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Thread: The Point Guard Situation

  1. #1

    Default The Point Guard Situation

    I know I hold a tiny minority position on PD about the Pacers greatest need going into the 2011-12 season. Everyone is convinced the problem is Hansbrough and the power forward position. Based on his comments it seems even Bird feels this way. I think Hansbrough will be a vastly improved player come this fall so I am not overly concerned about his position and especially if he is getting some coaching this summer and putting in a lot of work.

    My problem is with Collison and Price and their inability to pass the ball. I do not say they are ball hogs. I don't mean that. I am saying they lack the ability to see the court and make the passes a true point guard ought to make. I guess part of what bothers me is seeing the link IndyPacer put up on another thread of Larry Bird entitled, when you click through to the YouTube video, "Larry Bird Greatest Passer of All Time."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4

    Not everyone can be the greatest but I would settle for a Nash or a Rondo. I don't know how many times this past season when the Pacers would get off on a semi fast break with Collison having the ball and Hansbrough in front of him posted up one on one in an ideal situation for him very near the basket where he should have gotten the ball but did not the result being a lost ideal opportunity. I got to the point where I was wondering if there was a problem between the two players. However, I don't think that was the case at all. Was Collison waiting for a better set up? If so it was poor judgment for there were times when the set up he had was as good as it is going to get if he would have just passed the ball.

    Or how many times drives would be made, the defense close in, with us having a man open on the wing or side. What happens? Some slop shot is thrown up instead of the handoff. Until some of our guys learn the glory of the perfect pass and how to make it I don't care how many points they get things are not going to be dramatically better. This team needs some quality passers among those guys who handle the ball the vast majority of the time.

    Collison has great speed, a good looking jump shot, can do a lot of good things, but until he decides he wants to be a Nash like player versus a Kobe type player he is not going to be the point guard we need in my opinion (which I recognize is a minority opinion). Hibbert was right during the season about "getting the ball where he needs it" and I would add "when he needs it." Late passes even to the right guy just do not work. Timing is everything.

    I have wondered if Collison's size is part of the problem but neither Nash nor Rondo are very big either. I just don't know what the real problem is. With a big clumsy guy, maybe a little uncoordinated, you can kind of figure it out but point guards do not fit in that category. I would say much the same here about Price as I do Collison but Price is the backup.

    Neither Collison or Price could even think about guarding or even slowing Rose down during the playoffs either. We basically played 4 guys trying to guard 5 once Rose beat them out front. It is hard to win that way. Now I understand clearly that I cannot complain much about that for Rose is exceptional and who can guard him one on one? No one! I am not laying the blame for losing the series on either of our point guards. Still, if you ever want to beat Chicago you have to remember Rose is going to be around for a long time to come. Something will have to be done if there is not to be more of the same year after year.

    I can see why Bird is trying to keep Stephenson around. I would do the same until it proved impossible or else you get to the point where you see he is not going to develop.

    The most exciting aspect of basketball is the perfect pass not how many points a man can score. Scorers are a dime a dozen in the NBA and always have been. I would hope our point guards become passers extraordinaire versus being primarily scorers as they look to develop their talents for the future and the betterment of the team.

    I only add this, sometimes a guard can get a number of assists just by passing around the perimeter. I want them to set up plays per Nash. I know I want too much. Comments?

  2. #2
    Stay focused SMosley21's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    I almost stopped reading at "I would settle for a Nash or Rondo". You would SETTLE for Nash or Rondo?

    and

    Neither Collison or Price could even think about guarding or even slowing Rose down during the playoffs either. We basically played 4 guys trying to guard 5 once Rose beat them out front.
    Collison tried guarding Rose in Game 1, after that it was either Paul George or Dahntay Jones on Rose almost exclusively the rest of the series.
    Last edited by SMosley21; 06-02-2011 at 11:20 AM.
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  4. #3
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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    I agree, we need a point guard that is able to pass the ball and make a simple pass, neither DC or Price can do that, they are small guards in a point guards body, the funny thing to me is that in the "Monta Ellis thread" the people that are againts it say that Monta is not a point guard but forget that neither DC or AJ are.

  5. #4
    Eating some cranbaisins The Sleeze's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    I have been saying we need a distributor at the PG position. I want Darius Morris!!

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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sleeze View Post
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    I have been saying we need a distributor at the PG position. I want Darius Morris!!
    Who?

  7. #6
    Eating some cranbaisins The Sleeze's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Who?
    Michigan PG that averaged 6.7 assists per game, 5th best in the nation.

    Darius Morris interview with Pacers
    http://www.nba.com/pacers/video/2011...outf4v-1716635

    Workout with Pacers (check out the sweet pass at 46 sec.)
    http://www.nba.com/pacers/video/2011...htsf4v-1716728

  8. #7

    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    They are two year players. . . Nash wasn't the Nash we know and love until at least his 5th year in the league. The Pacers aren't even close to winning a championship so why people want to be impatient with young talent and discard it after one year I'll never understand.

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  10. #8

    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    I almost stopped reading at "I would settle for a Nash or Rondo". You would SETTLE for Nash or Rondo?

    and



    Collison tried guarding Rose in Game 1, after that it was either Paul George or Dahntay Jones on Rose almost exclusively the rest of the series.
    Yeah, we need a Nash or Rondo type player. Surely, there is someone out there somewhere that has a desire to be that type of player rather than a shooter. I know what you are saying, however. I guess my point was that the guard does not have to be best passer ever - Larry Bird - as per the video. He does not even need to be a Nash or Rondo but he does need to be that type of a player.

    And, you are probably right about who was guarding who during the playoffs. I don't remember but all I know is we had NO ONE who could do it. Why not get a point guard who can at least try and guard a point guard or slow him down? If a point guard cannot guard a point guard, at least slow him down a bit, that tells you right there you have a problem.

  11. #9
    Eating some cranbaisins The Sleeze's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    I still want Collison to be the starter, I want Darius for the backup. Move Lance to backup SG if he gets his act together.(I'm assuming Rush is gone).

    Price on the other hand I can live without. Sure he hits a 3 every once in awhile, but the offense just seems stagnant when he's in there.

  12. #10

    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by righteouscool View Post
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    They are two year players. . . Nash wasn't the Nash we know and love until at least his 5th year in the league. The Pacers aren't even close to winning a championship so why people want to be impatient with young talent and discard it after one year I'll never understand.
    Is that not what is happening to Hansbrough who does not even have a full 2 seasons behind him, more like a single year in terms of actual playing time. Everyone is out to put him back on the bench as quick as they can get him there.

    I am not against giving Collison or Price more time. In fact, is it not a given that they are going to get it??? Their positions are not threatened. Hansbrough's is, at least to a certain extent. I think that is a mistake. However, time will tell and in due time we will not have to guess or wonder about Hansbrough, Collison, or Price. They will either develop or they will not.

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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by righteouscool View Post
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    They are two year players. . . Nash wasn't the Nash we know and love until at least his 5th year in the league. The Pacers aren't even close to winning a championship so why people want to be impatient with young talent and discard it after one year I'll never understand.
    Floor vision and decision making is a thing you are born with and neither DC or Price have it, like I said before they are SG's not point guards.

  14. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Floor vision and decision making is a thing you are born with and neither DC or Price have it, like I said before they are SG's not point guards.
    Really? That's something your born with? I must of missed that in all my genetics classes. . .

    Come on, learning how a team run and court vision are as learnable as any basketball skill. Neither Nash nor Billips were effective distributors for a majority of their early career. I don't think anyone has a problem with how they run their teams now.

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  16. #13

    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by righteouscool View Post
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    Really? That's something your born with? I must of missed that in all my genetics classes. . .

    Come on, learning how a team run and court vision are as learnable as any basketball skill. Neither Nash nor Billips were effective distributors for a majority of their early career. I don't think anyone has a problem with how they run their teams now.
    This. THIS. THIS. 1000 times this.

    Second year players. And they are learning the hardest position on the floor. Both have things they need to work on, but both have shown they can be very good players. You don't just throw away two young PGs with definite potential. The third year, is when a PG will typically blossom. And both of them will have some things going for them, some consistency, so that we can see better where they are. We'll see where we are at this time next season.

    I swear people here would have given up on DRose and Westbrook if we had them, after what those two did in the playoffs.

    And I'll add to it, in the playoffs, it was the PF position that was terrible, and the SG position couldn't score.

    The PG's..both of them...came to play. The both had stretches of terrible play. But they also were significantly better than the PFs the entire series. You want to learn something about the young guys on this team, in the playoffs. DC and AJ showed a lot. Neither get too much credit for it though. Dun's leaving, gotta hate on someone.

    As for SG. I'm high, really high, on Paul. But I don't think he's there yet. I'd like to get one that can actually score so that we can have PG develop behind him and Granger.

    And also, I know we'd like a PG that can keep up with Rose and Westbrook. But most PG's can't guard Rose and Westbrook. Price is a pretty good defender, he did an excellent job on Nash. And DC..although he needs work..clearly improved throughout the season. We're lucky that we have Paul George who can defend those players that DC and AJ simply can't guard.
    Last edited by Sookie; 06-02-2011 at 12:25 PM.

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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by righteouscool View Post
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    Really? That's something your born with? I must of missed that in all my genetics classes. . .

    Come on, learning how a team run and court vision are as learnable as any basketball skill. Neither Nash nor Billips were effective distributors for a majority of their early career. I don't think anyone has a problem with how they run their teams now.
    Steve Nash is Santa Clara's all time leader in assist, I think he knew how to pass the ball before entering in the NBA, regarding Billups, I don't know were you get that he is some kind of pass first point guard.

  18. #15

    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Steve Nash is Santa Clara's all time leader in assist, I think he knew how to pass the ball before entering in the NBA, regarding Billups, I don't know were you get that he is some kind of pass first point guard.
    What's wrong with having a PG that looks to score? Billups is a true PG. He just is capable of scoring. He's won championships though..so that's not a bad thing.

    And the MVP is a score first PG.

    So what's wrong with having a PG that's primary weapon is scoring. So long as they don't go AI on us...(Although, as I said, put someone who can score with Price, and he won't shoot nearly as much. He's just the type that does what he needs to do. DC..one of his best attributes is scoring. It's a weapon..and it's not a bad thing.)

  19. #16

    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Steve Nash is Santa Clara's all time leader in assist, I think he knew how to pass the ball before entering in the NBA, regarding Billups, I don't know were you get that he is some kind of pass first point guard.
    Shoot first, pass first. It doesn't matter if the player can run an offense. Would you call Lebron James pass first? Doesn't matter, he runs the Miami offense like a maestro.

    What do college stats have to do with anything NBA related. I'd wager DC might have a harder time climbing the all time assist list at UCLA than Nash did as Santa Clara.

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  21. #17

    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Floor vision and decision making is a thing you are born with and neither DC or Price have it, like I said before they are SG's not point guards.
    Agreed. There is only one reason a man's floor vision would improve and that is if he is such a poor ball handler that he has to concentrate on that versus watching the floor. You should learn how to dribble (like Marcus Hayes - exaggeration for the point of emphasis) before you enter the NBA and that is a skill that can be learned. It just takes practice. If you can handle the ball there is no reason you cannot see the floor. The problem is in the head, not the eyes. Things do not register with some players like they do with others.

    It is basically called "instinct." Bird knew instinctively where his teammates were, or were going to be in a split second, and had all the ballhandling skills he needed to get them the ball. In fact, I once read where he said he could see a play developing X number of moves before it actually did (saw it in his mind based on the way things were layed out on the floor in positioning).

    A good high school point guard who has played with his teammates for awhile, and has the instincts, knows what move his forward or center is going to be making shortly just based on their position in relationship to the man guarding them and the opportunity available to them.

    A. J. Graves who played for Butler a few years back from my territory had this instinctively even in high school. He knew where guys were going to be and how to get them the ball. He did the same at Butler. If you have to make a decision, think about it, you are not going to make a point guard. The game is played too fast for decision making. You may improve with time but you either have the instinct from the get go or else you do not.

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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Floor vision and decision making is a thing you are born with and neither DC or Price have it, like I said before they are SG's not point guards.
    coming out of Santa Clara people were labeling Steve Nash a SG too.

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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    I almost stopped reading at "I would settle for a Nash or Rondo". You would SETTLE for Nash or Rondo?

    and



    .
    Ya about 27 other teams would settle with one of those two. I think if people expect the next Steve Nash they need to realize that he is once in a decade type player people have too high of expectations. If we some how get lucky and we het a pg who develops into a star like them two and play at a MVP level that would be a HUGE BONUS.

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  25. #20

    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerHound View Post
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    A. J. Graves who played for Butler a few years back from my territory had this instinctively even in high school. He knew where guys were going to be and how to get them the ball. He did the same at Butler.

    This brought a smile to my face as I remember watching his father Terry play BB for the Worthington Ramblers a "few years" ago. Tom Jamisom played on that team too.

  26. #21
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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Personally, I believe our starting 5 is set, and I'm comfortable with it outside of a blockbuster trade. I'm more concern about the backups, and I would LOVE a big PG. I really do hope that Lance Stephenson becomes a good player.

  27. #22
    Rooting My Family 2 Glory CooperManning's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Darren Collison has had four head coaches in two years. I'm giving him some time.

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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Darren Collison had a strong end to the season after learning his 4th offense in 2 years. He'll be fine. Price is a concern,but I think a gunner PG for the 2nd unit isn't a bad idea (JIMMER!)

    Our frontcourt IS what needs the attention,as we were only an average rebounding team. Average rebounding doesn't win rings.
    Pacers,baby!

  30. #24

    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    This brought a smile to my face as I remember watching his father Terry play BB for the Worthington Ramblers a "few years" ago. Tom Jamisom played on that team too.
    Yeah, I know those guys or did but Terry Graves is not A. J.'s Dad. A. J.'s family has a big plumbing company in Switz City and do work all over this part of western Indiana. Terry Graves was in education somewhere down in southern Indiana last I heard. I played ball against Terry who is a year older than me. We are going back in time.
    Last edited by PacerHound; 06-02-2011 at 02:43 PM. Reason: grammar

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    Default Re: The Point Guard Situation

    give Collison and Price some time, especially now that JOB is gone. he was a point guard's nightmare as a coach, i.e. TJ Ford.

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