Will anyone post this ESPN Insider article?
Will anyone post this ESPN Insider article?
I never trust BR but this guy hates the move lol
I agree that the Spurs won this trade from there point of view but we did good also.
I was shocked that the Spurs wanted Leonard instead of Singleton. I really wanted Chris and it is TBA if i like this trade i will have to wait and see how we use George Hill and if he can blossom here.
I think there can be 2 winners. I think he will say he likes it for the SAS because they get value for a player that they would of had to overpay to keep.
I also worry that Hill is just a system guy and if you remove him from that system he will struggle i guess we will see.
It's also a lot safer as a writer to say the the Spurs got the best of this trade just based on both teams recent history.
I normally don't rant, but I gave that idiot author a good piece of my mind on there. Feel much better now. Here's the transcript.
"Continually failing"? Do you people at Bleacher Report even bother to do a fact check anymore?
Larry Bird has steadily brought this franchise out of the abyss in the past few years and has brought in guys to add to the core in each of the past few drafts. After Donnie Walsh put Indiana in Franchise Cap Hell with the god-awful Stephen Jackson and Al Harrington trade a few years ago, Bird was finally able to drag the Pacers out of it, and even turn Troy "The Matador" Murphy's expiring contract into Darren Collison. Not only that, but in the 3 prior drafts he has added guys who are all now starters by trading the Ghost of Jermaine O'Neal for Roy Hibbert, drafting Tyler Hansbrough, and picking up Paul George last year.
Bird did exactly what the Pacers needed. He brought in a Combo Guard who can adjust to certain situations in that he can help guard against the bigger PG's like Derrick Rose and Deren Williams who both ate Darren Collison alive last season. And he can also help stabilize a bench that was in desperate need (especially in the playoffs) of a guy who could score and score by creating his own shot.
And exactly where the **** was Leonard supposed to play? Yeah, great, he's a 6'7 Forward who can play some good defense. That's all fine and dandy, except for the fact that the Pacers already have a 6'9 Danny Granger and a 6'10 Paul George (who is still friggin growing) who already do that and do it pretty damn well on most nights. Not to mention, they can actually put the ball in the hole.
So Bird trades a 1st and 2nd round pick in one of the weakest drafts ever, as well as the rights to some Euro guy who will never come over to the states, for a young veteran who is solid and will help the team immediately?
Sounds like a pretty ****ing fantastic deal to me.
Oh, and Bird's about to re-hire Frank Vogel, as well as Brian Shaw (You know,the guy Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant wanted to be Head Coach of the Lakers? I guess they're a pretty good team) as an Assistant Coach. AND the Pacers have about $25 million in cap relief to go get a guy in Free Agency, or make trades with the Expiring Contract in James Posey, a talented but stupid Lance Stephenson, or even Danny Granger, to go out and get a proper PF to put next to Hibbert so Hansbrough can go be the league's most feared 6th Man.
......Are you sure you didn't mean for this to be about David Kahn and his ineptitude up in Minnesota?
Last edited by Day-V; 06-24-2011 at 04:20 AM.
They usually post all the insider stuff on this Chinese basketball site (not that I can read Chinese, it's just the first link that comes up on Google when I search the article title).
Hollinger seems to really like it for both teams.
Draft analysis: Spurs sharp in dealing
By John Hollinger
You want to know why the Spurs win 50 or more games every year and always have their cap situation under control, while the rest of the league scrambles and flails around them? Check out tonight's draft for a good example.
In a stellar trade that showed how they're always a step ahead of everyone else, the Spurs sent guard George Hill to Indiana for the rights to the 15th pick (Kawhi Leonard), the rights to the 42nd pick (Davis Bertans), and the rights to European Erazem Lorbek.
On paper, trading an established rotation player for the 15th pick in a weak draft seems like a reckless gamble, but there's a key difference between George Hill and Kawhi Leonard: their paychecks.
Hill will be a restricted free agent after the coming season, and the Spurs looked at their books and made a decision that they couldn't pay two point guards (Hill and the equally widely shopped Tony Parker) -- especially while they were also paying Manu Ginobili, Tim Duncan and Richard Jefferson and looking at a more restrictive post-lockout salary cap environment.
Leonard, meanwhile, will be on a rookie contract for the next four years, providing the Spurs with a very reasonably paid but (likely) productive player to offset the millions they're paying declining assets like Duncan.
So Hill goes now, before the Spurs have any drama over whether to extend him or risk losing him in restricted free agency next summer. San Antonio keeps its cap situation somewhat under control, and can plug James Anderson, Gary Neal, rookie Cory Joseph and whatever veteran backup point guard they sign into Hill's former minutes without losing much in the backcourt.
Meanwhile, Leonard fills a more glaring need -- a combo forward who can help them match up when opponents go small. This has been an Achilles heel of the Spurs for years, and presuming Leonard can play, he solves the problem. While he's not the classic San Antonio corner-3 shooting small forward of yore, the Spurs needed a young energizer like this.
So yes, it's a great deal for San Antonio, and it illustrates how the Spurs have stayed on top of the standings for more than a decade by staying two steps ahead of the competition. Just to emphasize that point, the Spurs also got a second-round pick in the deal and used it to nab Latvian sharpshooter Davis Bertans, who is totally unready now but likely will prove a steal when he decides to come over in a few years.
But, I should point out, Indiana didn't fare badly either. The Pacers converted a trade exception from the Troy Murphy deal into a big combo guard who will help fill the rotation -- he'll back up Darren Collison at the point and play a lot of 2, where Mike Dunleavy is a free agent and Brandon Rush is trade bait.
Meanwhile, his arrival doesn't mess up Indiana's financial plans -- they can afford to pay Hill and he'll likely want to stay since he's from Indianapolis. And since he only counts $2 million this year against their current hoard of cap space, his arrival won't cost the Pacers anything in free agency.
It's a good example of two teams using the system to their advantage, but for me it's especially illustrative of how San Antonio has played the cap-management game so much better than most of its rivals over the past decade.
Now let's look at the rest of Thursday's trades:
Blazers and Nugget swap point guards; Mavs get Rudy
The full damages on this deal are extensive, but it basically boils down to the Blazers swapping Andre Miller to Denver for Raymond Felton. The nitty-gritty: Portland sends Miller to Denver and Rudy Fernandez and the rights to Finnish guard Petteri Koponen to Dallas; Dallas sends the No. 26 pick (Jordan Hamilton) to Denver and the No. 57 pick to Portland; Denver sends Felton to Portland.
The Felton-Miller trade is a rarity: It's almost entirely about basketball. The two have virtually identically contracts that both expire after this season. Portland gets eight years younger at the point guard spot, although Felton looked very heavy by the end of last season and really needs to get that potbelly under control if he's going to continue playing at his current level.
The two were roughly equal as players a year ago, but each fits better in the other team's system -- Miller's lack of shooting was a real problem in Portland but shouldn't be an issue on an up-tempo Denver team that has a lot of bombers, while Felton bristled as a backup in Denver but will be a full-time starter with the Blazers.
The Blazers lose Fernandez in the swap, which leaves a dent, but with Greg Odenpotentially returning at the center spot and LaMarcus Aldridge on the other block, Portland needs a point guard who can make a jump shot. Felton isn't the best in this category, but compared to Miller, he looks like Steve Kerr. He's a better defender than Miller, too.
Portland also drafted Nolan Smith in the first round, who presumably will be the backup point guard and can pair with Felton in the backcourt -- he and Elliot Williams, who missed last year with knee surgery, should fill the void left by Rudy's departure.
For Denver, Miller is probably going to come off the bench behind Ty Lawson, although I strongly suspect they may try to flip Miller for assets at the trade deadline. He was beloved in Denver in his last stint and will thrive in their up-tempo style, and the Nuggets get a considerable asset in the No. 26 pick, Jordan Hamilton, as well. Hamilton can really stroke it, and will likely fill free agent J.R. Smith's role as a source of 3-pointers, questionable shot selection and bad body language off the bench.
For the world champion Mavs (yes, I'm still getting used to this too), this trade basically boils down to getting a low-salaried player to fill some likely free-agent vacancies. The Mavs could have done the same with pick No. 26, but Fernandez is a sure bet to contribute right away in a known role and I suspect he'll be better in Dallas's more open, faster-paced system than he was in Portland's grinding approach. Given that Caron Butler, J.J. Barea andDeShawn Stevenson all are free agents, it was a good proactive step for Dallas. Koponen is likely a throwaway but could help Dallas when they need to tear this all down in two years or so.
Minnesota's cascading trade
The Timberwolves started the night with the 20th pick in the draft and Jonny Flynn. At the end of the draft they had Brad Miller, a likely late first-rounder from Memphis in 2013, two future second-rounders, the 43rd pick (Malcolm Lee), and a whole mess of cash that was included in four separate transactions involving Chicago, Miami, New Jersey and Houston. The Wolves traded down in slow motion -- from 20th to 23rd to 28th to 31st to selling the pick entirely -- and got paid at each step.
Houston got No. 20 from Minnesota (Lithuanian big man Donatas Motiejunas) along with Flynn in return for Brad Miller, picks No. 23 and No. 38 and the future first-rounder from Memphis. (That pick, incidentally, is more protected than Fort Knox -- it will never be in the top 14. It's top-14 protected in 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016; at that point it downgrades to a second-rounder.)
Cash-wise the deal is nearly neutral -- Flynn makes less, but insurance will likely pick up a chunk of Miller's contract (Miller had microfracture surgery in the offseason). The interesting part is that the Rockets included a future first-rounder in the deal, which indicates some value was placed on Flynn despite his horrid play last season.
Obviously, the value for Houston depends on getting something out of Flynn (either in trade or on the court) and how Motiejunas develops. But look at it this way -- it would have cost them $3 million to salary dump Miller, which is also the going rate for a late first-rounder. They basically gave Minnesota a late first-rounder to dump Miller instead, and now have a wild card with Flynn. Maybe he develops and maybe he stays terrible. But Houston doesn't really lose anything by giving it a whirl.
For a 22-year-old who had a fairly solid rookie season at age 20? I'd say that's a pretty fair gamble to take, and another cagey move by the Rockets as they build for the post-Yao era.
But back to the Wolves. Having traded down to No. 23, they traded down again by sending the pick to Chicago, who made a phenomenal Eurostash pick with Montenegrin forwardNikola Mirotic. In return, Minnesota got picks 28 and 43, and cash.
Then they deal No. 28 to Miami, who made a very strong pick with unheralded Cleveland State guard Norris Cole, and Minnesota in return got pick No. 31, a future second-rounder, and cash. The irony here is that the No. 28 pick was originally Miami's -- the Heat sent it to Toronto in the Chris Bosh trade, and via Toronto, Chicago, and Minnesota, it boomeranged back.
The Wolves then sent No. 31 to New Jersey, who drafted forward Bojan Bogdanovic and gave Minnesota even more cash.
And after trading for the No. 38 pick, they sold it back to Houston so the Rockets could takeChandler Parsons from Florida. Yes, more cash -- $1.5 million to be exact. One has to wonder if the Wolves were raising a slush fund to pay off soon-to-be-departed head coach Kurt Rambis.
Minnesota also got Houston's 2012 second-rounder if it lands in spots 31 to 40, which is unlikely. Finally, at No. 43, the Wolves finally used a pick, taking UCLA wing Malcolm Lee.
All of this intrigue likely filled the Wolves' coffers much more than simply selling the pick outright at the start, so bravo to Minnesota for this piece of strategy. But I'm guessing Wolves fans would have preferred a veteran or even a stash pick like Mirotic to bolstering owner Glen Taylor's bank account.
Boston and New Jersey swap spots
In a fairly straightforward switcheroo, the Celtics swapped No. 25 to New Jersey for No. 27, and got a 2014 second-rounder from the Nets for their trouble.
New Jersey landed guard Marshon Brooks, while the Celtics got Purdue's defensive aceJaJuan Johnson, a player who may very well be this year's Taj Gibson.
Second-rounders change hands
• Orlando traded two future second-rounders to Cleveland for No. 32 pick Justin Harper, who fits the Magic system like a glove with his long-range shooting and general indifference to rebounding and contact. On another team that's a liability; as long as Dwight Howard is around it won't matter much in Orlando.
• New York purchased the 45th pick from New Orleans and Golden State bought the 39th pick from Charlotte. Reportedly, the Knicks paid $750K for the 45th pick, and the Warriors paid $2 million for the 39th.
• The name of the night was Chukwudiebere Maduabum, who Denver picked after trading a future second-rounder to the Lakers for the 56th selection.
• Minnesota obtained the 57th pick from Portland after the Blazers got it from the Mavs, using it to draft an obscure forward named Tanguy Ngombo, who plays in Qatar. The interesting part? The whispers that Ngombo is as much as 26 years old ... which, if true, would make him ineligible for this draft.
I agree with John the Spurs made a great move because of $$$. He also said the Pacers did good in the trade and i agree. I figured that's what the article was gonna be about. The SAS organization is truly a well run organization and are very good basketball minds who made a good trade along with us tonight.
but now thinking about the deal i like it more because if we want to get a free agent next year we still can. Because George's cap hold isnt very much and will allow us to go after EJ or another big time guy and also retain George Hill. The quote below is really significant to our future cap plans in free agency next year.
they can afford to pay Hill and he'll likely want to stay since he's from Indianapolis. And since he only counts $2 million this year against their current hoard of cap space, his arrival won't cost the Pacers anything in free agency.
Last edited by pacer4ever; 06-24-2011 at 04:40 AM.
Yeah, as much as I love Hill coming to Indy, it was an amazing trade for the Spurs, getting Leonard in a position of need and Bertans who they can stash in Europe for a few years. It feels like Lorbek might be more willing to come to the Spurs because of their experience with Euros but I don't know if there's any truth to that. Regardless I hope it comes out well for us in the end. I just hope we can get Hill to stay longterm without making too big of a dent in our cap room.
We help the Spurs get better, but not ourselves. Way to go Bird. Hill does not make this team better.
Hate this deal more and more.
Lance + Starting SG = Awesome
Now really free Lance!
We won't know for sure for a few years. George Hill is a sure thing. A 15th pick is anything but a sure thing, no matter if the Spurs pickd him or not
It's also a sure thing that Spurs wouldn't be able to extend him. Or if not him, someone else.
So whatever happens, Hollinger is right, long term, great deal for Spurs. And they also got Bertans -- who was projected in the 1st round by most and has serious potential 3+ years from now.
They really aren't losing anything, just a year of Hill who's very expendable with Gary Neal/James Anderson on the roster (if there even is next year).
For this to be a bad deal for Spurs, Leonard would have to be a bust of Joe Alexander proportions where he's out of the league in 2 years (and Bertans never make it).
As for us, it's not a sure thing. Safe choice for now, but our prime time isn't for some 3-5 years anyway, and if by that time Leonard reaches his full potential which seems to be considerable... It will be remembered as a terrible deal.
Good trade for the Spurs, doesn't make it a bad trade for us.
It's a good trade for the Spurs because of financial and roster reasons, but not for basketball reasons - Hill was an important part of their rotation after all, and they swapped him for 3 maybes. That's basically a rebuilding move for them.
For the Pacers, we already have a lot of good not great players, so consolidating our assets to get a known commodity that fills a need makes a lot of sense. I think Hill still has a lot of upside while being capable of contributing off the bat.
I don't get the regret about trading Leonard away. He was never our pick apparently and if we hadn't traded the #15 we might very well have gone for someone else. It's the Bayless trade all over again.
There is a reason Leonard dropped.
It was a good move financially for the Spurs, but you also have to mention why they needed to consider finances: the absolutely awful and untradeable contract of Richard Jefferson.
I think it's the rare trade that will be a good move for both teams, frankly. They really liked Kawhi Leonard, and at our draft spot the top players left were SFs who didn't fill a need for us.
Hill is probably good for an extra win or two. He isn't going to make us better, especially in the long run. He's a 6'2" shooting guard. He does play defense, so I like that. I do like Hill, but I'm just saying we should have gotten more. I'd have rather taken Brooks/Singleton at 15, and with the second, taken a point guard that can play defense in Darius Morris (just taken 1 spot ahead of us, so was very reachable with a trade), Charles Jenkins, Malcom Lee, or even taken a flier on Josh Selby. Sure some of those guys went before our pick, but could have easily been attainable for our second pick a little bit of cash.
I would much rather have Singleton and Darius Morris than Hill.
I'm not hating on Hill, I think he's a fine player, but this deal just stunk to me.
Lance + Starting SG = Awesome
Now really free Lance!
Geez...cant please everybody I guess. Good thing Hill is a hometown boy. Otherwise, given the relationship he had with Pops and the S.A. fans I would be worried he is going to go back down there after this season.
Just like there is reason Leonard fell in this draft, there are also reasons that Pops and the S.A. fans love George Hill.
Also a lot of people seem to be talking as if we are done dealing.
When all of your wishes are granted many of your dreams will be destroyed -MM
I'm sure I'll appreciate the deal later on, but right now, it just looks bad to me, that we got back so little.
Lance + Starting SG = Awesome
Now really free Lance!
There is a reason Granger dropped. There is a reason why Leonard was projected as a top 5-8 prospect most of the time. There is a reason why Fredette was the most hyped prospect in this draft. There is a reason for most things. There is a reason why Spurs wanted Leonard instead of say Donatas Motiejunas and more 2nd round picks.
Anyone who says they know Leonard will fail is delirious. Spurs don't know it. How can you?
Leonard dropped for a reason. He struggles to guard quick 3s. He is not long enough to guard lanky 4s. And not wide enough to contend with the Blairs on the boards.
I am slightly disappointed that we didn't get Bertrans. I really like his shooting.
Oh I bet every GM knows why he dropped. He is not a scorer. Which we need. This guy will be a role player...much like Hill. But his role will not be scoring...which we need.
He is the 3rd worst scorer at his position in this draft alone. He is a tweener. A better Faried...which is why he dropped. He never took over in workouts. He is average athletically in this class alone. Which most players taken 1-10 were...but he can't score. He could be an Amare/Bosh stopper. But he does not have the touch that Marion has. Nor the lateral quickness.
He is potential. Something that we have in players last year. We need proven players that fit a need. Hill would have went top 12 in this draft if he played at IU/Butler/Ohio State.
So please quick making this kid out to be a proven commodity. He is risk like many in this draft.
More like everyone in this draft with a very few exceptions.
If Biyombo drops, or Tristan Thompson drops, or most of those guys, I bet u'd find a million reasons why. Because you know what, they were all flawed and it was well recorded.
The fact is, he was one of the more highly valued guys in this draft.
Everyone gets smart after the fact. And starts declaring guys role players at most.
Yes, teams passed on him, and yes, teams reasoned about it (surprise!).
It just seems funny to me when people make it sound like we didn't give up anything or that a guy is a guaranteed future bum because he slipped. He didn't lose the upside overnight.
Was it a good deal for both teams? Maybe, we'll be sure in 4-5 years. But "there is a reason why he slipped" does not take his potential away. Draft history has tought us that many times.
Bird got an NBA veteran. He got a scorer who by Spurs' fans own admission is also their best defender. And he got it without paying a cent and without trading anyone. The fact he's a local boy is just gravy.
This draft was weak by almost any standard; loaded with risks, question marks and projects. And we went out and got a proven commodity who addresses team needs. Win, win, win. All these sky-is-falling Pacers fans need to get over themselves.