The Knicks are apparently interested in trading up to get a shooter aka Jimmer or Brooks. Wait, isn't that who we're rumored to be interested in?
The Knicks are apparently interested in trading up to get a shooter aka Jimmer or Brooks. Wait, isn't that who we're rumored to be interested in?
I'd take 17 and Toney Douglas. Would the Knicks give him up?
Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
He's not a huge Star or anything...but I'd easily take Ronny Turiaf. He's a total "blue collar / Lunchpale" type of Player that Bird loves to have on his Team is a huge Lockerroom Vet with a lot of heart and drive. I'd take him to replace Foster as the Backup Big Man that can play next to both Hansbrough and Hibbert as a Rebounding Shotblocker.
I wouldn't do a "15 for 17+Turiaf" but I'd easily take Turiaf off of their hands for a TPE type of trade.
Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
Is it just me or does his mock draft not change? lol
Chad Ford Bismack Backlash: In wake of shaky Euro workout, Biyombo now offering to work out for few teams in the US - Pistons & Knicks both got calls
If he falls to #17 then I would do a swap with the Knicks.
The Knicks apparently want the same guys we do, why would we trade? No one on the Knicks I'm overly interested in.
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Perhaps this is who the Knicks are trying to trade up to get. They need a center next to Amare and would like to get better defensively. If the Pacers have no interest in Biyombo, perhaps the Knicks are looking to jump ahead of the Sixers if he slides, as the Sixers will be looking for a big as well.
That's really the only thing that makes sense as I don't think the Sixers would bother taking Jimmer or Marshon Brooks? If any it would be Jimmer, which would mean the Pacers are more high on Marshon and would like to add an asset, or lose a contract in the process
BUCKS NOTES: Thompson has the look of a great shooter
GERY WOELFEL email@example.com JournalTimes.com | Posted: Thursday, June 16, 2011 12:39 am |
Let me preface my thoughts on an NBA draft prospect with these words: There will never, ever be another Reggie Miller.
Miller was one of the most incredible shooting guards the world has ever seen. His repertoire of shots was simply mind-boggling.
In the eyes of many pro hoops observers, there was only one better shooting guard during Miller's era in the NBA and I think we all know who that is.
Which brings us to that draft prospect: Klay Thompson. He's a shooting guard from Washington State and, yes, he reminds me a lot of Miller - at the same stage in their careers.
Let us count the ways they are similar:
- Thompson can flat-out shoot the ball and shoot it with range, just like Miller did. He shoots the 3-pointer effortlessly.
- Thompson is hardly an athletic specimen but is clever with the ball and has an uncanny knack for getting his shot off whenever he desires, just like Miller did.
- Thompson has a slender build. So did Miller. Thompson weighs just a few pounds north of 200. Miller was just a few pounds south of 200.
- Thompson is 6-foot-7. Miller is 6-7.
- Thompson played in the Pac-10 Conference as did Miller, who went to UCLA.
- Thompson is perceived as a "soft'' player, the same perception Miller had entering the 1987 draft.
- Thompson is confident and articulate. Ditto for Miller.
- Thompson is projected to be drafted somewhere between 10 - where the Bucks pick - and 14. Miller was drafted by the Indiana Pacers at No. 11.
After Thompson worked out for the Bucks Wednesday at the Cousins Center, I couldn't help but tell Thompson how he is, in so many ways, similar to Miller.
Much to my surprise, and delight, Thompson said I was the second person in recent days who had favorably compared him to Miller.
That other person, Thompson said, was none other than the man who drafted Miller for the Pacers.
"Donnie Walsh told me that, too, after I worked out for the New York Knicks,'' Thompson said of the Knicks president and general manager. "I shot the ball pretty well in their workout and, because we have similar builds and similar size, Donnie told me how I really, strongly reminded him of Reggie Miller.''
When I noted how there were plenty of Miller skeptics when he entered the draft, and how 10 other teams passed on him, a broad smile came to Thompson's face.
"That could be me then,'' Thompson said excitedly. "I hope so anyway because I love Reggie's game.
"He wasn't the most overly athletic guy, but he sure knew how to play. That's exactly how I try to play.
"If I could be anything like him, if I could play like him one day, wow. That would be amazing.''
In that workout for the Knicks, Thompson was amazing. And he was Milleresque. He made a remarkable 21 of 25 3-point attempts.
- Thompson is an avid Los Angeles Lakers fan - his father, Mychael won three NBA titles while playing for the Lakers - but he said playing in Milwaukee could serve him well.
"I'd love to play here,'' Thompson said. "I love the city; I haven't been to a city I really don't like. But I know they have a good fan base here and the facilities are really nice.
"And I think I could just focus on basketball here.''
- Cory Higgins, a guard from Colorado, was one of six players who worked out for the Bucks Wednesday.
Next up for Higgins: a workout with the Charlotte Bobcats. The Bobcats president of basketball operations just happens to be his father, Rod.
"It's going to be weird, but I'll be fine,'' Cory Higgins said. "I'll be in a comfortable setting with people I know.''
Higgins, who played in the shadow of projected lottery pick Alec Burks at Colorado, isn't on most mock draft lists. And that, according to Jordan Hamilton, is a mistake.
"I think Cory Higgins is a good player; I think he should be a draft pick,'' said Hamilton, the Texas shooting guard who also worked out for the Bucks and is a virtual lock to be taken in the lottery. "I think he's flying under the radar.''
- Hamilton is on a short list of players the Bucks are seriously considering with the 10th overall pick. But there's a chance he might not be on the board when they make their selection.
Hamilton has already worked out for the Charlotte Bobcats and, according to an observer, turned in the best performance among a talented group that included Kawhi Leonard of San Diego State, Chris Singleton of Florida State and Tyler Honeycutt of UCLA.
The Bobcats were so impressed they have asked Hamilton to return for another workout. The Bobcats have the ninth overall selection.
- Hamilton, when asked who he patterns his game after, said, "As a two (shooting guard), I think I'm like James Harden. As a three (small forward), I'm a cross between Danny Granger and Paul Pierce.''
- Considering how the Bucks have a keen interest in both Hamilton and Thompson, Higgins was asked to play the role of his father and evaluate both players' games.
"They both can shoot the heck out of the ball,'' Higgins said. "Jordan is tough because he's so big and can get his shot off so easily. That's a great asset for him.
"Klay is crafty and quick. He's quicker than you think. Klay is a good shooter, too. But there's a lot more to his game than just shooting. He's great at putting the ball on the floor and I don't think a lot of people have recognized that yet.
"I think both will be just fine.''
- Two veteran NBA scouts agreed the draft's two biggest risers are Texas power forward Tristan Thompson and Singleton.
- All indications are the Bucks will pass on Brigham Young University guard Jimmer Fredette if he's on the board when they pick.
- As of Monday, teams could extend qualifying offers to restricted free agents. The Bucks haven't done that with Luc Mbah a Moute yet, although it's only a matter of time before they will.
- Look for Cleveland, which has the Nos. 1 and 4 picks in the draft, to pull the trigger on a trade and acquire another pick in the teens
Lots of interesting stuff here. I wonder who the team in the teens that Cleveland has a possible deal with, I'd love to get JJ Hickson or Sideshow Bob as part of a deal like that?
Jimmer not going to the Bucks at 10.
Singleton and Tristan Thompson being risers?
Klay Thompson and Reggie comparison seems weak to me, Reggie was spectacular because he got 99.9 % out of his abilities and he was an assasin, those are characteristics that are very very rare.
Last edited by Speed; 06-16-2011 at 08:24 AM.
Klay Thompson is starting to sound more and more intriuging. We might need to grab "the next Reggie Miler" if he is there at 15.
ESPN has the draft tiers out but its insider. Anyone care to post?
Greg Oden is a tier 1 player. So I guess drafting a player who never plays is a great value for a draft pick. Rubio is a 2nd tier... How freaking dumb. Just say "pick 1 to X is tier 1, pick x to pick x is tier 2, etc." because obviously what tier he places them in has nothing to do with on-court performance.
This year, no one grades out at a Tier 1 level for him. He likes Irving and Williams, and considers them to be potential All-Stars, but neither projects to be a dominant, game changing force in the league.
I may not agree with all of his rankings, but his methods make sense.
Every time I put up a new mock draft (Mock Draft 5.0 came out Wednesday), I get a lot of feedback from readers who wonder how I put it together and how it differs from the Top 100. This is how it works: Both pieces are reported pieces. In other words, I talk with NBA scouts and executives to get a sense of:
A. Which teams like which players (mock draft).
B. What the consensus is among all 30 NBA teams about who the best players in the draft are (Top 100).
I use the word "consensus" lightly. Often, even GMs and scouts employed by the same team can't agree on rankings of players.
I had a very interesting conversation in Treviso, Italy, last week with a number of NBA executives and scouts about just how subjective this process is, how many backroom fights go on, and how, from time to time, teams literally don't make up their minds until they are on the clock. They gave me a lot of (off the record) funny examples. The point was that every team does things a little differently, and even within a team, there often isn't much consensus.
Obviously, both the mock draft and Top 100 are imperfect because the draft is an inexact science. NBA teams do more than watch prospects play games. They work out players, give them psychological tests, do background checks and conduct personal interviews. All of this factors into the process and can change opinions.
Factor in the ranking wars with another age-old debate -- do you draft for need or for the best player available? -- and it's no surprise the draft can be so volatile. Many teams take into account holes at certain positions (i.e., the team has no small forward) or coaching/system preferences (i.e., the Knicks draft players who can fit into coach Mike D'Antoni's system) when making their decisions.
To make sense of disparate rankings and debates over team needs, the past few years I've chronicled a draft ranking system employed by several teams that have been very successful in the draft, what I call a tier system. Instead of developing an exact order from one to 60 of the best players in the draft, these teams group players, based on overall talent, into tiers. Then, the teams rank the players in each tier based on team need.
This system allows teams to draft not only the best player available, but also the player who best fits a team's individual needs.
So what do the tiers look like this year? After talking to several GMs and scouts whose teams employ this system, I put together these tiers. (Because the teams do not want to divulge their draft rankings publicly, the teams will remain anonymous.)
Players are listed alphabetically in each tier.
Note: This category is usually reserved for guys who are surefire All-Stars/franchise players. Last year, John Wall was the only guy in this tier. In 2009, Blake Griffin was the guy here. This year, Kyrie Irving and Derrick Williams are at the top of the draft, but neither guy is projected as a franchise player or a surefire All-Star.
Kyrie Irving (draft range: 1 to 2)
Derrick Williams (1 to 3)
Note: Irving and Williams are the two top players on the boards of the teams I spoke with, regardless of team needs. Both players are projected to be starters and potential All-Stars. While it looks like Irving has the best shot of going No. 1, there's still an outside chance it could be Williams.
Enes Kanter (2 to 6)
Brandon Knight (3 to 7)
Kawhi Leonard (5 to 9)
Jonas Valanciunas (3 to 8)
Jan Vesely (3 to 10)
Kemba Walker (3 to 9)
Note: This is a larger-than-usual Tier 3, which says something about how NBA GMs are seeing this draft. They believe the six players above all have NBA All-Star potential, but all six have significant weaknesses that could keep them from living up to it. All six players were consensus Top 10 picks. Leonard and Walker barely squeaked into this tier. A number of teams have them in Tier 4. Some teams believe Knight, Kanter and Valanciunas could all end up as Tier 2, or even Tier 1, players over time.
Bismack Biyombo (8 to 20)
Alec Burks (10 to 17)
Jimmer Fredette (7 to 15)
Marcus Morris (9 to 15)
Chris Singleton (10 to 18)
Klay Thompson (9 to 17)
Tristan Thompson (6 to 16)
Note: This is a smaller-than-usual tier and it was difficult to find a real consensus here. Teams are saying that these seven players will likely fill out the rest of the lottery. This is where the real depth of the draft is. Biyombo, Burks, Singleton and both Thompsons each got one or two Tier 5 votes. Since we've listed 15 players, one of these eight will likely slip out of the lottery.
Davis Bertans (17-29)
Marshon Brooks (13-20)
Kenneth Faried (13-21)
Jordan Hamilton (11-19)
Tobias Harris (14-22)
Tyler Honeycutt (18-30)
Reggie Jackson (17-31)
Nikola Mirotic (20-30)
Darius Morris (21-35)
Markieff Morris (13-19)
Donatas Motiejunas (12-20)
Josh Selby (17-28)
Nikola Vucevic (14-21)
Note: These players look like locks for the first round, but most likely won't make the lottery. A few teams had Brooks, Harris, Markieff Morris and Vucevic in Tier 4, but not quite enough for them to make the cut; they were very close, though. Bertans, Honeycutt, Jackson, Mirotic and Darius Morris were borderline picks here. Every one of these players dropped out of the top 30 on at least one NBA team's draft board.
Tier 6 (All First-Round Bubble)
Jon Leuer Shelvin Mack
Note: This is what I would call the first-round bubble group, and this is where the consensus started to break down. A few teams had Harper, Jenkins and Tyler in Tier 5, but many did not. Overall, there are just two spaces left in the first round ... so most of the players on this list are falling to the second round.
So how does the tier system work?
A team ranks players in each tier according to team need. So, in Tier 4, if point guard is the biggest need, a player like Fredette is ranked No. 1. If shooting guard is the biggest need, Alec Burks or Klay Thompson is ranked No. 1.
The rules are pretty simple. A team always drafts its highest-ranked player in a given tier. Also, a team never takes a player from a lower tier if one from a higher tier is available. So, for example, the Bucks are drafting No. 10 (Tier 4 territory); if Kawhi Leonard (a Tier 3 player) is on the board, they take him regardless of positional need. If the Bucks have Klay Thompson ranked No. 1 in Tier 4, they still take Leonard, even though shooting guard is a more pressing need.
This system protects teams from overreaching based on team need. The Bucks won't pass on a clearly superior player like Leonard to fill a need with Thompson. However, the system also protects a team from passing on a player who fits a need just because he might be ranked one or two spots lower overall.
Last year, I gave you my all-time favorite historical example from the Atlanta Hawks. Because of team positional needs, former GM Billy Knight took Marvin Williams ahead of Chris Paul and Deron Williams in 2005, and Shelden Williams ahead of guards such as Brandon Roy and Rajon Rondo in 2006.
Here's another one: The Raptors selected Rafael Araujo with the eighth pick in the 2004 NBA draft because they needed a center desperately. Most teams had Araujo as a Tier 4 player, but the Raptors selected him in a Tier 2 category because there were no centers available in their tier.
If the Raptors had employed a tier system, they would have ranked inside the tier based on team need and fit, rather than just ranking the prospects from 1-30.
In that case, the Raptors likely would have grabbed a player like Andre Iguodala instead.
Like every draft system, the tier system isn't perfect. But the teams that run it have found success with it. It has allowed them to get help through the draft without overreaching. Compared to traditional top-30 lists or mock drafts, it seems like a much more precise tool of gauging which players a team should draft.
Hummm I am starting to think go big with the first round pick, and possibly try to trade up to early in the 2nd, late in the 1st and take a shot at Malcolm Lee... plays point and hearing a lot of good things about him especially on the defensive end... plus he is 6'6" and extremely fast...
Especially if Reggie Jackson is off the board... which is most likely possible..
I didn't like my first response, sorry.
Comparing the tiers should be around what production they will have in the league, not comparing them to a pre-draft expected production of a player already in the league and actually producing.
I don't care what tier Oden was predicted to fall in, I care what tier he's actually in NOW.
That's how you compare players, and their projected impacts in the league, by actually comparing them to something tangible. Instead, he's just comparing them to nothing.
Why in the world do I care that BRush was predicted as a tier 4 player, before the draft, if he turned out to be a tier 6 player?
Telling me Brush was a tier 4 prospect and then saying Jimmer is a tier 4 prospect makes me think that Jimmer will perform like Brandon has been producing, and doesn't make me think of what he was projected as to be.
EDIT: I guess the best way of saying is that he's comparing projections against projections, when he should be comparing projections with actual production.
Last edited by Since86; 06-16-2011 at 01:00 PM.
In reference to previous years it is just showing how this year and previous years compared when ranking tier 4 talent.... as you can see some panned out and others didn't at all.. nothing is the end all be all but as far as selection this is the way that most teams work...
I know what it's SUPPOSED to do, but it's not good at what it's doing.
If I tell you that Jimmer Ferdette and Brandon Rush are both in the same tier, do you think that Jimmer will turn out like Brandon or like how Brandon was supposed to turnout?
I picture him turning into the Brandon Rush that we know, not the Brandon Rush that he was supposed to be.
Once a player is drafted, and starts producing on the court, they should be moved into the tiers based on play and not projection. He's not comparing them to anything tangible.
When you think of Brandon Rush, you think of what he is rather than what he was supposed to be.
I moved this to it's own thread
*I based the needs off of who the Pacers have been bringing in for workouts and we all know we need a PF and a scorer*
So based on Pacers needs (PF, SG, PG, C, SF in that order), then the Pacers tiers would look like this:
Derrick Williams (PF)
Kyrie Irving (PG)
Enes Kanter (PF/C)
Jan Vesely (PF)
Brandon Knight (PG)
Kemba Walker (PG)
Jonas Valanciunas (C)
Kawhi Leonard (SF)
Tristan Thompson (PF)
Bismack Biyombo (PF)
Alec Burks (SG)
Jimmer Fredette (SG/PG)
Marshon Brooks (SG) (moved to tier 4 based on Pacers interest of him)
Klay Thompson (SG)
Marcus Morris (SF)
Chris Singleton (SF)
Kenneth Faried (PF)
Markieff Morris (PF)
Donatas Motiejunas (PF)
Reggie Jackson (PG)
Darius Morris (PG)
Josh Selby (PG)
Nikola Vucevic (C)
Jordan Hamilton (SF)
Tobias Harris (SF)
Davis Bertans (SF)
Tyler Honeycutt (SF)
Nikola Mirotic (SF)
So essentially we could just go down the list and mark people off and whoever is the highest left would be our pick....interesting.
Last edited by The Sleeze; 06-16-2011 at 01:30 PM.
Any idea on what the Pacers plan on doing with their pick at 15?
Chad Ford (1:33 PM)
I think they'll try to fill one of three needs. They need a long, athletic big man who can block shots and rebound. They want to add a bigger point guard to pair with Darren Collison. And they really need a player who can create his own shot off the dribble in the backcourt. Fredette fills two of those needs which is why he's projected to go here. If he's off the board, Tristan Thompson or Markieff Morris are the two likely suspects.