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Thread: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    It really is as simple as this. The NBA supplies 15 X 82 = 1230 games per regular season. The NFL suppiles 16 X 16 = 256 games per regular season. The sense of urgency to attend and or watch NFL games is magnified as a result of scarcity as much as anything else. Also, the NFL has the vast majority of its games during times and on days that are more accessible to more people on a consistent basis than any other sport. These factors make people more likely to spend time and money on that sport compared to the others, which makes it healthier overall.

    So, cut the season back to fewer games, cut the number of teams, and increase the quality and sense of consumer urgency regarding those games and players. The remaining league would be healthier and more robust as a result and everyone involved would be happy (remaining owners, remaining players, and at least those fans in the remaining markets, and casual fans everywhere).

    Do the Pacers exist in this new league? Maybe, maybe not.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    If teams shouldn't be allowed to make more money, then where is the proposal to set ticket prices league wide?

    Yeah right.

    EDIT: If that's your stance, then the NBA should control everything and then hand out the pieces to each team. Control TV deals, ticket prices, concessions, everything.

    Not gonna happen.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    It really is as simple as this. The NBA supplies 15 X 82 = 1230 games per regular season. The NFL suppiles 16 X 16 = 256 games per regular season. The sense of urgency to attend and or watch NFL games is magnified as a result of scarcity as much as anything else. Also, the NFL has the vast majority of its games during times and on days that are more accessible to more people on a consistent basis than any other sport. These factors make people more likely to spend time and money on that sport compared to the others, which makes it healthier overall.

    So, cut the season back to fewer games, cut the number of teams, and increase the quality and sense of consumer urgency regarding those games and players. The remaining league would be healthier and more robust as a result and everyone involved would be happy (remaining owners, remaining players, and at least those fans in the remaining markets, and casual fans everywhere).

    Do the Pacers exist in this new league? Maybe, maybe not.
    To add on to that thought, there are only 5 time slots for the entire season for the NFL.

    A Thursday night game.
    Two Sunday afternoon games.
    A Sunday night game.
    A Monday night game.

    That's it. The NBA has 5 time slots a night. Okay, maybe not five, but more than 3.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    Like the ideas by T Bird, problem is in this whole thing is nobody wants to take less AND they want more. Here's what I would focus on without all of the numbers and minute details.

    The New TV contract.

    Thats going to generate a huge pool of new income flow.

    Do this.

    Owners get concessions in the next 3/4 years to get even, so to speak. This number by most accounts is 52% to the players. Then you can actually raise the number to the 54.7% number the league is proposing by 2015-16.

    In this case the devils not really in the details as it usually is.

    The players get this amount of the pie, regardless of the vehicle you use to distribute it. Either via end of year escrow account as is currently done or by actual salaries, depending on the year end numbers.

    The owners could say look, we'll let you keep everything the way it is now, exactly, we just want 4 year max deals and these numbers that ascend when we ALL get paid.

    Execute it however you want, use those numbers and essentially let TNT, ESPN, and the Networks bail you out. Let them make up the gulf between the two.

    Players do it because well, they don't lose any checks and get a lower percentage of alot bigger pie, regardless, it isn't their money they are giving up after year 3 of the deal. Also, the union basically gets everything exactly the same as far as Bird rights, guaranteed contracts, all of it.

    Owners do it, because well your viable in year 1, by their own accounting. Plus you get a big payday in year 3/4 with the new TV contract.

    As for revenue Sharing use the TV pie for that too, but phase it in with the network contracts. Make the Big Markets split their local revenue, but make it the opposite of what T Bird said 75/25 in favor of the home market, 25 going to the TV kitty. Do this and time it with the new TV contract and they won't feel like they are getting as screwed.

    Spoonful of sugar I guess is what I'm saying with all of this
    Last edited by Speed; 07-11-2011 at 04:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If teams shouldn't be allowed to make more money, then where is the proposal to set ticket prices league wide?

    Yeah right.

    EDIT: If that's your stance, then the NBA should control everything and then hand out the pieces to each team. Control TV deals, ticket prices, concessions, everything.

    Not gonna happen.
    I didn't say teams shouldn't make more money. I said 5 or 6 teams shouldn't make more money than the rest of the teams combined. There's a difference, but then again, you know that and you're just trying to put words in my mouth.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    It really is as simple as this. The NBA supplies 15 X 82 = 1230 games per regular season. The NFL suppiles 16 X 16 = 256 games per regular season. The sense of urgency to attend and or watch NFL games is magnified as a result of scarcity as much as anything else. Also, the NFL has the vast majority of its games during times and on days that are more accessible to more people on a consistent basis than any other sport. These factors make people more likely to spend time and money on that sport compared to the others, which makes it healthier overall.

    So, cut the season back to fewer games, cut the number of teams, and increase the quality and sense of consumer urgency regarding those games and players. The remaining league would be healthier and more robust as a result and everyone involved would be happy (remaining owners, remaining players, and at least those fans in the remaining markets, and casual fans everywhere).

    Do the Pacers exist in this new league? Maybe, maybe not.
    This is why most people think the NBA (and MLB) play too many games. If there are games that even good teams expect to lose because of how many games you play then you play too many games.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I didn't say teams shouldn't make more money. I said 5 or 6 teams shouldn't make more money than the rest of the teams combined. There's a difference, but then again, you know that and you're just trying to put words in my mouth.
    but no way the owners of the big market teams go for such radical revenue sharing when they paid several hundred mil. more for their big-market teams then did the small market operators.

    that is why, i think, the [allegedly] money-losing owners are trying to recoup their [alleged] losses from the backs of the players, and not the better-performing owners via revenue sharing.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    but no way the owners of the big market teams go for such radical revenue sharing when they paid several hundred mil. more for their big-market teams then did the small market operators.

    that is why, i think, the [allegedly] money-losing owners are trying to recoup their [alleged] losses from the backs of the players, and not the better-performing owners via revenue sharing.
    I already admitted as much in my first post in this topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I think the local TV deal revenue sharing needs to happen but never will.
    I'm explaining my opinion of what should happen or needs to happen, not what WILL happen.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I didn't say teams shouldn't make more money. I said 5 or 6 teams shouldn't make more money than the rest of the teams combined. There's a difference, but then again, you know that and you're just trying to put words in my mouth.
    How does adding in the last few words change my point? It doesn't.

    If they shouldn't be allowed to make more money than the rest of the league combined, then the NBA needs to step in and set ticket prices and the rest, like I said.

    I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm trying to show you that you can't cap profits in order to make things "fair."

    Those franchises reap the rewards of being in a bigger market. They didn't create that market, they're only a part of it.

    Indy can't get FA because of our crappy weather and location. Should Stern try to find a way to change those things as well? No.

    You work with the tools you have, and the teams in LA, Boston, Chicago, New York etc get to work with more tools.

    The solution is to try and find a way to help teams, not try to hurt others.

    Thank you for telling me what my intentions were though. That really helped further civil discussion.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    Oh yeah I forgot nobody is allowed to have an opinion around you...silly me.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    You complained about me putting words in your mouth, and then you come back with that response? Classic.

    You're allowed to have an opinion, you're not going to tell me what my intentions are though. I think I know myself better than you know me. Or do you have a different opinion on that issue as well?

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    I've already said we obviously don't share the same opinion. Why can't you just leave it at that?

    I think that owning an NBA team is a partnership as much as it is a private enterprise and that every NBA owner owes as much to his partners as he does to himself and they should share their wealth with their partners. You seem to lean more towards the private enterprise way of thinking in that the team should keep all of what they earn. It's as simple as that really, and both are completely acceptable (or maybe equally stupid) ways to run things.

    I can agree on that at least.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    Because you're telling me I put words in your mouth, when I didn't. If you're going to take the conversation to a more personal level, then I'm going to respond. There's no reason for it, which is why I called it out rather than just ignoring it.

    I understand I can drop it, but at the same time so can you, and yet here we are.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    But you DID put words in my mouth. You said I said teams shouldn't make more money than other teams when I did not. There's a difference between saying that and what I actually did say. You can look up at your own post. I'm not gonna waste my time quoting it. This is pointless...

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    I omitted some words and the point remained the same. You can't cap profits. It takes away all incentive to make profits.

    It stays the exact same, even if the phrase "than the rest of the teams combined" is added or not.

    It's semantics, not a different point.

    Geesh, I'm sorry. I'll now start typing laugh out loud instead of lol, don't want to take any shortcuts.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If teams shouldn't be allowed to make more money than the other teams combined, then where is the proposal to set ticket prices league wide?

    Yeah right.

    EDIT: If that's your stance, then the NBA should control everything and then hand out the pieces to each team. Control TV deals, ticket prices, concessions, everything.

    Not gonna happen.
    There the post is fixed to include those important words. The point remains the same.
    Last edited by Since86; 07-13-2011 at 01:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    OK, I also should clarify. I think every team should MAKE whatever they can make, I just think they should share it with their partners. The way I said it made it seem like I wanted each team to make only a certain amount and for that amount to be equal for every team when that really isn't what I meant.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    So shouldn't the league control all costs and expenses then?

    I view the league like I view the United States. We all fall under the title of America, but each state is independently ran. If California goes bankrupt, then why should I pay to bail them out? That's not my problem. California doesn't provide me with anything. They are the competition.

    If the Indianapolis Pacers can't support themselves, then they need to fold. If Memphis can't support themselves, then they need to fold.

    Making the Lakers responsible for the Pacers profit makes the league weaker. What if the Lakers go bankrupt, like the Dodgers? Then what? Everything collapses, because it's a house built on sand.

    The Lakers, the Knicks, any team that is currently making boat loads of money can just as easily crumble. If they crumble, and the rest of the league is dependent on their money to stay alive, it will cause the entire league to crumble.

    Instead, you make a league that is independently financially stable, so that way if the Lakers go down the tubes, Indianapolis doesn't have to worry about losing their team.

    EDIT: I should throw this in there. If the numbers were reversed, and 22 teams made money, and only 8 teams lost money, then I'd think revenue sharing would be a more ideal solution.

    But you can't have 75% of a league dependent on the other 25%. That's bad business and the most basic, fundamental level.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    I think only ten teams tops would make it in your scenario and who besides ESPN programming executives wants to watch that?

    So let's say that every team is allowed to keep every dollar of revenue they make and the gap is very wide between the top and bottom just like today. For the Pacers to survive in THAT version of the NBA, a hard cap is a must. Then it won't matter of the Lakers and Knicks are making $160 million plus every year because they can only spend $60 million of it on player salary anyway. No exceptions, no ways to circumvent the cap. Whatever the number is, that's it. That's fair no matter what each team is making and I could live with that too.
    Last edited by travmil; 07-14-2011 at 07:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    I know a hard cap is a must, which is why I've been saying that they need a hard cap.

    When you have revenue sharing and teams are guaranteed profit, you end up like the MLB system and get teams like Pittsburgh and the Florida Marlins. They don't spend money, they draft/trade/sign for young players on cheap contracts to keep their payrolls down. They also play in front of empty stadiums. Yet they still make money.

    Now, the Marlins are pretty good at scouting, so they end up getting a good team here and there, but when it comes time to re-sign them, they trade them or let them walk. Look at D-Willis, Juan Pierre, etc.

    Now Pittsburgh is actually good this year, but they're doing it on the backs of cheap/young players like McCutchen. And I will bet you right now that he's not playing for them within two years, because they will let him walk or trade him away for prospects. That's their MO.

    Keep expenses down and simply collect that money from Boston/New York etc.

    It's a damn shame really.

    Here's a link showing attendance per year. Notice the same teams are always on bottom
    http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

    Here's a link of payrolls per year. Notice the same teams are always on bottom.
    http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm

    The Yankee's can afford to pay the luxury tax, pay out top dollar on players, and still revenue share because they have the resources to make money. I mean they have seats that cost $2,000 per game.

    You have to be able to restrict, not what they make, but how much they can spend.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Ideas to help create a new Collective Bargaining Agreement

    Looking on SI.com's front page, they have a story about MLB and the second half of the season. Pittsburgh hasn't had a winning season since 1992. 18 full seasons under .500% WOW!

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