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Thread: IND and UTAH

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    @TRouse32 thatch3232's Avatar
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    Default IND and UTAH

    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=3htmfob

    IND Gets: Paul Millsap and Gordon Hayward

    UTAH Gets: Danny Granger


    We get a very good starting PF, as well as a solid young 2/3 to back-up Paul George and further improve our great bench. I love Danny and wish we could land a PF w/o losing him, but this is the time to trade him if we're ever going to.

    No doubt Pritchard would go for this, but convincing "Larry Legend" I feel would be a bit more difficult.

  2. #2

    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Gordon is still developing and who knows what he'll become. I don't think Milsap is much different than Hansbrough. I'm not a huge Danny guy but don't see the value.

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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    If we want the best Bench, this would be a step in the right direction.

    Have George start in place of Danny, Hans come off the bench, and Hayward to replace George as the primary wing backup. But not sold on the trade.

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    FREE LANCE MillerTime's Avatar
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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    we can get a lot more for Granger
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    @TRouse32 thatch3232's Avatar
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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    we can get a lot more for Granger
    I mean maybe a 1st round pick too, but i really think thats probly the best were gonna get. Unless we include a guy like Hansbrough

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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    we can get a lot more for Granger

    I'm not sure that I strongly disagree, but if we wouldn't make a trade for this -- which includes a legitimate starting-caliber power forward and a top 10 pick from last year's draft, not to mention it doesn't involve adding any huge long-term salary -- what exactly are we waiting for?

    I love Danny, and I think he's a very good player, but if you guys are holding out for a top 10 player, you are just going to have to keep waiting. If we don't make a deal like this, we had better be holding back because we feel like Danny is our guy.

    Last time I checked, a PF and a rebounding specialist are both pretty freaking high on our wish list for this offseason, and Millsap is both of those. I'll sacrifice a volume scorer (but a good one at that) that is inconsistent in most other areas of his game for a guy that fits our biggest needs and helps to balance our roster.

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    Rooting My Family 2 Glory CooperManning's Avatar
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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    we can get a lot more for Granger
    Doubt it. Hayward was the #9 pick a year ago, after all.

  10. #8

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    Not sure I am sold on this trade, I like Hayward but where is he going to play? We still wouldn't have an off guard, can Hayward play off guard? Will George play off guard? Millsap while good isn't the type of defender I would want next to Roy.

  11. #9

    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by thatch3232 View Post
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    http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=3htmfob

    IND Gets: Paul Millsap and Gordon Hayward

    UTAH Gets: Danny Granger


    We get a very good starting PF, as well as a solid young 2/3 to back-up Paul George and further improve our great bench. I love Danny and wish we could land a PF w/o losing him, but this is the time to trade him if we're ever going to.

    No doubt Pritchard would go for this, but convincing "Larry Legend" I feel would be a bit more difficult.
    This trade makes us worse, filling a need, to take a need a way. Just a terrible trade in my opinion
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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by notque View Post
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    This trade makes us worse, filling a need, to take a need a way. Just a terrible trade in my opinion
    All due respect, posts like this make me feel that some members of PD seriously overestimate Danny's value. Between this and some people thinking we'd be able to get #2 AND Kevin Love from Minnesota...


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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
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    All due respect, posts like this make me feel that some members of PD seriously overestimate Danny's value. Between this and some people thinking we'd be able to get #2 AND Kevin Love from Minnesota...

    You think I overestimate Danny's value because I wouldn't trade him for Gordon Hayward and Paul Millsap?

    That means you read way too much into the post, because it could mean a lot of things. Maybe it means I under value (or at least value less than you do) Paul Millsap and/or Gordon Hayward.

    You quote my words, make an assumption about them not based in any sort of evidence, compare them to another statement I didn't make, that Danny is worth a #2 and Kevin Love (he's not), and then call me crazy.

    Perhaps another possibility for what I mean is as follows,

    I believe that Danny Granger is a more valuable piece than Paul Millsap, and Gordon Hayward is about worthless in the deal because in the NBA what matters is consolidation of talent in bodies.

    Making a 1 for 2 trade like this usually results in getting the worst player in the deal, which rarely works out. I'd prefer to get the best player in the deal if we're looking on making deals.

    As I do not believe that Millsap is better than Granger straight up, I believe the deal is terrible.

    You can argue I'm wrong about this. There are a lot of very reasonable arguments to be made concerning the topic.

    If only you'd have made one.
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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by notque View Post
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    I believe that Danny Granger is a more valuable piece than Paul Millsap, and Gordon Hayward is about worthless in the deal because in the NBA what matters is consolidation of talent in bodies.
    In English please ??

  16. #13

    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    In English please ??
    In the NBA there are only 5 players on the court at any given time. 7-8 players generally play in a playoff rotation.

    We'll use an obviously flawed Metric, but a metric none the less to try to put this into perspective.

    82Games simple rating.

    Granger 3.2

    For

    Millsap 2.5
    Hayward Didn't have a rating due to not enough minutes played. Let's call him a 1st round draft pick.

    This is a normal, common deal. Utah is the one that "wins" this deal if all things are equal because in the NBA since there are only so many players that can play, you always want to consolidate your talent.

    You want the most possible talent at any given position. That is an upgrade in the NBA. Getting 2 pieces for 1, doesn't put you in a better position generally, because you need the most bang for your buck out of every position.

    This is clear right? We should ALWAYS trade two weaker pieces for a stronger one, and we should NEVER trade a stronger piece for 2 weaker ones.

    This deal goes into the NEVER category.

    The only reason you'd do this deal is if you believe that Hayward will develop into a Stronger piece than Millsap or Granger.

    And I don't believe there's any evidence to suggest that. So it's a bad deal.

    Make sense?


    Edit: I'd like to make it clear I don't agree with the simple rating, but I do agree with the basic premise, which is why I used it to illustrate the point. I believe Granger is better than Millsap and Hayward individually. If this is true, I believe the deal is a bad one based on the argument listed above. If you believe that Millsap or Hayward is better than Granger, then this argument would be for the trade. I just disagree with your premise.
    Last edited by notque; 08-01-2011 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Additional detail
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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by notque View Post
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    You think I overestimate Danny's value because I wouldn't trade him for Gordon Hayward and Paul Millsap?

    That means you read way too much into the post, because it could mean a lot of things. Maybe it means I under value (or at least value less than you do) Paul Millsap and/or Gordon Hayward.

    You quote my words, make an assumption about them not based in any sort of evidence, compare them to another statement I didn't make, that Danny is worth a #2 and Kevin Love (he's not), and then call me crazy.

    Perhaps another possibility for what I mean is as follows,

    I believe that Danny Granger is a more valuable piece than Paul Millsap, and Gordon Hayward is about worthless in the deal because in the NBA what matters is consolidation of talent in bodies.

    Making a 1 for 2 trade like this usually results in getting the worst player in the deal, which rarely works out. I'd prefer to get the best player in the deal if we're looking on making deals.

    As I do not believe that Millsap is better than Granger straight up, I believe the deal is terrible.

    You can argue I'm wrong about this. There are a lot of very reasonable arguments to be made concerning the topic.

    If only you'd have made one.

    If only I actually said anything directly to or about you. Just a general comment.

    But for what it's worth, in my opinion your post was just a lot of rambling and pretty much no substance.

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    @TRouse32 thatch3232's Avatar
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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by notque View Post
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    This trade makes us worse, filling a need, to take a need a way. Just a terrible trade in my opinion
    Were not taking a need away?? Paul George moves to the 3 and Gordon Hayward backs him up?? Plus we get a proven, above average PF to put in a tandem with Tyler!

    We're not getting an all-star in return, but we're getting to young talented players to add to our core for one veteran that has served his time here very well but needs to be moved while his value is still high.

    Just curious, what do you think we could get for Granger? Like specific player(s).

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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
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    Doubt it. Hayward was the #9 pick a year ago, after all.
    So what are your thoughts on this trade/what else you think we could get for DG?

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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    notque, I think has a very valid point. about consolidating talent, that being said I would strongly consider the trade. I personally don't think we would receive a much better offer for Danny. I like bringing in players closer in age to the rest of our core group and high character individuals (appears) as well, and both players seem to have offensive potential (Paul has already shown it). How it affects team chemistry would be my biggest concern.

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    Rooting My Family 2 Glory CooperManning's Avatar
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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    I think the trade is pretty fair and I'm a Danny fan. I'm not saying I'd definitely do it, but on a value-level, it's about equal. It comes down to how good Bird thinks Hayward's going to be. I don't have strong feelings about Hayward one way or the other, but just looking at the facts: 21 year old, #9 pick a year ago, drafted by the Jazz who are considered strong drafters, shot 47% from the three, came on pretty strong at the end of the season - he's a decent prospect.

    However people feel about Hayward's chance of success, you have to admit that if he actually did end up being good, it'd be a huge boost for the fanbase. It'd be like getting Alford back in the day, him actually succeeding AND having Reggie (Paul George).

    All this being said if we sign a guy like Humphries on a decent contract I'd rather just keep Granger.

    But I'd definitely rather trade Granger for Millsap/Hayward than for Al Jefferson straight up, which some have suggested.

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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
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    If only I actually said anything directly to or about you. Just a general comment.

    But for what it's worth, in my opinion your post was just a lot of rambling and pretty much no substance.
    Spreedom, I thought he made himself pretty clear and brought a lot of good points. Opinions, yes, but good points regardless. You did quote him in your post, so he was responding to you saying "posts like this..." in reference to his/her post. Not a big deal either way.

    I think the trade is terrible. I just don't think it fits what our team needs. Do we need a rebounding PF? Absolutely. I think Milsap is a downgrade in talent from Granger and it's why Heyward was thrown into the deal. I don't like Heyward as a prospect so he means little to me. If they want to trade us their 2012 first I would seriously consider the deal. My problem is that Hansborough isn't nearly as much of a downgrade from Milsap as Heyward is to Granger, IMO. I think our team is better off keeping Granger. If we were to offer George for Milsap, then I think the deal makes more sense. There is definitely a fit for trading with the Jazz based on our roster since we are heavily skewed with guards/wings and they are the exact opposite with mostly bigs they need to find playing time for.

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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    I think the trade is terrible. I just don't think it fits what our team needs. Do we need a rebounding PF? Absolutely. I think Milsap is a downgrade in talent from Granger and it's why Heyward was thrown into the deal. I don't like Heyward as a prospect so he means little to me. If they want to trade us their 2012 first I would seriously consider the deal. My problem is that Hansborough isn't nearly as much of a downgrade from Milsap as Heyward is to Granger, IMO. I think our team is better off keeping Granger. If we were to offer George for Milsap, then I think the deal makes more sense. There is definitely a fit for trading with the Jazz based on our roster since we are heavily skewed with guards/wings and they are the exact opposite with mostly bigs they need to find playing time for.
    No way we trade Paul George. He has the potential to be the new face of this franchise. I too think keeping Granger is ideal, but sometimes in the NBA you have to give up what is ideal for a move that could put your team in championship contention in a couple years.

    Are there more attractive trades for Granger, maybe. But this one is very fair and brings in 2 solid players that could help right away. I would for Utah to include their 1st instead of Hayward but I don't see that happening.

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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by thatch3232 View Post
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    No way we trade Paul George. He has the potential to be the new face of this franchise. I too think keeping Granger is ideal, but sometimes in the NBA you have to give up what is ideal for a move that could put your team in championship contention in a couple years.

    Are there more attractive trades for Granger, maybe. But this one is very fair and brings in 2 solid players that could help right away. I would for Utah to include their 1st instead of Hayward but I don't see that happening.
    I didn't say we should make the trade. I said it would make more sense.

    Millsap is closer in experience to Granger. We would want both on the team together. I think the Jazz wouldn't hesitate to make the George deal. I wouldn't do it, but if Millsap is clearly our best option, then it would be something to consider. As you said... "sometimes in the NBA you have to give up what is ideal for a move that could put your team in championship contention in a couple years". Maybe George doesn't progress like we hope he does.

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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    I didn't say we should make the trade. I said it would make more sense.

    Millsap is closer in experience to Granger. We would want both on the team together. I think the Jazz wouldn't hesitate to make the George deal. I wouldn't do it, but if Millsap is clearly our best option, then it would be something to consider. As you said... "sometimes in the NBA you have to give up what is ideal for a move that could put your team in championship contention in a couple years". Maybe George doesn't progress like we hope he does.
    Well trading off someone that has potential to be the face of our franchise (potential not for sure going to be) before we see if he will or not to get a veteran doesn't seem like putting a team in championship contention...

  27. #23

    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Not sure a Granger trade makes sense for Utah. It seems like they're moving in a younger direction now and trading for Granger would go against that. They'd probably be more interested in George, something like a PG + Posey for Burks + Millsap deal, which isn't a bad offer for us, but I doubt we'd do it given how high we are on PG.

  28. #24
    FREE LANCE MillerTime's Avatar
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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
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    Doubt it. Hayward was the #9 pick a year ago, after all.
    It doesnt matter what pick he was...Sam Bowie was the #2 pick back in 1984
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



  29. #25
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    Default Re: IND and UTAH

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    It doesnt matter what pick he was...Sam Bowie was the #2 pick back in 1984
    Yes, it doesn't matter where a player was drafted, but after only a year it is going to affect how much a team values them. If it's been 4-5 seasons, draft position is irrelevant, but after a single season, where they're still excited about the player, it matters. The Jazz and Jazz fans still love Hayward. If he was a complete bust, it wouldn't matter that he's the 9th pick. But since they still see him as a guy with a lot of potential, that high draft position is going to affect how much he's valued around the league, whether it should or not.

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