Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: A tough, defensive big man - Chuck Hayes thread

  1. #1
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,266

    Default A tough, defensive big man - Chuck Hayes thread

    Since it looks like nearly every free agent big man in the league is getting his own thread, I thought I'd put up one for one of my favorites as well

    The guy I have in mind is the starting center of a Western Conference team, but I think he'll be able to play PF just fine. He's routinely regarded as one of best low post defenders in the league, perhaps even second best behind Dwight Howard. At the same time, he's quick enough to go out and guard players on the perimeter. He's a leader, rising from the ranks as an undrafted rookie to being named team captain. And there's no question that he's a tough player, as Roy Hibbert could perhaps attest to.

    I'm talking about Chuck Hayes, the undersized big man with an oversized heart. A six year veteran at 27 years of age, he's probably the closest thing to a Dale Davis in the league right now. We keep talking about the need for toughness and defense in the interior, well Chuck is one of the best candidates for providing both. As an unrestricted free agent who made $2.3m last year, he's also a guy who's not likely to break the bank.

    His name has come up a few times on this forum, and the comments are generally along the lines of, yeah he'd be a great backup to replace Foster. With all due respect to Foster, I think Hayes could fill a bigger role than that. In fact, I'm starting to think that Hayes could be a great fit for our starting PF spot alongside Hibbert.

    Consider: what are Hibbert's biggest weaknesses? He's slow, not that strong, not that tough, and a mediocre rebounder. Hayes' strengths pretty much cancel out those weaknesses. On the flipside, Hayes' weak points are his lack of height/shotblocking and lack of scoring, both of which Hibbert can provide.

    Hayes has the reputation of being poor on offense, but even his scoring has improved. Hayes' free throws used to be the stuff of legends (search Youtube for Chuck Hayes free throws) but his form has improved and he shot a career high 66% from the line last season. In fact he averaged 7.9 pts 8.1 reb 2.7 ast in 28 min, all career highs, with the season highlight being a triple-double (13 pts 14 reb 11 ast) in a victory over the Warriors.

    And yeah, he's a good passer for a big man. About as good as McBob is, I think. The stats last year showed that our starting lineup benefited a lot from the presence of a low usage, high IQ player in McBob. Now imagine McBob being replaced by a tougher, better defending version.

    And lastly, Hayes can play some backup C for us. At 6'6'' he's undersized, but on the other hand he's handled opposing centers pretty well while starting for two seasons at the pivot for the Rockets. This positional versatility could be important for us.

    The Rockets have said they want to keep Hayes, but their problem is that they have too many other players at PF, and they want a taller guy to start at C. It seems to me that it should be fairly easy to outbid the Rockets for Hayes.

    In summary, Hayes is a guy whose age and skills fits strongly into one of our weakest areas. Another plus is that we probably won't have to overpay too much to get him. And lastly, should we be fortunate enough to get a better PF in the future (e.g., Tyler turns into a star), Hayes can easily move down to a backup position.

    All aboard the Chuckwagon?
    Last edited by wintermute; 06-30-2011 at 01:04 AM. Reason: clarified title

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to wintermute For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,266

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.c...f-chuck-hayes/

    The Curious Case of Chuck Hayes
    By JOHN KROLIK
    March 24, 2011

    Of all the triple-doubles that have been recorded this season, Houston forward Chuck Hayes’s has to be considered one of the most unlikely. Hayes recorded 14 rebounds and a stunning 11 assists against the notoriously defense-adverse Golden State Warriors, and he sealed the triple-double with a jumper in the fourth quarter.

    The triple-double was more of an amusing outlier than a true signature performance for Hayes; after all, the Warriors do allow the highest ratio of assisted baskets in the league, and they have the worst rebounding rate in the league, so racking up rebounds and assists against the Warriors is not a particularly difficult challenge. But the triple-double does draw attention to the fact that Hayes has quietly turned himself into a respectable offensive player.

    Chuck Hayes has long been a subject of fascination for both scouts and the statistically inclined. When Hayes first began playing for the Rockets during the 2005-6 season, the 6-foot-6 center was regarded as an oddity whose amazing prowess for grabbing rebounds allowed him to be a rotation player.

    Over time, people began to realize that Hayes was more than just a rebounder and energy player — he was one of the best defenders in the league. Despite his size, opposing players found it almost impossible to get post position against Hayes, and he bottled up much larger centers and power forwards on a nightly basis.

    Coming into this season, Hayes was viewed as the kind of player than only a nuanced fan of the game could love. He was the shortest center in the league, wasn’t the kind of shot-blocker that Joel Anthony or Ben Wallace is, and didn’t even have Leon Powe’s ability to score around the basket.

    Hayes was a player for fans who appreciated the fight for low-post position more than a shot swatted into the third row, a good off-ball screen more than a swished fade-away jump shot, and a tough rebound in traffic more than an ankle-breaking crossover. While seeming to be nothing more than a player half a foot shorter than the players he was supposed to be guarding and the owner of one of the worst free-throw strokes in N.B.A. history, Hayes was out there doing the little things to help his team win.

    Hayes still does the little things, but this season he has added a new wrinkle to his game: he’s suddenly producing offense like a legitimate N.B.A. center, and a fairly good one at that. Hayes is scoring 7.6 points per game this season, which represents both a career high for him and a 3.2 point boost from his 2009-10 scoring average in only five more minutes per game. He’s averaging 2.5 assists per game, which is the fourth-highest mark for any center in the league and a career high.

    And while Hayes’s scoring volume has gone up, his efficiency hasn’t suffered at all. His true shooting percentage is the highest it has been since the 2006-7 season, and his turnover rate is as low as it has been since his rookie year. Hayes has really come on in the new year: he averaged 9.5 points on 50 percent shooting in January, 9.3 points on 59.3 percent shooting in February, and has averaged 8.4 points on 60.9 percent shooting in March. Believe it or not, Hayes is now a solid offensive center.

    Every part of Hayes’s offensive game has improved. He’s much more confident as a scorer in the low post, and has become an excellent passer from the low block. He’s no longer afraid of the free throw line — after converting 7 of the 18 free throws he took over the course of the entire 08-09 season, Hayes has already made 77 of the 116 free throws he has taken this season. (Perhaps there is hope for Andris Biedrins yet.)

    While Hayes still does most of his scoring off of offensive rebounds and off-ball cuts, he is now a player who can be trusted with the ball in his hands anywhere in the general area of the hoop.

    Teams are generally willing to be patient with talented, physically gifted players, especially ones who can score. Even if they don’t seem to grasp defensive rotations, don’t share the ball particularly well, take ill-advised shots, and don’t play with much effort, teams are generally willing to take risks on them, because it’s easy to picture a talented scorer “getting it” one day and becoming one of the best player in the league.

    It’s much harder to picture an undersized, graceless forward who earns minutes because of his hustle and basketball IQ developing into a legitimate offensive threat, but Hayes has proved that it can happen. For years, Hayes has rewarded everybody willing to pay close attention to the things he does on the floor. This season, the things he does have become impossible to ignore.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to wintermute For This Useful Post:


  5. #3

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    How many big men threads are there? Lol.

    I really like Chuck Hayes though. I think he would be an excellent addition to the Pacers. He isn't the long term answer as the Pacers need some scoring there but I would love to add Chuck to the team. He would fit in nice with the rest of the team.

  6. #4
    "Born Ready" TheRifleman51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    It's always been about Indy.
    Age
    25
    Posts
    75

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    To be honest I totally forgot that he was a free agent i'd be done for signing him but i'd refuse to pay arms and legs and I think that Landry will be a better fit on the offensive end but what Chuck brings on defense is undeniable sign me up

  7. #5
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    41
    Posts
    24,632

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    How many Block shots does he average?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  8. #6
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    7,443

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    I tried to make an overall back up big man thread, but I guess it didn't take.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to graphic-er For This Useful Post:


  10. #7
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,266

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How many Block shots does he average?
    Hayes isn't a shotblocker. Averaged 0.7 bpg. In comparison, Hibbert averaged 1.8 bpg, McBob 0.8 bpg, and Hans 0.2 bpg.

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I tried to make an overall back up big man thread, but I guess it didn't take.
    That was a good effort, and I posted on that thread too. The point of this thread though, is that I think Hayes could start at PF for us.

  11. #8
    Member owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,236

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    Sign me up for the ChuckWagon. I love his defense and rebounding and dual purpose.
    Can be had for a fair price and will fit in well in the locker room
    Last edited by owl; 06-29-2011 at 10:01 PM.
    {o,o}
    |)__)
    -"-"-

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to owl For This Useful Post:


  13. #9
    Custom User Titleist
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Pacer Purgatory Praying for Paul
    Posts
    3,559
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    Yummy, crunchy morsels of beef flavored nuggets that, when water is added, end up covered in a delicious beef flavored gravy that your dog is guaranteed to love? Sign me up!

  14. #10
    the goat Haywoode Workman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Bloomington
    Posts
    430

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    Did you copy/paste the title of this thread from the title of your eharmony profile?

  15. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Haywoode Workman For This Useful Post:


  16. #11
    Batman's New Side Kick Psyren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    2,597

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    I like Chuck Hayes, but I'll say this:

    We need a solution, not more stop gap players. If all we want is a stop gap, we're fine just the way we are.

    That's not a knock on Hayes at all, he's one of my favorite players. But we need more than just a stop gap player, which is all Hayes would be.
    Stop quoting people I have on ignore!

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Psyren For This Useful Post:


  18. #12

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I like Chuck Hayes, but I'll say this:

    We need a solution, not more stop gap players. If all we want is a stop gap, we're fine just the way we are.

    That's not a knock on Hayes at all, he's one of my favorite players. But we need more than just a stop gap player, which is all Hayes would be.
    I get what you are saying about stop gap players. My only question would be is that a fair assessment of Hayes. I think you are a little to critical of him and here is why: He would be another needed piece just like Hill was. He supplies what this team really needs - energy, size, defensive presence in the paint. Is he a franchise changer = no! But he is the type of player who could really help this team out a lot.
    Going this route would also leave the Pacers a ton of money to spend on other parts and resign our own core and keep them together for the long haul.
    Just an observation. If we can find another player who is better at D than Hayes, and is affordable - sign me up!!!!

  19. #13

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I like Chuck Hayes, but I'll say this:

    We need a solution, not more stop gap players. If all we want is a stop gap, we're fine just the way we are.

    That's not a knock on Hayes at all, he's one of my favorite players. But we need more than just a stop gap player, which is all Hayes would be.
    Stop gap? I don't believe he's a stop gap at all. He's better than many of other team's starting centers. And good centers nowadays are pretty hard to find. Plus he can play PF too. He'll be the best replacement to Jeff Foster once he retires or decides to move to other teams.

  20. #14
    Member A.B.Hollywood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Champaign, IL
    Posts
    314

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    I'll be honest I had now idea that he had as many assists as he did. 2.7 per game for a player like this is damn impressive IMO.

    having said that, I think there are better options but if all else falls through he's at least intriguing.

    Oh but the Dale Davis stuff is a bit hysterical. 6-6 238 and 6-11 252 with an even MORE chiseled frame do not equate buddy.

    Sorry.
    I don't want to sound condescending, which means to talk down to you by the way

  21. #15
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,266

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man

    Quote Originally Posted by Haywoode Workman View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Did you copy/paste the title of this thread from the title of your eharmony profile?


    Ok, I'll change the title. It seemed a good idea at the time.

  22. #16
    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nirvana
    Posts
    6,944

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man - Chuck Hayes thread

    I'm 100% down with this. Either starts or works from the bench pending any other acquisitions. Definitely would be effective in the backup 5 slot. Get him and keep Foster at a moderate price. Then use extra cash to find a scoring specialist.
    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

    -Emiliano Zapata

  23. #17
    Member Kamiyohk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    HongKong
    Posts
    226

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man - Chuck Hayes thread

    SERIOUS? Just seems like posey play pf, i hate it.....

  24. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In a Gym
    Age
    21
    Posts
    16,859
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man - Chuck Hayes thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamiyohk View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    SERIOUS? Just seems like posey play pf, i hate it.....
    I take it you have never seen him play being from Hong Kong? The guy is a rare breed is decent center and is only 6'6.

  25. #19
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,266

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man - Chuck Hayes thread

    So, no more objections? I mean of the serious sort, not one-line critiques.

    I think Hayes gets overlooked because he's undersized, not particularly athletic, and not flashy at all. But there's no arguing that he regularly gets the job done against players half a foot taller than him. And his skills are really what the team needs right now.

    Are there better FA candidates? I think my top target remains Tyson Chandler, but injury history and $$$ are valid concerns. Next up is Nene. His defense and rebounding are not as consistent as I would like, but there's no doubting that he's a talented player who could help us. Again, $$$ is a concern. After these 2, Hayes is next and probably the most realistic target. I'd rather get Hayes than paying big money for DWest for example.

    It could be that there are reasonable trade targets too. But it's hard to predict who's going to be available, and what it would take to get the other team to make a trade. As far as FAs are concerned, Chuck Hayes is high up on my list.

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to wintermute For This Useful Post:


  27. #20
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man - Chuck Hayes thread

    I'd welcome Hayes as our backup center.

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to Hicks For This Useful Post:


  29. #21
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,826

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man - Chuck Hayes thread

    I wonder what Adrian Caldwell is up to?
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  30. #22
    Member A.B.Hollywood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Champaign, IL
    Posts
    314

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man - Chuck Hayes thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    . I'd rather get Hayes than paying big money for DWest for example.
    .
    I really get sick of people saying that David West will get paid "Big Money". Chuck Hayes is likely to get 6 or so million per season from the Rockets. West is maybe 8 million.

    yeah.

    There are plenty of other reasons to prefer Chuck and that is fine but this shoudl not be the primary one. People regularly spew stuff like he is looking for Nene money. And he's not. If he is, well... he won't be signed anytime soon. (lockout withstanding)
    I don't want to sound condescending, which means to talk down to you by the way

  31. #23
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,266

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man - Chuck Hayes thread

    Quote Originally Posted by A.B.Hollywood View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I really get sick of people saying that David West will get paid "Big Money". Chuck Hayes is likely to get 6 or so million per season from the Rockets. West is maybe 8 million.
    How do you know for sure?

    Certainly, I expect West to get better offers than Hayes does.

    On the other hand, will the Rockets really give a $6m offer to Hayes? The problem with the Rockets is that they don't have a big center to pair with Hayes (unless you count Thabeet), while they have plenty of PFs. So what they really need is a big center - rumor is that they might clear the decks to make a run at someone like Gasol or Nene. Even if they don't, it's not clear that they plan to make Hayes a large offer. I think they'll offer something more like 3 years $10m, which we should easily outbid.

    But I do agree with your last point that I prefer Hayes for reasons other than likely salary.

  32. #24

    Default Re: A tough, defensive big man - Chuck Hayes thread

    Hayes could serve 2 roles: Backup C and PF!
    The only issue I have with him is that he does not block shots. I wonder if larger players would give him trouble on both ends? He is a good, versitle vet though. I would like to get him.

Similar Threads

  1. A question for the OB haters
    By MLB007 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 140
    Last Post: 01-09-2011, 09:48 PM
  2. Do-it-all forward Granger has tough to-do list for Pacers
    By 90'sNBARocked in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-22-2010, 02:19 PM
  3. NBA Coach Power Rankings: O'Brien 23rd
    By Hibbert in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 10-12-2010, 06:23 PM
  4. Star>Pacers are slow to master coach's defensive scheme
    By Will Galen in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 02-06-2008, 12:31 PM
  5. OT - Insider NFL Mock Draft
    By kerosene in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-30-2004, 11:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •