD. Is it possible to move/merge them?
    Ohh. I didn't notice that one (I don't really check other sections often).

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Lol at ESPN TV guy. On Kanter: "he plays inside like he wasn't held as a baby by his mom". What the hell?

    Kanter looks very good against UK. On offense and on the boards, there's noone on the British team to contest him. Also his D looks far better than it did a few weeks ago.

    Turkey as a whole looks very good. The opposite of how they looked in prep games.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Yes, i would say i was wrong and Kanter looks now a lot better than he was during exhibition games. He should be fine in NBA.

    P.S. Anyone interested in watching Eurobasket games? Many teams brought their best teams ever (Spain, France, Germany, Turkey). Spain and France teams basicly could be called the NBA teams.
    I'm really sorry because of my english (which is my 3-4 language) and I really appreciate Your patience. I hope this board will make me better

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    Over the pond ballism's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Indeed, Kanter looks a no brainer for Utah right now. A strong center with great passing ability, ability to score on fastbreaks and in halfcourt, strong rebounding.
    Still lots to learn in terms of positioning. Defense is very basic or maybe rusty - but I doubt he'll ever be good at PnR defense or guarding perimeter bigs. Maybe he's not even interested in D much - idk, and it's not a red flag, it's simply insufficient footage for me personally to guess.

    The most impressive thing is that he plays like a vet on the offensive end. Despite missing almsot 2 years. His skillset is limited. But he knows what he can do and does it well.
    Most 19 year old guys - Valanciunas or even Durant in his rookie year - try to do a lot of stuff that only works when you outclass opponents physically by far. That's because they are used to being far ahead athletically in college or youth tournaments.
    Like, Valanciunas keeps trying to power through several opponents for a semi - jump hook and then immediately goes for a rebound. That works at youth level. He's bigger and stronger than everyone else, and if he doesn't score he can often get the board back. Against men it's a pretty bad idea - stronger opponents, better D, and more often than not it's a turnover or a very bad miss.
    Kanter keeps things simple and efficient. I don't see why any of his turnaround shots, passes or fakes wouldn't work in the NBA. He sure killed Pau Gasol with one of them yesterday.

    Idk if he'll be an All Star, but I think he should be a much better piece for Utah's system than Al Jefferson in a few years. Lower maintenance, great fit.
    Put Kanter next to an athletic defensive minded 4 and it could be an awesome core down the road. And Utah has that with Favors.
    Last edited by ballism; 09-06-2011 at 08:58 PM. Reason: cleaning up mistakes

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    Indeed, Kanter looks a no brainer for Utah right now. A strong center with great passing ability, ability to score on fastbreaks and in halfcourt, strong rebounding.
    Still lots to learn in terms of positioning. Defense is very basic or maybe rusty - but I doubt he'll ever be good at PnR defense or guarding perimeter bigs. Maybe he's not even interested in D much - idk, and it's not a red flag, it's simply insufficient footage for me personally to guess.

    The most impressive thing is that he plays like a vet on the offensive end. Despite missing almsot 2 years. His skillset is limited. But he knows what he can do and does it well.
    Most 19 year old guys - Valanciunas or even Durant in his rookie year - try to do a lot of stuff that only works when you outclass opponents physically by far. That's because they are used to being far ahead athletically in college or youth tournaments.
    Like, Valanciunas keeps trying to power through several opponents for a semi - jump hook and then immediately goes for a rebound. That works at youth level. He's bigger and stronger than everyone, and if he doesn't score he can often the board back. Against men it's a pretty bad idea - lack of strength, better D, more often than not it's a turnover or a very bad miss.
    Kanter keeps things simple and efficient. I don't see why any of his turnaround shots, passes or fakes wouldn't work in the NBA. He sure killed Pau Gasol with one of them yesterday.

    Idk if he'll be an All Star yet, but I think he should be a much better piece for Utah's system than Al Jefferson in a few years. Lower maintanence, great fit.
    Put Kanter next to an athletic defensive minded 4 and it could be an awesome core down the road. And Utah has that with Favors.
    I think both Jonas and Kanter have 20 and 10 potential. Just may take some time but it is refreshing seeing 2 big men play like actual big men. The sky is the limit for both of them IMO. Defense will be their biggest issues at the NBA level but in time they should improve in that area as well.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Yes, Valanciunas has a ton of potential too, but he looks further away. For a guy who won't be the first option - probably at least during his rookie contract - he needs to learn to pass out a lot more. He's unselfish but tunnel visions a lot when he gets the ball in the paint. Far too many turnovers. Even his teammates often look frustrated and hesitant to pass. And he looks far less powerful than Kanter. Defense is horrible.
    But the motor is clearly there, and there are lots of flashes of every kind almost every game. He could easily become a Varejao plus a great pick and pop game.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    Yes, Valanciunas has a ton of potential too, but he looks further away. For a guy who won't be the first option - probably at least during his rookie contract - he needs to learn to pass out a lot more. He's unselfish but tunnel visions a lot when he gets the ball in the paint. Far too many turnovers. Even his teammates often look frustrated and hesitant to pass. And he looks far less powerful than Kanter. Defense is horrible.
    But the motor is clearly there, and there are lots of flashes of every kind almost every game. He could easily become a Varejao plus a great pick and pop game.

    I think Jonas will have to be the 1st or 2nd possibly 3rd who eles will be? I think it will go Derozan Jonas and Andrea. That Raptor team is bad. Kanter is lucky he has tons of talent around him and can ease his way into the Jazz lineup and learn and practice will guys who will push you in Milsap and Al.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Well Jonas will get a year to develop in Europe.
    But right now I guess Jonas would only be the 6th option on that roster, after Bargnani, DeRozan, Kleiza, Barbosa and Calderon in some order. He's worse than all those players, and he's more turnover prone. Btw, it's quite possible he's not even a starter during his rookie year - it could be a Bargnani / Davis frontcourt.
    But indeed, that roster needs major changes. I wouldn't be surprised if Bargnani and Calderon are gone by next summer.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    Well Jonas will get a year to develop in Europe.
    But right now I guess Jonas would only be the 6th option on that roster, after Bargnani, DeRozan, Kleiza, Barbosa and Calderon in some order. He's worse than all those players, and he's more turnover prone. Btw, it's quite possible he's not even a starter during his rookie year - it could be a Bargnani / Davis frontcourt.
    But indeed, that roster needs major changes. I wouldn't be surprised if Bargnani and Calderon are gone by next summer.
    did u watch Kleiza last year? The guy was a terrible signing he should of stayed over seas. Barbosa will likley be gone after next year and Calderon is a very good backup pg but he is a past first guy who doesn't take a lot of touches. But in all honesty that roster will look very different than it is now when he comes over. I think he will likely be a key player for them mainly because he is their best pure post player. I could even see their GM trying to trade Andre that team is a team in flux IMO.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    did u watch Kleiza last year? The guy was a terrible signing he should of stayed over seas. Barbosa will likley be gone after next year and Calderon is a very good backup pg but he is a past first guy who doesn't take a lot of touches. But in all honesty that roster will look very different than it is now when he comes over. I think he will likely be a key player for them mainly because he is their best pure post player. I could even see their GM trying to trade Andre that team is a team in flux IMO.
    Yeah, there are all those variables.
    The roster may change and it should. But it could change both ways. They will likely get Harrison Barnes or whoever next draft.
    Jonas may improve a lot.
    Kleiza may suck - but keep in mind, he played with an injury since preseason, and he looked like their best player during preseason; I was very impressed with that signing at the very start of the season but then it got mehh.
    Also, if you are playing say Miami, giving more touches to Jonas will likely be a better idea than scoring through the wings.
    And if Jonas plays a lot with the bench guys like James Johnson, Julian Wright, Amir Johnson or even Ed Davis, he'll get more shots.

    But if we are talking right now, there are many better offensive players on that roster. I just don't see how Jonas would score points consistently other than fastbreaks, put backs (after offensive boards) and broken plays.

    His main weapon is PnR -- but he often forces it when the help defense arrives in time. Teams will be ready in the NBA. He has to pass it out consistently, only then will it be a high value NBA weapon.

    Same goes for post moves. Too much forcing, too little passing. Maybe you have synergy breakdown on what's his turnover ratio on post up situations in mens competitions? I guess it's something north of 30% but I could be wrong. It certainly looks that way whenever I watch him.

    And I'm not sure how much he would play for Dwayne Casey with his current D. He needs to improve it a lot. It's at Bargnani's level. There's huge potential and energy but right now it mostly leads to fouls rather than stops. He uses his hands too much even for Europe. And it will get worse in the NBA.

    But I agree with you, a lot can change by next season. It's just that if he came right now, Raptors would be better off with Kleiza or Calderon taking the shots.
    Last edited by ballism; 09-07-2011 at 08:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Go France

    So glad we got out of the first round unbeaten. That will help a lot for the next set of games with tough opponents in Spain, Turkey and Lithuania.

    The Serbia game was amazing. They shot the lights out from long range I could not believe it. But we played our game, kept the ball moving inside-outside and eventually prevailed. Well done

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by BKK View Post
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    Go France

    So glad we got out of the first round unbeaten. That will help a lot for the next set of games with tough opponents in Spain, Turkey and Lithuania.

    The Serbia game was amazing. They shot the lights out from long range I could not believe it. But we played our game, kept the ball moving inside-outside and eventually prevailed. Well done
    Indeed, what a game. You guys kind of got lucky at the end, a missed layup with a few secs left and the Serbian guy himself was too shocked to even foul.
    But France looks stronger every game.
    I still doubt they'll win, the game is too limited to beat Spain. I wouldn't even bet on France against Serbia if they met again. But they could easily beat anyone on the other side of the bracket and get to medals.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    Indeed, what a game. You guys kind of got lucky at the end, a missed layup with a few secs left and the Serbian guy himself was too shocked to even foul.
    But France looks stronger every game.
    I still doubt they'll win, the game is too limited to beat Spain. I wouldn't even bet on France against Serbia if they met again. But they could easily beat anyone on the other side of the bracket and get to medals.
    Well the guy shot so many 3s during the whole game he forgot what a layup was

    I agree with you France is not on par with a few teams and indeed Spain is one of them. I'll be happy if we can be in the final four. It would already be a huge performance but I'm confident
    Last edited by BKK; 09-07-2011 at 01:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    That Turkey-France game was absolutely horrendous. Neither team could hit anything, especially from the outside (they both shot 35% from the field, and under 25% from 3).

    France has got to close out games better, and find a way to score points against the zone.

    Kanter didn't play much but he looked better than most other Turkish players. Turkoglu and Ilyasova were pitiful. Especially disappointed by Turkoglu. Omer Asik had a good game I thought.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Pingu View Post
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    That Turkey-France game was absolutely horrendous. Neither team could hit anything, especially from the outside (they both shot 35% from the field, and under 25% from 3).

    France has got to close out games better, and find a way to score points against the zone.

    Kanter didn't play much but he looked better than most other Turkish players. Turkoglu and Ilyasova were pitiful. Especially disappointed by Turkoglu. Omer Asik had a good game I thought.
    Indeed it was not a good game and France can't find a way to score vs zone defense. We've had the same exact problem for ages and we can't address it. Really pissed me of. Our lack of pure shooters does not help either.

    Still I'm happy we got the win against a tough opponent and are one step closer to the quarterfinals
    Last edited by BKK; 09-07-2011 at 05:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Ya I am re-watching the France Turkey game right now and until someone decides to guard Parker the French have a chance to win it all. He has looked so dominate all tourney and someone needs to actual play some tough defense on him. This game has been brutal but Asik has played well I though it was funny that it is Noah vs Asik and Asik out played him so far.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    This game has been brutal but Asik has played well I though it was funny that it is Noah vs Asik and Asik out played him so far.
    Yeah, and you could make a good case that Asik was the better player all tournament so far. And by a pretty big margin, on both ends. If only he could hit his free throws.
    It's nice to be the Bulls.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Ballism, i'm not sure that we are watching the same Jonas I mean your opinion, that Jonas is young and yet limited player who is not (yet) able to play at the highest level among grown men.
    He has been all around player playing against best teams - midrange shots, FT's, PnR, defence, fastbreaks. And if he gets ball in the paint - it's almost automatic 2 points. Most of the points he made against Spain he created by himself while playing aginst Pau Gasol. Right now - he is the best center on Lithuania NT. He is already an impact player.
    13 pts against Spain in 15 min. (5/7 FG)
    18 pts against Serbia in 20 min. (8/9 FG), which was most important game so far.
    Forget the age - what else would you want from center? Of course - there are lot of things to improve, there happen good/bad games, but it's not like he's a project with lots of potential - he already contributes massively at the highest level.
    I'm really sorry because of my english (which is my 3-4 language) and I really appreciate Your patience. I hope this board will make me better

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by DeS View Post
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    He is already an impact player.
    13 pts against Spain in 15 min. (5/7 FG)
    18 pts against Serbia in 20 min. (8/9 FG), which was most important game so far.
    I was breaking down skills. Stats mean little especially in such a small sample.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeS View Post
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    He has been all around player playing against best teams - midrange shots, FT's, PnR, defence, fastbreaks.
    He's been a far below average defender overall. There have been flashes, up and down games. But he's not a good defender, and he wouldn't be in the NBA right now.

    Midrange shots? He took like 3 or 4 because teams didn't bother to challenge him. He was wide open and ppl were daring him to shoot. And he passed a ton of wide open shots too. He took them against Spain as Spain's defence was crazy good. Everyone was taking unusual shots, including Jonas.
    I believe he will become a good PnP player, and I wrote exactly that. But he's not a consistent jump shooter right now and passes most of the opportunities.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeS View Post
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    And if he gets ball in the paint - it's almost automatic 2 points.
    Or an automatic turnover. He's one of the most turnover prone players in EuroBasket right now - if not the most. Like 3 turnovers per 10 possessions. It's a small sample size, but it's been a similar story in every men's tournament so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeS View Post
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    Most of the points he made against Spain he created by himself while playing aginst Pau Gasol.
    No he did not. Most of his points were non dribble catch and shoots. Most of them coming nifty passes in PnR or fastbreaks. He also took 3 or 4 unchallenged jumpers.
    I believe there was 1 shot that Jonas created on a post move. Btw, Pau is playing on a sprained ankle right now and looks pretty hesitant on D.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeS View Post
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    Right now - he is the best center on Lithuania NT.
    Which means he's better than Javtokas? Sure. At least for stretches.
    Lithuania kind of sucks at center position. There's a reason they mostly played small ball during last year's World Cup.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    As for the game against Spain - don't get me wrong, I loved that game by Valanciunas.
    For three reasons:
    1. passing. He made a few good passes. One of them was a brain fart by Spain who left a 3pt shooter open at the 3pt line right next to Jonas. But at least one of them came from a situation where Jonas usually forces a bad shot. And it was a flashy pass on top of it. So that's nice.
    2. mid rage shooting. Idk why he doesn't take them more often. He was blocked on one of them I think. But the open ones looked good.
    3. he did not, as you say, try to "create many shots" for himself in the post. He's not good at it right now. He can do it, he has that weird hook shot in the paint which works sometimes. But when there's help defense, even a triple team, he mostly still forces it and either loses the ball or gets blocked or misses. If he just made a pass or just took a turnaround jumper in those situations - his post up game would actually become a positive.
    That's why I'm very high on him. He has the tools, he shows the flashes almost every game.
    But he does so many things badly right now.
    Hopefully he can fix some of them during next season. If not, it will be a long rookie season in the NBA.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    Saw some games. Ex Pacers Sarunas still performing well.

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    Default Re: Eurobasket 2011

    s

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