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Thread: New Report on David West's Knee

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    Default New Report on David West's Knee

    Summary from Rotoworld.com:

    Free agent David West's ACL tear was a "clean injury," according to his physical therapist.
    If there is such a thing as a "good" ACL tear, West had it. His knee ripped clean, not damaging any other ligaments or nerves around his knee. It's also a strong sign that West opted out of a $7.5 million contract in order to become a free agent. We're starting to become more confident that he can be effective right out of the gate whenever the NBA resumes
    and the source itself (which is just a good read in general):

    http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/07/...g-lockout.html

    Agree or disagree about this man but the Pacers definitely seem to be interested. The more this plays out the more likely it is to me that we will make some kind of 3-4 year offer in the 7-9 million range.

    And before everyone complains yes, he's been discussed at length already I know, so I wanted to focus this mainly on the progress of his ACL injury specifically and that maybe the comparisons to others who made solid quick recoveries is more apt here.
    I don't want to sound condescending, which means to talk down to you by the way

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Just because it was a good tear, that's odd to say, doesn't mean that he poses as a minimal risk for re-injury. He could re-tear it or tear something else just as easy as if he had a worse tear from the beginning.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Just because it was a good tear, that's odd to say, doesn't mean that he poses as a minimal risk for re-injury. He could re-tear it or tear something else just as easy as if he had a worse tear from the beginning.
    Completely false. When an ACL is repaired, it is actually replaced with a larger, stronger tendon than the original ligament. If it is repaired correctly, the simulated ligament is actually stronger than the original.

    In many cases the athlete is actually less susceptible to injury after the surgery. Having not damaged any other ligaments or cartilage is a strong indication that he will come back even stronger.
    Last edited by microwave_oven; 07-13-2011 at 04:55 PM.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Just because it was a good tear, that's odd to say, doesn't mean that he poses as a minimal risk for re-injury. He could re-tear it or tear something else just as easy as if he had a worse tear from the beginning.
    Well that applies to every player. Anyone can tear well... anything.

    The point here is that it didn't have the residual effects that many other big men seem to have when there is an ACL tear. This is part of the reason why its so common for other smaller players in basketball and football to come back from ACL injuries relatively well but big men had struggled.

    It doesn't make me think he is in the clear by a long shot but it does make me feel a bit better about it as a whole and maybe the comparison is better to say a Baron Davis and his ACL tear vs. Jermaine and his.
    I don't want to sound condescending, which means to talk down to you by the way

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    False? My degree is in exercise science, with a minor in athletic training, which is a pre-req for phsyical therapy etc. I'm pretty sure I know the subject but anyways.

    I can tell you names of mutliple friends, not even athletes, that have had multiple ACL tears. One friend was actually told that if she tore it again, they wouldn't be able to replace it. Another has had 3 surgeries on the same leg's ACL.

    Peyton Stovall played for BSU and tore his ACL twice, the last game of his Jr year, and then retore it early into his Sr. year, so he sat out the full year to rehab and got a medical redshirt for a 5th year of eligibility.
    Last edited by Since86; 07-13-2011 at 05:02 PM.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by A.B.Hollywood View Post
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    Well that applies to every player. Anyone can tear well... anything.

    The point here is that it didn't have the residual effects that many other big men seem to have when there is an ACL tear. This is part of the reason why its so common for other smaller players in basketball and football to come back from ACL injuries relatively well but big men had struggled.

    It doesn't make me think he is in the clear by a long shot but it does make me feel a bit better about it as a whole and maybe the comparison is better to say a Baron Davis and his ACL tear vs. Jermaine and his.
    You normally don't just tear just your ACL, or LCL, or whatever. You usually tear multiple pieces, which makes the whole knee even weaker as a whole once it's healed.

    All they're saying is that the rest of his knee has stayed structurally sound at the other points, not saying he's at less of a risk of re-injury.

    EDIT: The knee is going to strengthen the longer it stays healthy. But just because they only had to fix the ACL, doesn't mean that he's going to have less risk. It's still risky, he can still retear it.
    Last edited by Since86; 07-13-2011 at 05:03 PM.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    In those cases the surgery was not performed correctly. If it is performed correctly, it will be stronger. Of that I can assure you.

    Often times the surgery is performed with tendons from cadavers which, after time, begin to deteriorate.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by A.B.Hollywood View Post
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    Summary from Rotoworld.com:



    and the source itself (which is just a good read in general):

    http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/07/...g-lockout.html

    Agree or disagree about this man but the Pacers definitely seem to be interested. The more this plays out the more likely it is to me that we will make some kind of 3-4 year offer in the 7-9 million range.

    And before everyone complains yes, he's been discussed at length already I know, so I wanted to focus this mainly on the progress of his ACL injury specifically and that maybe the comparisons to others who made solid quick recoveries is more apt here.
    West made $8,287,500 last season. I would assume that he would demand more than that amount.

    It is really hard to say how much he can expect pending the new CBA.

    If the CBA is relatively similar to the prior CBA, I could see West fetching something like 5 years / $50 million (at least)
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by microwave_oven View Post
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    In those cases the surgery was not performed correctly. If it is performed correctly, it will be stronger. Of that I can assure you.

    Often times the surgery is performed with tendons from cadavers which, after time, begin to deteriorate.
    Then why do players usually wear a brace after they've injured their ACL? For comfort?

    No ideal graft site for ACL reconstruction exists; they all have advantages and disadvantages. Patella tendon grafts are still considered the historical "gold standard" for knee stability by surgeons, however they suffer a slightly higher complication rate, including knee pain such as when doing a lunge.[5]

    Hamstring grafts historically had problems with fixation slippage and stretching out over time. Modern fixation methods of hamstrings avoid graft slippage, producing outcomes that are the same in terms of knee stability with easier rehabilitation, less anterior knee pain and less joint stiffness.

    An allograft is a graft from a corpse, usually either a patellar tendon, hamstring tendon, and occasionally an achilles tendon. The advantage of an allograft is the patient does not sustain additional injury through removing a tendon, thus making it faster to recover. The disadvantage is the risk of infection by using foreign bodily materials and the graft is known to be slightly weaker. [6]

    A lesser known, but newer type of graft is a synthetic graft. Little data exists on its strength or reliability, but patients should be aware that the option exists. Typically, age and lifestyle choices help decide the type of graft to be used for ACL reconstruction. The overall factors in knee stability are correct graft placement by the surgeon and treatment of other menisco-ligament injuries in the knee, rather than choice of graft.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterio...reconstruction

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    West made $8,287,500 last season. I would assume that he would demand more than that amount.

    It is really hard to say how much he can expect pending the new CBA.

    If the CBA is relatively similar to the prior CBA, I could see West fetching something like 5 years / $50 million (at least)
    5 yrs 50 million dollars? Hopefully the pacers don't make a big mistake and sign him for a big, lengthy contract like that. That kind of money needs to be spent on elite players, not a solid player with a torn acl who's past his prime.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    False? My degree is in exercise science, with a minor in athletic training, which is a pre-req for phsyical therapy etc. I'm pretty sure I know the subject but anyways.

    I can tell you names of mutliple friends, not even athletes, that have had multiple ACL tears. One friend was actually told that if she tore it again, they wouldn't be able to replace it. Another has had 3 surgeries on the same leg's ACL.

    Peyton Stovall played for BSU and tore his ACL twice, the last game of his Jr year, and then retore it early into his Sr. year, so he sat out the full year to rehab and got a medical redshirt for a 5th year of eligibility.
    Robbie Hummel is my least favorite example of this.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Just because it was a good tear, that's odd to say, doesn't mean that he poses as a minimal risk for re-injury. He could re-tear it or tear something else just as easy as if he had a worse tear from the beginning.
    Don't forget that his bones are also old

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    West made $8,287,500 last season. I would assume that he would demand more than that amount.

    It is really hard to say how much he can expect pending the new CBA.

    If the CBA is relatively similar to the prior CBA, I could see West fetching something like 5 years / $50 million (at least)
    I looked at it as one year and one year older and his longer term prospects would be gone. Its not that he turned down 8 million this year its that it was a one year deal. 8 million for 4 years and he takes it.

    This is of course complete speculation though. You very well could be right that 5 years 50 million is what it would take but assuming there is a season the other bidders out there I don't think will be offering that and the number will go down. I like our chances for 4 years 35 million.
    I don't want to sound condescending, which means to talk down to you by the way

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by luis3ep View Post
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    5 yrs 50 million dollars? Hopefully the pacers don't make a big mistake and sign him for a big, lengthy contract like that. That kind of money needs to be spent on elite players, not a solid player with a torn acl who's past his prime.
    I agree with this statement. But I also want to point out it also applies, word for word, with Nene as well only for MORE money. Significantly more even.

    Assuming you consider ~30 past their prime. Which is arguable.
    I don't want to sound condescending, which means to talk down to you by the way

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    sorry to go off topic, but Since, does it work the same with with an achilles rupture?

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Gosh i hope the Pacers pass on this cat. If we sign this guy to a 5 year deal he is only gonna end up playing 3 seasons worth of games for us, and you'll see his averages drop every year he his here. Not to mention the weak front court defense we'll have in the starting unit.

    I don't care what his PE says, he is talking about rehab, not about a full blown 82 game season. We'll see how strong that ACL is after about 50 games. Isn't this an injury that requires almost 2 years of rehab to be back at full strength? How can this guy be ready to go in only 6-8 months.

    I hope i'll be wrong, but I just don't feel it will work out that way.
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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Then why do players usually wear a brace after they've injured their ACL? For comfort?
    Dude I tried to use that reasoning way back a few months ago when this injury happened. Nobody seems to realize that when a player wears a knee brace its because that knee is weaker than the other one and more prone to reinjury. In fact the longer a player relies on a knee brace the weaker the knee becomes over time. Everyone seems to think that a 30 year old's knees with 10 years in the NBA has just as strong knees as a 20 year old with none.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Peyton Stovall played for BSU and tore his ACL twice, the last game of his Jr year, and then retore it early into his Sr. year
    In this case there is about a 95% certainty that the reason it tore again was because it wasn't completely healed, not because it is weaker. It usually takes athletes at least 2 years to become 100% again, and only then do you see them returning to their normal strength.

    Other than that though you are right about it not coming back stronger, at least not significantly stronger. Often times when an athlete do tear a ligament when they come back they suffer from more injuries because their joint isn't as strong. Look at Edge the first season or two after his injury he missed a ton of games because of knee injuries. Even if it comes back stronger it takes a while.



    To me all this says about West is that his recovery time will be faster, but chances are it will be at least 1 full season until he is 100%. By then he could easily be on the downhill side of his career.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Call me uninformed if you want, but can someone tell me more about David West's game? From what I've read, he's a 20ppg guy with a good PG (DC seems to fit that bill), though he may or may not be a true post up guy. Anyone able to give me some deets?


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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by neosmndrew View Post
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    Call me uninformed if you want, but can someone tell me more about David West's game? From what I've read, he's a 20ppg guy with a good PG (DC seems to fit that bill), though he may or may not be a true post up guy. Anyone able to give me some deets?
    Excellent mid range shooter. One of the best at coming off the Pick N' Roll. Average rebounder. Average defender. Decent post player.

    His big advantage would be running the Pick N' Roll with DC or whoever is running the point. West is exceptional at just catching and shooting mid-range jumpers all game long.
    Stop quoting people I have on ignore!

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by neosmndrew View Post
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    Call me uninformed if you want, but can someone tell me more about David West's game? From what I've read, he's a 20ppg guy with a good PG (DC seems to fit that bill), though he may or may not be a true post up guy. Anyone able to give me some deets?
    Imagine Boozer in Utah, no defense and lucky enough to have a really good point guard with him.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Imagine Boozer in Utah, no defense and lucky enough to have a really good point guard with him.
    Boozer is really much better than West. Boozer is more athletic and rebounds better. West is less athletic, coming off knee surgery, but does have a mid-range jumper. West would be a good backup for Tyler.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    West is a good player. He played well before and without Chris Paul. He's probably the best option in this market. I don't want him but I wouldn't be upset if we got him.

    They should do a report on his other knee.

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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    It seems like alot of the re-injuries , or injuries to something else ...could occur due to the player over-compensating ..
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
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    Default Re: New Report on David West's Knee

    I've rarely heard of any player that has come back stronger after an ACL tear. If anything, even if the knee is structurally sound, West is bound to lose at least some explosiveness.

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