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Thread: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

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    Default David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    Very interesting. He is good at what he does obviously.

    At one point, off the cuff, BS goes, why not merge Indiana and Milwaukee and move them to New Orleans?

    Stern goes on to talk about Mr Simon and how he is dedicated to Indiana.

    Its long but a good listen, I thought.

    http://espnradio.espn.go.com/espnrad...howID=bsreport

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    **** Bill Simmons.
    We need better than solid. No JJ Redicks, Andray Blatche, Mike Dunleavy type guys to have big roles on our team.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    Hahaha, yeah, I like Simmons' delivery and he's an interesting guy with vast knowledge, but his root thinking that bigger market teams are holier than thou ticks me off.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    Hahaha, yeah, I like Simmons' delivery and he's an interesting guy with vast knowledge, but his root thinking that bigger market teams are holier than thou ticks me off.
    Really? I'm not that familiar with his work, but after listening to that interview....I thought he came off like a 14 year old kid trying to debate the legal system with a Supreme Court Justice. Very out-matched. To me, he was literally made to look like an idiot every time he opened his mouth.

    Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but that is the way it came off to my ears.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    Really? I'm not that familiar with his work, but after listening to that interview....I thought he came off like a 14 year old kid trying to debate the legal system with a Supreme Court Justice. Very out-matched. To me, he was literally made to look like an idiot every time he opened his mouth.

    Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but that is the way it came off to my ears.
    He's not the ultimate b-ball scholar, but you don't write a well-received, 700+ page book called "The Book of Basketball" without knowing a thing or two.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    Simmons is very polarizing. Even more me. I love the guy, think he's hilarious. The fact that he was asking Stern questions noone else has really asked was awesome. But then him wanting to move the Pacers makes me wanna strangle him to death, lol.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    I get the sense that even Stern thinks Reggie should have been going into the HOF this year.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    I get the sense that even Stern thinks Reggie should have been going into the HOF this year.
    Haven't listened to the podcast yet, and doubtful I ever will, what makes you think that.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    About 90 seconds into the interview, Stern says he's at the Induction ceremony and Simmons brings up the lack of Reggie and Stern gets real quiet, hesitates for a second and says he doesn't make the decisions at the Hall. It really sounds to me that even STERRRRRNNNNNN didn't agree with the voters.

    EDIT: I really dislike Stern, but he is really kicking Simmons's teeth in on his whole anti-small market teams crusade.
    Last edited by Sandman21; 08-13-2011 at 01:32 AM.
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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    If Bill Simmons was from Portland and not Boston, he'd be infinitely more well-rounded and easier to agree with.

    He's got a big market bias simply because he's from a big market. His love of the Red Sox has also made him believe that baseball rules should apply to all sports, since he sees nothing wrong with the sox and yankees spending twice as much as every other MLB club.
    Last edited by Kstat; 08-13-2011 at 12:30 PM.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    I understand the argument that bigger markets make more money and maybe should be able to spend more for that fact, and I agree to a certain point. Stern makes a great point in the interview, though, when he says fans go to games in those large markets to see their teams play smaller-market teams from other cities around the country. Having teams spread out relatively evenly throughout America really makes it feel like a national league that spans a continent. I know a lot of what I learned about other cities as a kid was through watching their sports teams.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    That was some spicy commentary.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    I like to listen to Bill. there's things I agree on with him and others that I don''t agree on, but I like the way he still does interviews longer then 5 minutes, so you get the nuance of several stories.

    Besides that he's got humor and I think he's fun to listen to and not just when it concerns Basketball or even sports in general. I remember he had a discussion about what was the better series: The Wire of Breaking Bad. Obviously it's The Wire, though BB is good too, but on another level. Anyway I really liked listening to the two of them talking about something entirely different then hoops.
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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    Simmons might have a big market bias, but he's basically right on one hand. The league over-expanded and as a result we have way too many bottom feeding teams. That's not saying small markets shouldn't have teams, instead it means that waaaaaay too many have been added over the past 20 years.

    Was it really necessary to create the Bobcats just two years after the Hornets left Charlotte? Did we really need the Canadian teams, which by most objective measures were a failure? The Grizz left after just 6 years and the Raptors haven't exactly set the world on fire.

    Stern over-expanded. That's not ripping on big markets, it's just stating the truth.

    Even Stern himself seems to realize the mistake:

    http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssp...48484/31322835
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-15-2011 at 08:15 AM.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    I do not think for one second that the expanding into Toronto was a mistake at all. They draw very well, that is a huge international market. The NBA has made a lot of money with their expansion into Toronto

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Simmons might have a big market bias, but he's basically right on one hand. The league over-expanded and as a result we have way too many bottom feeding teams. That's not saying small markets shouldn't have teams, instead it means that waaaaaay too many have been added over the past 20 years.

    Was it really necessary to create the Bobcats just two years after the Hornets left Charlotte? Did we really need the Canadian teams, which by most objective measures were a failure? The Grizz left after just 6 years and the Raptors haven't exactly set the world on fire.

    Stern over-expanded. That's not ripping on big markets, it's just stating the truth.

    Even Stern himself seems to realize the mistake:

    http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssp...48484/31322835

    The above post is pretty much wrong on every single count.

    The problem with the Hornets wasn't Charlotte, it was George Shinn. The Bobcats suck because they have poor management, not because they play in Charlotte.

    North Carolina is a massive basketball hotbed. It's absurd to criticize expansion into a market where basketball actually surpasses football.

    Also, FYI there were just as many bottom-feeding teams in the 80's and 90's. The only difference now is there are more good teams. There's a reason the 8th seed never even came close to beating a #1 for the first 10 years of the 16-seed format, and now it's not even a surprise when it happens.

    Also, as UB mentioned, the Raptors are relatively successful in Toronto.

    Of course, putting all that aside, Toronto is the biggest city in Canada, and bigger than any US city outside of New York, so one would would have trouble fathoming exactly in what universe Toronto is a "small" market to begin with....
    Last edited by Kstat; 08-15-2011 at 09:01 AM.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    So contraction is a perfectly valid option, but the expansion of the league was the right thing to do?

    Wow, that makes a TON of sense.

    You can argue Char. should have a team. Okay, I agree. You can argue Toronto needs a team. Okay, I agree.

    But the league is too big. If Char. needs a team, then move one there. If Toronto needs a team, then move one there.

    But the league, as it's currently constructed, cannot support 30 teams, which is what Adam is saying. You latched on to the cities, rather than the total number of teams.

    You can put a team in Toronto, or back in NC, and not expand the league.
    Last edited by Since86; 08-15-2011 at 02:46 PM.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    The NBA has expanded by one team over the last 16 years. That seems pretty stable to me....

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    And yet how many have moved? That doesn't seem very stable to me......

    Maybe we have different definitions of the word "stable."
    Last edited by Since86; 08-15-2011 at 03:30 PM.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    ...except you aren't criticizing relocation. You're criticizing expansion. Actually, you just advocated relocation in your previous post.

    Can't have it both ways.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    I'm gonna move my edit to a new post.

    I don't even know how you can up with one. Both Toronto, and the Griz were formed in 1996, which would make two teams in 16 years. Petty? Yes.

    Plus, that's ignoring the fact that 4 other teams were introduced just 8 years earlier.

    So 6 teams in 24 years, and out of those 6, 2 of them remain in the cities they started out in. Toronto and Orlando.

    The league is in a constant state of fluctuation. Whether it's expanding to Vancouver and then leaving for Memphis. Or the Hornets fleeing Charlotte and going to New Orleans only to be replaced two years later.



    I'm not trying to have it both ways. The league is too big and can't support 30 teams, that's the entire point. Toronto can have a team, that does well, while hurting the rest of the league. It's not like the status of the league is attached to the hip of every team. One city/team can be productive, while the rest of the league (as a whole) is going backwards.
    Last edited by Since86; 08-15-2011 at 03:32 PM.

  31. #22
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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    The more teams, the more diluted the talent. I would say that a smaller NBA would be a better league...but that's JMHO.

    Begin by dropping the Lakers, Bulls, Heat, Knicks and Celtics.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The problem with the Hornets wasn't Charlotte, it was George Shinn. The Bobcats suck because they have poor management, not because they play in Charlotte.

    North Carolina is a massive basketball hotbed. It's absurd to criticize expansion into a market where basketball actually surpasses football.
    Both times there is one thing in common Charlotte.

    Also North Carolina is a hot bed for college basketball. It is more like Indiana than New York. Indiana is a huge basketball hotbed, yet the team struggles to make money almost every year, and when the team is struggling struggles to put people in the seats. Indiana loves basketball, but unless the Pacers are winning really couldn't care less about the NBA and the Pacers.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The above post is pretty much wrong on every single count.

    The problem with the Hornets wasn't Charlotte, it was George Shinn. The Bobcats suck because they have poor management, not because they play in Charlotte.

    North Carolina is a massive basketball hotbed. It's absurd to criticize expansion into a market where basketball actually surpasses football.

    Also, FYI there were just as many bottom-feeding teams in the 80's and 90's. The only difference now is there are more good teams. There's a reason the 8th seed never even came close to beating a #1 for the first 10 years of the 16-seed format, and now it's not even a surprise when it happens.

    Also, as UB mentioned, the Raptors are relatively successful in Toronto.

    Of course, putting all that aside, Toronto is the biggest city in Canada, and bigger than any US city outside of New York, so one would would have trouble fathoming exactly in what universe Toronto is a "small" market to begin with....

    Toronto might be a large city, but it's a "small market" from a practical standpoint. It's a cold city that isn't in the US. I'm sure it's a cool city, but it's just not an attractive place for upper-tier NBA players to play in. Every great player they've had (Carter, Bosh, McGrady) has left. Have they ever signed a big name? Don't think so. Big city, but let's face it, many NBA player simply aren't interested in playing in a Canadian city when other options are on the table.

    "Relatively successful"? I don't know about that. Aside from the Carter-hype from 99-01, the team has been mediocre to downright horrid for the bulk of their existence. They've won only one playoff series.

    Attendance wise, they've had some fantastic seasons while also having season of hovering in the mid 80's capacity wise.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

    Again, when looking at the Canadian teams together, they were a failure. The Grizzlies couldn't have been any more of a failure in Vancouver and the Raptors at best have been "OK". That tips the scale towards "bad". They contributed absolutely nothing to the overall state of the NBA. The NBA did not need them.

    And the issue with Charlotte isn't about whose fault it was. The fact is, the team left. Was it absolutely necessary to give a small market an expansion team just two years after the Hornets left? Seattle got screwed too and three years later, they don't look to be getting a team any time soon. And Seattle is a much larger market than Charlotte.

    Why were the Bobcats necessary? Yeah, I realize Charlotte had good attendance at the beginning of the Hornets run, but that's because they got some absurdly lucky draft picks in Grandmama and Zo. That type of success is the exception to the rule for a young expansion team. What we've seen from the Bobcats is more of the norm. Mediocre team, mediocre attendance. It was completely unnecessary to put a team in Charlotte that soon. They add nothing to the league.

    You saying there were more bottom-feeding teams back in the day puzzles me a bit. Every time you add a team, you dilute the overall talent pool a bit more and ensure that there will be another lottery team. And despite the expansion, look at all the years over the past decade where the east has only had 3 or so teams that you could take seriously. You're saying it's not a surprise when an 8 seed beats a 1, but that statement sounds a bit ridiculous when you look at all of the pitiful 8 seeds from the East over the past 10 years. Why does adding more teams mean there will be more good teams, when really all it's doing is adding more lottery teams?

    The number of "good" teams in the NBA varies all the time and doesn't seem to really hinge on the number of teams in the league. In 2011, yes, there will clearly quite a few "good" teams in the league who were legit title contenders. But if you chipped a few of the bottom feeders off, that wouldn't change anything. Go back to 2007 (maybe the worst NBA season ever), when there were 30 teams just like now, and the number of "good" teams was drastically less than it is now. It varies.

    Besides, I'm not saying we shouldn't have expanded at all. All I'm saying is that we did it about 4 or so times too many.

    The fact that Stern is even looking at contraction is pretty much acknowledging that it was a mistake. It's hard to contract, so it probably won't happen. But I bet he wouldn't have added as many teams if he could do it over again.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-15-2011 at 11:55 PM.

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    Default Re: David Stern on Bill Simmons Podcast

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    The fact that Stern is even looking at contraction is pretty much acknowledging that it was a mistake. It's hard to contract, so it probably won't happen. But I bet he wouldn't have added as many teams if he could do it over again.
    Eh. I think you misinterpreted the interview here.

    Stern spent most of his time on this subject highlighting that contraction hurts the player's union more than it does the owners (loss of thirty jobs, etc). I remember when I was smaller, I thought that mowing our family lawn was the coolest idea, and was pretty upset when my dad wouldn't let me. Then when he finally handed me the keys, I quickly realized how much it sucked. I think that Stern is handling this idea along the same lines.

    "Sure, if the players want contraction, I'll be glad to talk about it... it's on the table".

    Contraction won't happen, that's almost a guarantee. I think the whole point that Stern is making is that the NBA needs to cut expenses in order to generate profits which can be distributed back to players/owners. Right now the balance sheet is simply negative.

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