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Thread: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

  1. #51

    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Football is a game of attrition. A good GM will build a roster to cope with that, even in the extereme, and going into a new year won't just be guessing that "our luck will turn" and everyone will be healthy.

    Players getting hurt are in part the GM's fault if nobody is there to pick up the slack. Drafting guys whose interest in football is so low that they'd rather play video games than practice is the GM's fault.

    Did injuries kill the Packers last year? I believe they were way up there on the most players on IR / most starters lost/ most starting player games lost stats.

    Most NFL teams have significant injuries and have to go on into the playoffs without a dozen or more guys that they were counting on. What is really odd is when one of those teams publicly whines about it, from the owner on down to the last player on the bench.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    You can only have a 53 man roster, or atleast could. There are 22 starting positions in football. That's not including positions like PK, punter, long snapper.

    So right there you have 25 players, who are just starters or purely skill players.

    Out of the remaining 28 players, how many back-up OLinemen do you need? How many DLinemen? How many LBs? How many DBs?

    You only get so many players, which is why your backups often times are primary backups for multiple positions.


    Just because the Packers had a lot, and were able to overcome them and win, doesn't mean that the Colts should be held to the same standard.

    Timing of injury, severity, time to recover from injury, all are different for each player and team. You can't compare the two situations on the same team, let alone different teams.

    Is it a built in excuse? Sure, maybe. But it's the truth. Sometimes **** happens, and you can't overcome it. Is it the "fault" of anyone, or is it just the situation you find yourself in due to uncontrollable circumstances?

    More often than not it's just uncontrollable circumstances.


    Bob Sanders bucks the idea. Polian held on to him way too long, but it would have really hurt if Bob would have, or even if, kept healthy for another team.

    And yet we have another thread discussing some FAs the Colts did sign. People are just upset because they don't go out and overpay for FAs that get gobbled up first.


    Yes, the Colts need to upgrade some positions. They need more depth. But going out and trading/signing for players like Haynesworth/Asomugha isn't the answer either. You can't make moves just to make moves.

    If Polian had Jerry Jones as an owner, or even Dan Snyder, who just don't care about spending money, then I would want to see more risks taken. But they don't own the Colts.

    I don't expect the Simons to spend like Jerry Buss, and I certainly don't expect Jim Irsay to spend like Jerry Jones.

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  5. #53

    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If Polian had Jerry Jones as an owner, or even Dan Snyder, who just don't care about spending money, then I would want to see more risks taken. But they don't own the Colts.

    I don't expect the Simons to spend like Jerry Buss, and I certainly don't expect Jim Irsay to spend like Jerry Jones.
    Why is there a financial effect at all? Last year, with no cap, was an aberration, but even then there were very few owners spending like crazy (I think Jerry Jones topped the list).

    Polian's hands are not tied by totally funds to use, any more than any other GM. There's a salary cap, and a salary floor, and for this year and next, at least, the floor is like 95% or more of the cap. Cheapskate Mike Brown in Cincinnati will spend at least 95 cents for every dollar Jerry Jones spends.

    I would imagine over time the Colts have spent about as much as everyone else, so I'm not seeing how that is some sort of special hardship that Bill Polian has to deal with.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Polian drafted Manning over Leaf.

    That gives him a pass for all his stupid draft mistakes. Ugoh, Pollack, Brown, & Hughes. Keep in mind Matt Millen missed a lot w/ earlier picks. Millen drafts WR's like Polian draft offensive line man.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    You just shifted the argument to how the Colts were ran, under the old CBA, to how they are going to be ran under the new CBA.

    I'm not fimiliar enough with the details to really give a good answer. My answer depends on the answer to a pretty important question.

    How is the salary cap setup? Is it a softcap, like the NBA?

    If that's the case, then no, Mike Brown isn't going to pay 95cents to every $1 that Jerry Jones spends. Jones is merely going to continue to overpay, and just pay the penalty.

    Which is exactly what Jerry Buss does, and something the Simons cannot do.

    And if it's a hardcap, then you can point out that overpaying for one players can cripple the rest of the team.


    But then again, that is a question that will be answered in the future, since there's a new CBA, and you can't base an answer on how they handled business under the old CBA.

    I'm not claiming hardship. He could very well have the ability to overpay players. That really doesn't matter. What he's able to do, and what he's willing to do, are two completely seperate things.

  8. #56

    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    It's a hard cap and has always been a hard cap, since free agency began in the NFL. There was always a maximum and a minimum each team could spend, and the range used to be greater, but it was never huge. If one team was spending up to the cap of say100 million, other teams had to spend above the floor, which was less but was something like 90 million or so. Now the range is really tight.

    The only effect big markets have on football is in the non-player expenditures. I guess you could say that some teams, with higher mechandise sales, can afford more scouts and support staff. At least that's what Mike Brown and family always argued in Cincinnati

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    That's kinda a half truth. The NFL always have had ways around the cap. Non-guaranteed contracts, signing bonuses that don't fully go against the cap, incentives. There's a number of different ways to hand out money to players, while avoiding a full cap hit.

  10. #58

    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    signing bonuses are part of the cap- it is spread out over the length of the contract.

    I think that money for most contract clauses even count under the cap. There is some formula the league office uses that calculates how likely it is to achieve the incentive, and if it is deemed likely and it is indeed met, it counts against the cap. For example, if Peyton has a clause calling for a 100K bonus for making the pro bowl, the formula would show it as a likely attainable incentive (he's made it often), and it would count against the cap. If Pierre Garcon had the same contract clause and if he made the pro bowl, his pro bowl bonus wouldn't count against the cap because at the time of the contract, it was an "unlikely to achieve" incentive.

    Nonguaranteed contracts are a way around, but most have a signing bonus, and the pro-rated signing bonus is a cap charge, even if the player is cut.

    There must be some type of loopholes I'm not aware of, though, to make certain odd facts possible, such as how Peyton's cap hit is 16 million on a contract that averages 18 million and is actually front-loaded so that the the first year the compensation (including pro-rated signing bonus) is 23 million. It would seem to me the cap hit ought to be 18 million or more.

    Maybe there are small percentage adjustments with veteran players. I know that if you sign a vet with 5+ years experience and he makes minimum salary, your cap hit is zero dollars for him. I think the cap hit for a vet making more than the minimum is also reduced by the minimum salary amount. That's a little clause that players got to incentivize keeping veterans.

    The bottom line is that, however, NFL payroll varies in a narrow range of under 10% (and less now), unlike NBA and MLB. Also NFL total revenue is like 95% TV revenue and is shared equally. NFL ownership is very much a socialistic experience from the revenue side.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 08-02-2011 at 03:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    I have seen multiple people say bonuses don't go against the cap here lately. Or say that it goes against the cap less than the normal pay.

    Both are entirely untrue and I have no idea where people got these ideas.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    I have seen multiple people say bonuses don't go against the cap here lately. Or say that it goes against the cap less than the normal pay.

    Both are entirely untrue and I have no idea where people got these ideas.

    Because there are so many loopholes, and exceptions, and rules about re-negiotated contracts, waived/released players, having an exception to be able to waive 2 players after July 1st, etc.

    The rules are complicated, and drawn out, and ever changing. With it comes confusion.

    http://www.eaglescap.com/analyzingCBA.html

    There's an article about the cap hits, and even the explanations are confusing.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Polian's drafts since we won the Super Bowl in 06-07 have been very poor for the most part. Many GM's could have (did do) done better.

    Injuries hurt, and there is no doubt we had a ton of them last year. But when you draft as badly as we have for the past few years then it makes an already bad problem even worse.

    Our first rounder last year could barely get on the field. And if he was capable of playing a lot then he would have given that Freeney and Mathis are old and could use the rest.

    Polian is good, but many GM's could have constructed a roster around Manning that yielded one Super Bowl. Not saying any idiot off the street could, but many capable NFL GM would have been able to. Glenn and Harrison, two cornerstones of the Manning-era success, were already here when Polian arrived. He then had to make the choice to draft Manning and to his credit, he made the right choice. But the majority of people in the know would have picked Manning over Leaf. Not everyone, but the majority. So he basically started with a core of Manning -Tarik - Harrison. Many GM's could have constructed a Super Bowl roster around that. He's made plenty of great moves and deserves credit for them but "greatest GM ever" is a bit of a stretch, IMO.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-02-2011 at 04:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    What other GMs have taken 3 different franchises to 7 different SBs? The work he did in Carolina, taking an expansion team to the SB in a matter of years was/is one of the most incredible things. Very, very few could have done what he did.

  16. #63

    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Polian's drafts since we won the Super Bowl in 06-07 have been very poor for the most part. Many GM's could have (did do) done better.

    Injuries hurt, and there is no doubt we had a ton of them last year. But when you draft as badly as we have for the past few years then it makes an already bad problem even worse.

    Our first rounder last year could barely get on the field. And if he was capable of playing a lot then he would have given that Freeney and Mathis are old and could use the rest.

    Polian is good, but many GM's could have constructed a roster around Manning that yielded one Super Bowl. Not saying any idiot off the street could, but many capable NFL GM would have been able to. Glenn and Harrison, two cornerstones of the Manning-era success, were already here when Polian arrived. He then had to make the choice to draft Manning and to his credit, he made the right choice. But the majority of people in the know would have picked Manning over Leaf. Not everyone, but the majority. So he basically started with a core of Manning -Tarik - Harrison. Many GM's could have constructed a Super Bowl roster around that. He's made plenty of great moves and deserves credit for them but "greatest GM ever" is a bit of a stretch, IMO.


    Yep especially since other GMs have done more than he has and have the rings to show for it.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    What other GMs have taken 3 different franchises to 7 different SBs? The work he did in Carolina, taking an expansion team to the SB in a matter of years was/is one of the most incredible things. Very, very few could have done what he did.

    He's taken 2 different franchises (Bills and Colts) to 6 different Super Bowls. He didn't take Carolina to the Super Bowl. They got to the NFC Championship game in 1996, their second season of existence, where they lost to the Packers. Still a noble achievement, no doubt, but not a Super Bowl.

    We can talk about Polian's past accolades and that's fine because he's had a decorated career as a GM and deserves a lot of praise. But none of that changes the fact that our drafting since 2007 has been very poor for the most part. Many NFL GM's could have drafted us better goods than the ones we've picked over these last few years.

    Just because a GM was great in the past doesn't mean they are great any more. Like players or coaches, they too can lose their touch after a long time.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Well then, I guess I need to change my opinion on MJ's legacy. That stint he had with the Bobcats must drop him down too........

    4 average years of GMing doesn't erase, or even change 20+ years of being a great GM.


    I don't think football knowledge, scouting, etc magically disappears. So what he's had a couple of rough years? I think it's more of trying to do patchwork on the roster, rather than taking the BPA, which IMHO you should always do in football.

    And besides, it looks like he's starting to work Chris into the scene a little bit more, so I can only assume he's already got the door open for his departure.

    I'm not making excuses, and trying to say he's done a good job drafting. I'm saying his legacy isn't going to take that big of a hit because he start declining in his later years, which happens to everyone.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Well then, I guess I need to change my opinion on MJ's legacy. That stint he had with the Bobcats must drop him down too........

    4 average years of GMing doesn't erase, or even change 20+ years of being a great GM.


    I don't think football knowledge, scouting, etc magically disappears. So what he's had a couple of rough years? I think it's more of trying to do patchwork on the roster, rather than taking the BPA, which IMHO you should always do in football.

    And besides, it looks like he's starting to work Chris into the scene a little bit more, so I can only assume he's already got the door open for his departure.

    I'm not making excuses, and trying to say he's done a good job drafting. I'm saying his legacy isn't going to take that big of a hit because he start declining in his later years, which happens to everyone.

    I was never really questioning his legacy. He will no doubt exit with a strong one.

    The legacy doesn't make up for the poor drafting in recent years, though. But you seem to be in agreement with me on that so I won't harp on that any more.

    If you were grading him on his overall performance here from 1998-2010, what letter grade would you give him? Just curious. I'd have to think about it for a bit I think.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    I agree the stretch of 12 win seasons is a thing of the past but the Colts are a great football team & Polian deserves some credit. The league has changed in the past few years & the Colts have adapted.

    I saw on bodog. Colts over/under is 9.5 this year.

  22. #68

    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    bodog also doesn't have the Colts among the top 10 contenders to win the Super Bowl

    New England Patriots -- 13/2
    Green Bay Packers -- 7/1
    Philadelphia Eagles -- 8/1
    San Diego Chargers -- 11/1
    New York Jets -- 12/1
    Atlanta Falcons -- 14/1
    Pittsburgh Steelers -- 14/1
    Baltimore Ravens -- 16/1
    Dallas Cowboys -- 16/1
    New Orleans Saints -- 16/1

    as reported by ESPN boston

    http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots

  23. #69
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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    I wonder how many other GM's would be geniuses if they also had a couple of HoF QB's for the peak of their careers?

    The debate about Polian should be just as polarizing (IMHO) as the debate about Phil Jackson and the reason for his successful run as a coach.
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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I wonder how many other GM's would be geniuses if they also had a couple of HoF QB's for the peak of their careers?

    The debate about Polian should be just as polarizing (IMHO) as the debate about Phil Jackson and the reason for his successful run as a coach.

    Agreed.

    Harrison and Glenn, two of the biggest pieces of our success in the first half of the Manning era, were not even drafted by Polian. Polian comes in and 1998 when the Colts have the dilemma between Manning and Leaf. And wasn't the decision to draft Manning made by Polian, Irsay, and Mora? Since it was such a huge moment, they were all involved, IIRC. They made the right decision and get credit for it, but it's a decision that the majority of people in the know would have made. It wasn't exactly like snagging Brady in the 6th round.

    So Polian basically started his career here with: One of the greatest QB's ever, one of the greatest WR's ever, and a LT who protected Manning's blindside for 9 years.

    Many NFL GM's could have built a great team on such a solid foundation. It's practically guaranteed that you are going to have a lethal offense when you have those above three pieces. I think quite a few could have at least got one SB victory out of it. Maybe some could have even had more.

    Polian has made some great moves: Edge, Wayne, Freeney, Mathis, etc. But he's also made a decent amount of questionable decisions, particularly in the last several drafts. More importantly, the overall refusal to address certain problems that have existed for years is what drives many of us nuts. It reeks of blatant stubbornness.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-04-2011 at 08:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I was never really questioning his legacy. He will no doubt exit with a strong one.

    The legacy doesn't make up for the poor drafting in recent years, though. But you seem to be in agreement with me on that so I won't harp on that any more.

    If you were grading him on his overall performance here from 1998-2010, what letter grade would you give him? Just curious. I'd have to think about it for a bit I think.
    It would most certainly have to be atleast an A-. Manning over Leaf, while revisionist history is nice and all, wasn't such a common sense answer when it happened.

    Same goes for Edge vs. Ricky Williams.

    You screw up either one of those picks, and the Colts are completely changed. Drafting Reggie, while you had Marvin is also a great pick.

    Like I've already said. It comes down to your opinion on why some moves were made. I think Polian has been out of BPA mode for quite sometime, which is making him reach more when he's drafting. Instead of going after the biggest talent, he's going after need, and when you draft people out of position over and over again, it tends to snowball.

    We can talk about his first round gaffes all day. But then we also need to talk about his 6th round homeruns, like Beatha.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    I think he deserves more than Brady and I'm a Pats fan. I'm not saying he's better than Brady, but he is more important to the Colts success than Brady is for each of their respective teams. Now that is not to say that Brady isn't extremely important to the Pats because I don't believe they would make the playoffs without him..but they would at least win 6-7 games. You take Manning off the Colts and they are instantly a 2-3 win team (with the current roster).

  29. #73

    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    It's a hard cap and has always been a hard cap, since free agency began in the NFL. There was always a maximum and a minimum each team could spend, and the range used to be greater, but it was never huge. If one team was spending up to the cap of say100 million, other teams had to spend above the floor, which was less but was something like 90 million or so. Now the range is really tight.
    SO I did some digging and found this nugget.

    More specifically, beginning in 2006 each team had to pay a guaranteed Minimum Team Salary of 84% of the Salary Cap. Each year that percentage goes up by 1.2%, which means that it is 86.4% this season. However, the Minimum Team Salary cannot extend beyond 90% of the Salary Cap. Any shortfall in the Minimum Team Salary at the end of a league year has to be paid, on or before April 15 of the next league year, by the team(s) having such shortfall, directly to the players who were on that team's roster at any time during the season.
    http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/faq.asp

    I am not sure what happened before 2006 but a 15% difference in team salaires is IMO a big difference.

    I don't know if I would consider this a loophole but the writer goes on about how the old system was played with signing bonuses and contracts.

    If a player earns a contract that is 5 years and pays him a total of $20 Million, he counts $4 million per year against the cap, right?
    Answer: If it were only that simple.

    Teams with heavy payloads learned quickly that the best way to combat the Salary Cap was to circumvent it. They did this by back loading contracts, pushing all of the big money to the end of the contract. For example, a 5-year, $20 million contract (not counting a signing bonus) signed in 2005 as described above could possibly allocate the money in the following manner:

    Year 1 (2006): $450,000 (min. cap given to players with 4+ years experience)
    Year 2 (2007): $1 million
    Year 3 (2008): $1.5 million
    Year 4 (2009): $5 million
    Year 5 (2010): $12 million


    Okay...this helps the team in the first three years of the contract, but what happens when Year 4 hits and the salary begins to escalate?
    Answer: The team can do one of two things.

    They can either outright release the player (to avoid having to pay his salary all together) or they can renegotiate a more "cap friendly" contract.


    Question 1.7c
    Hold on. You said the team could release the player BEFORE the big money kicks in. Are you telling me that the contracts are NOT guaranteed?
    Answer: That's right. The team is not obligated to fork over the money for remaining years of the contract if they cut the player.
    OF course the signing bonuses are the reason the players sign such deals but this really boils down to guarantee money and nonguarantee money and what counts against the cap.

    For example I will use one of Polains mistakes ( Hayden's deal).

    Hayden signed a 5 year 43 mill dollar deal in 2009 which included a 13.5 mill signing bonus. The first year he was paid 17.5 mill but only counted 6.68 agianst the cap. We front loaded the contract and the signing bonus for the uncap year of 2010 much like the Cowboys did with Miles Austin.

    Polain paid much of Haydens guaranteed contract early on and the real reason why we paid him 17 mill the first year and he counted only 6.7 against the cap is becuase the guarantee money owed to him which includes the signing bonus can be spread out during 5 years even if he is cut before the 5th year.

    The uncap year caused a lot of teams to front load the contracts but now we will go back to backloading contracts.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 08-05-2011 at 01:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
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    Now that is not to say that Brady isn't extremely important to the Pats because I don't believe they would make the playoffs without him..but they would at least win 6-7 games.
    Or 11 like in 2008 when Brady missed the whole season......

    Would have easily gone to the playoffs in practically any other year. Not often that 11 wins leaves you on the outside looking in.

  32. #75

    Default Re: Does Peyton Deserve more $$$ Than Tom Brady?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I am not sure what happened before 2006 but a 15% difference in team salaires is IMO a big difference.
    In major league baseball the difference is a bit more than 15%, more like 561%
    (Not a typo, 202 million vs. 36 million)
    http://content.usatoday.com/sportsda.../salaries/team

    In the NBA in 2010 the difference was 316%
    (Not a typo, 91 million vs. 28 million)
    http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

    In the NHL in 2010 the difference was 239%
    (Not a typo, 71 million vs. 30 million)
    http://content.usatoday.com/sportsda.../salaries/team


    In the world's most-watch sports league, I'd guess, soccer's Premiere League, the salary difference is 659%.

    http://www.trophy4toon.co.uk/salaries.html


    So I think you'd agree that football is doing a remarkable job in obtaining payroll parity, at least relative to any other major pro league I can think of.

    More to the point here, where were the Colts in that 15% range and how far were they behind the Lombardi trophy winners each year, to contend that Polian's hands were tied by finances?

    I would guess that the Colt's payroll would be equal to the NFL champion's payroll in most years.

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