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Thread: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    Noone here knows what Bird is thinking.
    We can only wonder and speculate what he should think.



    The key is that it's completely realistic. Those are the minutes that Rush/Dahntay/Lance would get in current rotation at 2 and 3.

    PS: I wouldn't think Bird would target J-Rich, but that's beside the point.
    Absolutely, I was just speculating. I picked J Rich as an example since he's a free agent right now, but insert any vet starting caliber guy.

    I guess to clarify, I'm okay to get a vet starter at 2 guard, I just don't think you need to. If you do, I wouldn't spend much and therefore probably another reason I'm good with investing in Paul George at that spot.

    Its a fluid thing, though.

    I felt like Paul made huge strides over the course of last season, maybe not statistically, but overall game play. I think he developed faster than any young Pacer I've seen in years. If we start to see that he's tapering off and you start to see a ceiling or things he's incapable of improving on, then I'd revisit a need for a starting 2 guard.

    I'm pretty high on him defensively, I think he has size and quickness that really gives guys trouble. I think he merits start based on that alone, but thats not all he brings to the table. I'd almost bet money he comes back with a better 3 shot and shoots a significantly higher percentage. Its one of those things, for me, PG brings really good defense and doesn't take anything else off the table. Thats pretty good, especially for a team who needs two way players. I can see Paul being top 15 in steals as soon as next year, if he gets minutes and I don't even think that glam stat will even tell the whole story on what he brings defensively, imo. BTW, I am not just judging it on him guarding DRose in the playoffs. He did a nice job those last set of games, across the board, imo.

    Right now, though, I'd play him and George Hill every 2 guard minute available and feel good about the position going into next year, big time.

    Another thing, its not only a minute thing for me. I want him to have responsibility to maximize his development. If you bring in a vet starter, I think it might get in the way of that.

    Honestly, I'd look at Point Guard, Power Forward, and maybe even Center starter upgrades before I'd look at starting Shooting Guard going into year two of Paul George. Thats just my opinion, though.
    Last edited by Speed; 08-02-2011 at 10:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    I agree with that general thinking. And I view George pretty much the same way.

    But I just view Rush and Dahntay as pretty bad players (for a playoff team). And I wouldn't mind us to bench or trade them. Right now they are bound for big minutes.
    To me, this isn't about George at all. George gets big minutes either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    I wouldn't spend much and therefore probably another reason I'm good with investing in Paul George at that spot.
    I don't care about price as much as contract length and remaining cap.
    Just for example. Lets say we get Iguodala's 3 year deal at high salary but we manage to include Posey in the deal. That would be perfect in my book.

    Dahntay&Rush are basically out of rotation. We have one of the best wing rotations in the league. We can be patient with George for 3 years, yet he still gets huge minutes every night. AND we have a ton of cap space to make a run at any FA power forward and fill out the rotation.

    What's not to like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Right now, though, I'd play him and George Hill every 2 guard minute available.
    That won't happen though.
    Hill will play a ton at 1 and George will play a ton at 3. Right now PG seems to be by far our best backup for Danny. And there may even be some 4 guard units with George at 3 and Danny at 4.

    In other words, there's no way PG and Hill split all 2 guard minutes. There's realistically some 25 SG minutes left for Dahntay, Rush and Lance right now.

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  4. #53
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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    With Granger, Paul George, George Hill, Brandon Rush (no, I don't think he will get traded at this point due to the focus being defense and shooting on the wings coupled with his now being a known player with a history of positive drug tests that has shown the effects of it in his play), and the "best player" Lance (a relatively small wing who can throw flashy passes), with Dahntay Jones (no, I don't think he will be traded either unless he is a throw-in on a deal for a PF), and a likely mid level exception (or whatever comes about as a result of the new CBA) type signing of Dunleavy as a second unit passer (somebody has to pass the ball to allow offensive flow, and Dunleavy is the best we have had at that, with McRoberts second), I can't imagine signing another wing unless one of our better wings is traded.

    So, if he does want wings, either Bird needs to drink some Red Bull (they say Red Bull gives you WIIIIIIIINNNGS!!!!!), or go to Hooters a few times (I hear they have some good hot wings, too!).

    Otherwise, I think Bird has more of a hankerin' for Wendy's. I can still see the old lady demanding to know "Where's the beef ?!?!?!?!?", or I would guess that the commercial stating "Beef: It's What's for Dinner." would seem to resonate with him. I would say either Bird hopes that Hansbrough turns into the monster 4 that he believes he will, or he wants to go out and get one.

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  6. #54
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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    Those of us who have high hopes for Lance (which includes Bird) would want minutes remaining for him. As spelled out above, there may be plenty of minutes left for Paul George if we pick up another hot wing from Hooters, but not for Lance.
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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    signing of Dunleavy as a second unit passer.
    The discussion is basically about Dunleavy's spot. Not whether to add Dunleavy AND another wing. That would be 2 wings. And it wouldn't make any sense. For all Dunleavy's faults, he's too good to be 5th wing nor would he want to.

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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    interesting reading the discussion. where you stand on the pacer's need of another wing depends on if and where you think lance stephenson ends up playing.

    i think lance will be the backup PG at the start of the season with a chance to be the starter by the end of the season. similar to what PG did last season at the 2.

    i think GH will get backup 2 minutes mainly with lance. and depending on how well lance and DC play, he could be some PG minutes also. especially with lance. some cross matching on defense where GH guards the 1 and lance the 2.

    it seems obvious that PG will get the starters minutes at the 2. and danny will get the starter minutes at the 3.

    the real question is not the 2, those minutes will be used up by PG and GH. the question is the backup 3. if PG can play the backup 3, [i.e. if he is strong enough to play the SF] then there will be no need for any more wings. if not, then the pacers have some need of a backup type SF wing. dahntay or brandon both are capable of playing that spot, but neither are as big and strong enough to be desirable there.

    tell you what would be really nice. if james posey came into next season able to play the backup 3 like he used to. that would be nice.

    but mainly saying, if lance is able to take rotation minutes, then the pacers do not have any need on another wing. if lance cannot take rotation minutes, then the pacers need a wing to get his minutes at the 2 and 3. GH moves to backup 2. personally i would be OK with brandon getting those minutes. this is a contract year for him, so he should be motivated to play hard. and if he plays hard, then brandon is a decent player.

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  11. #57
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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    I guess I'm more okay with D Jones or BRush getting back up minutes than most. If Danny plays 36 and Paul plays 30 that leaves 12 at the Small Forward and 18 at the Shooting Guard. I'd be good with George Hill getting the majority of those 2 guard extra minutes.

    Or if you really tightened the rotation for the playoffs, it could look like this.

    Point
    DC 36 mins
    Hill 12 Mins

    Shooting Guard
    Paul George 24
    George Hill 24

    Small Forward
    Danny 36 mins
    Paul George 12

    All 4 guys get 36 mins, not ideal in January of a long season, but around playoff time if thats your strongest players, so be it, imo.

    I like the idea of Hill/Lance combo, but I'm not putting any stock into Lance until we see something stable from him.

    Otherwise, if you dial back the minutes in a long season, I'd be fine with 16 minutes of BRush or 18 minutes of DJones. I think both are capable of that, easily.

    I'm not against getting an improvement at any position, I just wouldn't tie up cap space or a chunk of the spendable money on a wing, at this point, with this group.

    I know its not the intent of this thread, but if you get another wing, it does by default impact what you can do in the frontcourt. The team needs a defensive minded rebounding tough frontcourt player, another scoring threat in crunch time, and better play from the Point guard spot.

    Allocating money away from those more dramatic needs, hurts the ability to improve, imo, at least where things stand at this moment.

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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    The way I look at it....we could run a 9 man rotation with more then adequate minutes for anyone of consequence ( aka, Players that we care about ).

    Messy version:

    PG - DCollison ( 30 mpg ) / GHill ( 18 mpg )
    SG - New_SG_SF ??? ( 30 mpg ) / PGeorge ( 12 mpg ) / GHill ( 6 mpg )
    SF - Granger ( 30 mpg ) / PGeorge ( 18 mpg )
    PF - New_PF_C ??? ( 24 mpg ) / Hansbrough ( 24 mpg )
    C - Hibbert ( 30 mpg ) / New_PF_C ??? ( 6 mpg ) / Foster_or_New Backup_C??? ( 12 mpg )


    Cleaner version:

    Starters:

    1 ) DCollison ( 30 mpg )
    2 ) New_SG_SF ??? or PGeorge ( 30 mpg )
    3 ) Granger ( 30 mpg )
    4 ) New_PF_C ??? ( 30 mpg - 24 mpg as PF / 6 mpg as Center )
    5 ) Hibbert ( 30 mpg )

    2nd Unit:

    6 ) PGeorge ( 30 mpg ) or New_SG_SF ??? ( 30 mpg )
    7 ) GHill ( 24 mpg - 18 mpg as PG / 6 mpg as SG )
    8 ) Hansbrough ( 24 mpg )

    9 ) Foster_or_New Backup_C??? ( 12 mpg )

    The only way that Players like Inferno or BRush could get minutes is if there is no new Starting SG acquired/traded/signed and having PG start at the SG spot. But honestly, I'd prefer to get a new Starting Wing Man and have a 4-man SG/SF rotation of Granger/JRich/PG/GH ( or Granger/PG/Reggie Williams/GH ) instead of a 4-man SG/SF rotation of Granger/PG/GH and some amalgamation of Inferno/Lance/BRush.

    That would allow us to run a rather solid 9 man rotation where the Starters get at least 30 mpg ( which can be tweeked with +/- 2 mpg among the Starters and 6th Man ), the 2nd unit Players like GH and Hansbrough would get 24 mpg ( again can be tweeked by a few minutes by reducing the minutes of some of the Starters ) with a Backup Center ( likely Foster ) that would fill out the rest of the minutes and roster.

    This is also why I would want to get a Frontcourt Starter that is more of a Starting Quality PF that can play some backup Center minutes, why I would be "ok" ( but would mainly be disappointed for the above reason ) with going after a PF like David West and why I would strongly advocate going after Nene to fill out the rest of the Frontcourt.
    Last edited by CableKC; 08-02-2011 at 03:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    I really don't think we want or need another wing. I think George Hill was the addition that we wanted. We have a roster loaded with efficient style players and I love that. BRush should get some minutes between SG and SF. I would like to see Hill start at PG, but I think that Collison is a better fit with George and Granger on the starting unit. Hill would be great next to Stephenson, Rush, or Jones. Stephenson from what I know has been a faily inefficient player that can score and create with the ball in his hands. I think Hill and Rush are better at playing off the ball on the second unit without needing the ball in their hands. We just have too many guys to split minutes as it is and we don't really have a need for another body. A two-for-one type of deal where we take on more money for a better player is what we need, but you typically don't see those trades. The only way that would happen is if we give up George or Collison. I would be ok with Collison, but not George.

    We need front court players. We need bodies, which is how we will use our roster spots. I really would focus on bringing in a solid starting caliber big so that we can upgrade next year at PG. No matter what, AJ Price and James Posey seem to be the odd men out. One of either Rush or Jones will probably lose most of their playing time as well. We cannot possibly play 9 people across 3 positions in any kind of rotation. Honestly a five man rotation is ideal across the three positions, but six makes sense with our roster. That would leave us with a four or five man rotation in the front court to leave us with anywhere from 9-11 guys in the rotation. I prefer a nine-man rotation.

    We seem to be building a team of efficient players. Hill, Granger, Rush, and Hibbert are all very efficient. Collison is not as much, but he is the one explosive speed guy. I think George could be insanely good if he works on being more efficient. If we pick up a player like Nene, it bolsters our front court with another guy who doesn't need a lot of touches to be effective. A lot of this has to do with good ball movement across all positions. I feel like being the most efficient team is the key to our long-term success. Granger is the veteran that leads by example. I would love to see him average 20 points on 12-13 shots per game and get to the line ~5 times per game.

    We have no room for another player between PG-SF. It is and should be all about the bigs for us this off-season.

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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    The way I look at it....we could run a 9 man rotation with more then adequate minutes for anyone of consequence ( aka, Players that we care about ).

    Messy version:

    PG - DCollison ( 30 mpg ) / GHill ( 18 mpg )
    SG - New_SG_SF ??? ( 30 mpg ) / PGeorge ( 12 mpg ) / GHill ( 6 mpg )
    SF - Granger ( 30 mpg ) / PGeorge ( 18 mpg )
    PF - New_PF_C ??? ( 24 mpg ) / Hansbrough ( 24 mpg )
    C - Hibbert ( 30 mpg ) / New_PF_C ??? ( 6 mpg ) / Foster_or_New Backup_C??? ( 12 mpg )
    That sounds about right to me. We can reverse the names around in case it's a backup not a starter.

    I'd expect Hill to play around 30 total MPG as he used to in San Antonio.

    I'd also expect Granger to play a bit as a small ball PF. This year he averaged around 25 MPG at SF and 10 at PF last i checked. I'd expect him to play less overall and especially less at PF.
    But I'd be surprised if he doesn't play small ball 4 at all.

    Keep in mind that in reality every player misses a couple games due to broken toe nails, etc. People have to step up. So you can add a minute or two to each of those numbers.
    What looks like "30 MPG" will end up more like "32 MPG over 78 games" in most cases.

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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    The discussion is basically about Dunleavy's spot. Not whether to add Dunleavy AND another wing. That would be 2 wings. And it wouldn't make any sense. For all Dunleavy's faults, he's too good to be 5th wing nor would he want to.
    Dunleavy should be the 4th wing if he is signed here, assuming that Paul progresses and Hill can bring what we have been led to believe. He would dictate the flow of the offense for the second unit, and get plenty of minutes. A combination of Dunleavy, Paul George, McRoberts, and another big to be signed later could elevate the second unit significantly due to ball movement and team defense that could be played. We could even try Lance at the point in a situation like that and not completely stagnate even if he is bringing the ball up the floor.

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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Dunleavy should be the 4th wing if he is signed here, assuming that Paul progresses and Hill can bring what we have been led to believe. He would dictate the flow of the offense for the second unit, and get plenty of minutes. A combination of Dunleavy, Paul George, McRoberts, and another big to be signed later could elevate the second unit significantly due to ball movement and team defense that could be played. We could even try Lance at the point in a situation like that and not completely stagnate even if he is bringing the ball up the floor.
    I think it would be better to just let Dun move on. Too much of a recipe for chemistry problems.

    Given his starter/heart of the rotation role the past few years here, it would be difficult for him to sit so much.

    On another team, without that history, it wouldn't sting so much.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  19. #63
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    Default Re: Does anybody else wonder if Bird wants another wing? Or are we all set?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Dunleavy should be the 4th wing if he is signed here, assuming that Paul progresses and Hill can bring what we have been led to believe. He would dictate the flow of the offense for the second unit, and get plenty of minutes. A combination of Dunleavy, Paul George, McRoberts, and another big to be signed later could elevate the second unit significantly due to ball movement and team defense that could be played. We could even try Lance at the point in a situation like that and not completely stagnate even if he is bringing the ball up the floor.
    I really don't see why Dunleavy keeps on coming up in this discussion about our Wing Rotation. Unlike the limited Frontcourt Free Agent options and therefore the liklihood when it comes to re-signing McBob, there are plenty of Wing options in the FA market that I'd much rather have IF we had to sign a rotational Wing Man...then keep Dunleavy. For example, I'd easily pay Reggie Williams the same amount of $$$ that would go to Dunleavy.

    I've seen what Dunleavy has done, I'll wish him luck if any Team offers him anything....but I've pretty much decided that it's simply time to move on and look for other options IF Bird truly was looking for an additional Wing to the 2nd Unit ( which I doubt he is ).
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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