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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
The barriers to entry are enormous. You have yet to account for that.
The barriers to entry are enormous. You have yet to account for that.
The Rules of Pacers Digest
Hello everyone,
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"
"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?"
In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*""Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?
"In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
Not only do the players have millions, their agent attorneys have money and connections to financiers around the world. If a small group of investers could found the ABA 40+ years ago, it can be done again.Originally posted by judicata View Post
BTW, ownership between the players does not have to be equal. The LeBron's of the league could buy into more shares and have greater voting rights.
But all of this comes down to whether you actually believe owning a franchise is lucrative. If it is, it's time to take on the opportunity. If you don't have the stones to do it or don't think you can do it, go ahead, try to negotiate. It's a losing bet thinking the players can hold out as long as the owners who probably save money not agreeing to the players' terms.Comment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
With this lockout in place for the foreseeable future, and the name Perot being brought up, it strikes me that Mark Cuban should forget about the NBA for a while and explore becoming President of the United States. He would have instant credibility with lots more people than just about anybody out there in recent years, and an immediate following even bigger than Perot had (before he willfully torpedoed his own campaign when he realized how perilously close he was to actually winning). Cuban would speak his mind no matter what, and would do everything in his power to follow through on what he says, without really caring what it would mean to any political future because he wouldn't be a career politician.Originally posted by judicata View Post
Back to basketball, I would think that the top players would have little problem rounding up financing and investors, as well as support from quite a few cities that will miss the stimulus of the NBA enough to kick in what it takes that the players can't find for themselves. There are no substitutes for the cream of the NBA crop when it comes to entertaining basketball at its very best. The money would be there for a league that would boast fewer teams, less games, and an overall superior level of talent, especially if that league were to become innovative and tweak the rules to where it became somewhat unique compared to NBA basketball (kind of like what happened with the original ABA).
Ultimately, that is the only bargaining chip that I believe the players realistically have. Could the NBA exist without its superstars? Not 30 franchises, IMO. It would need to be much smaller, and do away with the less talented players that pervade most current rosters.
Could either league ultimately survive such a scenario? Probably not, and within a few years, a merger would take place, kind of like what happened when the NBA merged the four ABA franchises into the league that combined both quality of teams as well as geographic diversity.Comment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
This is both revisionist history of the ABA and a complete disregard of the economics of natural monopolies. Since we are not operating out of the same foundations of assumptions, we're just going to have to disagree.Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
I think a lot of markets are lucrative that I would never attempt to enter. Many times they are lucrative because they operate in a monopoly.Last edited by judicata; 07-03-2011, 04:17 PM.Comment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
It's nice to see that at least you get it. It's a legitimate bargaining chip and might be the only one.Originally posted by Brad8888 View Post
On top of that, people need to understand that owners are focused on just a few things: Power, money and fame...probably in that order. Whether or not it's fair, they do not appreciate a player like LeBron influencing the balance of power in the league for the upcoming years. If they don't have the power, they start looking around to find why they are in this business relationship...starting with money...so there is a significant cost to the players for LeBron's "decision". That's just the way this all works. Very natural in fact.Comment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
Sure, I disagree. I believe that if the players formed their own league they would have a monopoly on the best and most famous talent in the world.Originally posted by judicata View Post
Also, I am not saying the ABA and its history is identical to this. In fact, I am certain that a new league formed in the information age, owned by the players themselves, would have far more influence than the ABA.Comment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
Your entire argument fails to account for one key fact- fans root for TEAMS and not players.Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
Even if the players somehow find enough capital to start a new league (impossible) and secured venues in which to play the games (not the current NBA arenas) the new teams lack the brand name and recognition to acquire a strong fanbase that would buy merchandise and generate viewership to create lucrative TV contract deals.
Kobe Bryant playing for the LA Beaches is not the same as him playing for the LAKERS.Comment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
That is one of the many high barriers to entry that make the notion of players creating their own league implausible. BNG is also assuming that players will act with perfect collusion. But once players start making overtures toward their own league, owners can easily counter by offering huge contracts to the main stars. Would Kobe, Dwight, Rose, Paul, James, and the like rather take an enormous risk on a long term enterprise, or collect a $50 million paycheck for one season. If you think the LA Beaches would have trouble competing with the Lakers even if it took their whole roster, consider how screwed the Beaches would be if the Lakers still had Kobe Bryant.Originally posted by hoosierguy View PostComment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
More importantly, where is Luke Walton going to play?Originally posted by judicata View Post
On-topic:
http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/20...e-investments/
Jul 1, 2011 at 1:45 pm
Unfortunately, the Pacers are one of the few teams that did lose value over the last five years...how much "mismanagement" is to blame is up for debate, in our case.Originally posted by Matthew Yglesias
Almost All NBA Team Owners Have Made Profitable Investments
Michael Wilbon’s curtain raiser on the NBA lockout repeats the sin of looking at the fiscal state of sports-related firms with reference to their annual cash flow:
The NBA, meanwhile, has teams losing real money. The league says 22 of 30 are operating in the negative; the players association would surely say it’s fewer than that. Either way, it’s reasonable — if not downright inescapable — to conclude there are NBA teams awash in red ink.
Normally when we talk about firm performance we make at least some reference to share prices or other measures of equity value. This is especially true when we’re talking about owners who are, by definition, the people who own the equity. Microsoft is considerably more profitable than Twitter, but someone who bought a large stake in Twitter four years ago is in much better shape than someone who spent an equivalent sum buying a stake in Microsoft. I would say that this is especially the case when it comes to something like these sports teams since the accounting profit or loss can be easily manipulated. For example, the Washington Wizards are owned by the same corporate entity that owns the Verizon Center in which they play. By shifting around the Wizards’ rent payments to the arena you can manipulate the team’s cost structure in arbitrary ways. Similarly, if I owned a profitable team and wanted to make the profits go away I might hire myself and my friends at high salaries. None of this speaks to the actual value of owning the firm. What’s more, a sports team isn’t like a dry cleaning business. Owning and managing a basketball team would be fun. If Ted Leonsis offered to gift me the Wizards with the proviso that the team loses $10,000 a year that would come out of my pocket, I’d leap at the opportunity. Indeed, the number of people who would like to own an NBA franchise far exceeds the number of NBA franchises available. Which is why WR Hambrecht’s comprehensive analysis (PDF) of the financial stake of pro sports teams in the United States confirms the obvious point that NBA teams have a large and positive equity value:
When you think about it, the remarkable thing about pro sports is that it’s possible to make any money at all owning teams. If someone put the New York Knicks up for auction under the condition that any profits the team makes will be annually stacked up in Madison Square Park (former home of the Garden!) and lit on fire, I would expect to see a large number of bids by consortia of wealthy NYC-area basketball fans. Under the circumstances, it’s interesting that in recent years the vast majority of NBA owners have actually been making profitable capital investments:
It’s particularly worth noting that several of the teams who’ve lost the most franchise value have been fairly catastrophically mismanaged (I’m looking at you Minnesota), which is hardly the NBAPA’s fault. All things considered, the vast majority of the owners have nothing to complain about in terms of their financial fortunes over the past few years (years that have been unkind to the finances of many Americans!) and among the minority who may have “lost money” in some real sense, most primarily have themselves to blame and all are in possession of valuable financial assets. Even the lowly Memphis Grizzlies are estimated to be worth $266 million.
[UPDATE] Here’s a very useful post from Deadspin about how profits can turn into losses via the magic of accounting. There’s not even anything particularly dishonest about this. There’s a reason that accounting is a profession. You can’t just look at a firm in terms of naive cash flow, but once you go beyond that deciding what is and isn’t profitable gets complicated. The question “how much would I have to pay to take this team off your hands,” by contrast, admits of a fairly unambiguous interpretation.Comment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
No one denies the fact owners have made millions in appreciation. The question is whether it continues to appreciate or is it a bubble like most other investments became in the last decade, like stocks and real estate.
BTW, the Bobcats were sold just last year for a 25M loss. The smart money may be sensing that the gravy train is about at its end.Comment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
I happen to agree that a new league perhaps with a novel twist on the game should work. I can't believe that nothing will ever be different and basketball as we know it will be forever the same. Just ask those who started facebook, google, twitter, groupon etc. if they agree.Originally posted by BlueNGold View PostComment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
Originally posted by Matthew Yglesias View Post
Can you SPEND money based on how someone at Forbes thinks your "asset" has "appreciated"?
Can you pay bills by saying "hey, I'm short of cash, I'll take care of you when I sell the franchise"?
For all that everyone whines that the losses due to depreciation and amortized initial costs don't count, how can people be also complaining that some paper valuation means these owners should be able to wave off any actual monetary losses - after all, players will be happy to take IOUs based on sale value in lieu of paychecks.BillS
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...Comment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
Have you paid any attention at all to how the NBA has been marketed for the last 20 years?Originally posted by hoosierguy View Post
Do you REALLY mean that it was existing Miami Heat fans who made the new Miami LeBron James Jersey the best selling jersey in the league last year?
The problem is that the league markets players, survives on players, and gives no damn whether an individual team crashes and burns as long as the heroes continue to sell jerseys where no teams exist.
A new player-owned league that was all about the dunks and players? Hell, it'd make millions, especially since it is obviously so lucrative to own a so-called "team" that players deserve a majority of the money as it is. Why wouldn't players get together and spend that little bit of money necessary to do the easy stuff so they could reap the big bucks without those greedy owners in the way?BillS
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...Comment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
Originally posted by BillS View Post
Can you SPEND money based on how someone at Forbes thinks your "asset" has "appreciated"?
Yes. Its called a secured loan. Its a win for the owner so long as the appreciation is greater than the interest on the loan.Comment
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Re: Exclusive: How (And Why) An NBA Team Makes A $7 Million Profit Look Like A $28 Million Loss
Forbes isn't loaning the money and considering the Bobcats sold at a loss, it might be a little difficult finding a bank to approve that loan.
In any event, this is not about past appreciation. This is about the future...and the smart money seems to think better cash flow is needed to make this work. IOW, all good things come to an end at some point and they might just think further appreciation is not in the cards...Comment
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