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Thread: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

  1. #1

    Default I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Theory -> Bird had a 3 year plan

    That 3 year plan involved having O'Brien coach the team for 3 years, and then would be fired for a new coach to take the team in a different less rebuilding direction.

    When the decision was made to finally fire O'Brien (too early for Bird), he choose the weakest, youngest, newest guy on staff. The reason for this was it would be easier to fire him and replace him with who he wants (A veteran like Aldeman)

    Now, we are just waiting out the process for Bird to finally let that bomb drop. He may delay it until after the lockout just to distance the time even farther from the Playoffs so it's easier to let Vogel go.

    It's not that Vogel's a bad guy or anything, but Bird had a plan, and Vogel's success is screwing with it.

    The big problem with this is, we cannot hire a coach immediately, so coaches are getting snatched up.

    It was strange we picked Vogel as the coach, but now it makes perfect sense. He was the easiest guy to fire later, so Bird could continue his rebuild plan.

    Thoughts?
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    Member Eleazar's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    I think you are reading too much into this.

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    Member yoadknux's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Yeah I don't think so... I sometimes wonder if they came up with the three year plan three years ago or one year ago...

  5. #4

    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Is it really that far out there? Choosing a temporary guy that you think is easily replaceable, so you can later get a guy you really want?

    Never explain with stupidity what you can explain with self interest.
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Quote Originally Posted by notque View Post
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    When the decision was made to finally fire O'Brien (too early for Bird), he choose the weakest, youngest, newest guy on staff.
    You got a problem there. That description does not fit Vogel.


    Thoughts?
    Yeah. Stay away from Oliver Stone movies.

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    Batman's New Side Kick Psyren's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Wow.

    Some people.

    Please, stop with these ridiculous threads about Vogel not being ready, Bird not wanting to hire him, blah blah blah.

    We don't know if he'll be re-hired. Maybe he will be. Maybe he won't be. Only time will tell.

    Until then, stop worrying about it. It will be what it will be, and we can discuss why whatever happens happened when the time comes.

    Until then, these theories have just gotten a bit ridiculous.

    /End Rant.


    EDIT:As far as my theory goes, I think taking the time is the right decision. I want to know who we hire as much as the next guy, but I think Bird is doing what he should do, and that's taking his due time.He'll do his homework on the candidates, evaluate each carefully, and make a decision from there.

    Personally, I'd rather that be the case. I don't want a guy hired immediately just because we've heard of him before. That's no reason to hire someone.

    When a decision is made, I'll have faith in Bird that it was the right choice. I may or may not agree with it, but I'll give my full trust in Bird until proven otherwise.

    Until then, just be patient. We'll know soon enough.
    Last edited by Psyren; 05-28-2011 at 07:42 PM.
    Stop quoting people I have on ignore!

  9. #7

    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
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    Wow.

    Some people.

    Please, stop with these ridiculous threads about Vogel not being ready, Bird not wanting to hire him, blah blah blah.

    We don't know if he'll be re-hired. Maybe he will be. Maybe he won't be. Only time will tell.

    Until then, stop worrying about it. It will be what it will be, and we can discuss why whatever happens happened when the time comes.

    Until then, these theories have just gotten a bit ridiculous.

    /End Rant.
    Point taken.
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  10. #8
    Member Eleazar's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Quote Originally Posted by notque View Post
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    Is it really that far out there? Choosing a temporary guy that you think is easily replaceable, so you can later get a guy you really want?

    Never explain with stupidity what you can explain with self interest.
    Actually yes. Bird just isn't that kind of guy. It is incredibly unlikely Bird chose Vogel for any reason other than he thought he was the best of who was left. With that said you are probably right that Bird thought he wasn't going to be good enough to hire afterwards, and he probably thought that of all of them. That doesn't mean he was trying to find the weakest link (which Vogel obvious wasn't), it just means he didn't have a lot of faith in the remaining coaches. In fact I am betting Bird was pleasantly surprised by Vogel, just not convinced. If Bird really didn't want to hire him we most likely would hear more about the Pacers going after guys like Brown. Instead we hear about them taking their time with this decision. To me that says they liked what they saw from Vogel, but aren't completely convinced. So they are testing the market to make sure Vogel really is the best option.

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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Don't be so hard on him. It's speculation, and no speculation should be discouraged, no matter how unlikely the theory is. You guys can be so harsh.

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  13. #10
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    I think you are close.

    Although, don't forget O'Brien was here and in his 4th season when he was fired.


    But I digress.... You are close because IMHO Vogel was originally nowhere on the radar of who the next coach was going to be. Had O'Brien been fired when he should've been (prior to season 4 if not prior to season 3) then Vogel at best would've gotten a courtesy interview. ...If that...

    Bird probably did have people on his radar that he could see following O'Brien if/when O'Brien was no longer coach... and not one of them was Frank Vogel IMHO. But then the monkey wrench in the works is Bird fired (or was forced to fire) O'Brian and so Vogel inherited a team that was better than their record indicated, coached by a bad coach that had more than worn out his welcome and one that the team wanted no more to do with (and neither did 90%+ of the fans)... Vogel then got the team to the playoffs. And it was no thanks to his predecessor because Vogel had to post a winning record to do it. Something O'Brien couldn't do.

    Vogel not only endeared himself to fans and apparently players alike, but also the owner of the team (an owner that would like nothing more than to see Vogel's bargain price on the paycheck's he'll cut for the next head coach). So Bird either needs to suck it up and hire Vogel or face a PR backlash that won't end until and unless his chosen hire meets or exceeds the current fan expectations for Vogel (which are mostly fairly high).

    This was a situation totally of TPTB's own making because there was no way O'Brien should've been on the Pacer bench to start this season. And if my vote counted he wouldn't have started year 3 either. Anyone could've seen there was no chance O'Brien could survive the season without a major fan revolt... and likely player revolt too. His expiration date was WAY WAY past. It was bound to fester up to a point it had to be lanced (insert Lance joke here). But that meant there was always the chance an interim coach could hit a homerun with the slow softball that he was being pitched....

    ....And in this case an interim coach with a paper thin resume'...

    ...And that's exactly what happened.

    Think about it- There's just no way possible Vogel was in Bird's future coaching plans for the Pacers prior to O'Brien's firing. None. But circumstances, and the job he did with them, put him there.

    Which doesn't mean Bird is totally against Vogel... But he has to see Vogel as an unknown... and not one of his original thoughts in coaching for the Pacers.

    I bet, truth be known, Bird would love nothing more than Vogel taking another job elsewhere and letting him get back to the coaches on his original checklist.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Member Isaac's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
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    Wow.

    Some people.

    Please, stop with these ridiculous threads about Vogel not being ready, Bird not wanting to hire him, blah blah blah.

    We don't know if he'll be re-hired. Maybe he will be. Maybe he won't be. Only time will tell.

    Until then, stop worrying about it. It will be what it will be, and we can discuss why whatever happens happened when the time comes.

    Until then, these theories have just gotten a bit ridiculous.

    /End Rant.
    I agree to an extent, but it's still a message board on the internet in the offseason. What else are we gonna talk about?

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    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit View Post
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    It's speculation, and no speculation should be discouraged, no matter how unlikely the theory is.
    I totally missed this message board law, thanks for letting me know.
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Jimmy selected his asts so they would be no threat to taking over his job (job secuity). IMO, Herb told Bird to fire Jimmy, but he wasn't paying for another established coach. Thus Vogel got the job of finishing out the season. It makes sense that Vogel's success was a fly in the ointment that was totally unexpected. I'm not sure T-Bird feeling the next coach Bird hires coming outta left field doesn't have merit to it. I'm not saying Musselman, but someone not even on the radar. Look for someone with ties to the Celtics. Bird seems to have this fascination with Celtic ties and seems to feel comfortable with them. Personally, I find that thought faulty as best. If Bird doesn't select the right coach this time, another Jimmy, he going to give his opponents even more fodder for his being a poor FO person. A blunder of important decisions. He had better make the right choice for the Pacers and his own sake. The future of the Pacers is counting upon it!

  19. #14
    Release Psycho T pwee31's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    With Mike Brown to the Lakers, McHale to the Rockets, the Warriors are now choosing between Lawrence Frank and Casey.

    Let's say the Warriors go with Casey...that pretty much leaves Vogel for the Pacers if Adelman joins Blazers front office.

    Of course we don't know who Bird has talked to or interviewed besides Vogel, but it would seem he'll get the job by default, UNLESS there's a left field candidate.

    Can we think of coaches that haven't been mentioned by Bird?

    Lawrence Frank
    Sam Mitchell
    Jeff Van Gundy
    Eric Musselman
    Mark Jackson
    Brian Shaw
    Larry Brown
    Mike Woodson
    Mike Fratello
    Jerry Sloan
    Eddie Jordan
    Mike Dunleavy
    Terry Porter

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    The Mole ColeTheMole's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Quote Originally Posted by pwee31 View Post
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    Lawrence Frank
    Sam Mitchell
    Jeff Van Gundy
    Eric Musselman
    Mark Jackson
    Brian Shaw
    Larry Brown
    Mike Woodson
    Mike Fratello
    Jerry Sloan
    Eddie Jordan
    Mike DunleavyTerry Porter
    Breaking News: Mike Dunleavy hired as Pacers head coach.
    In other totally unrelated news, Mike Dunleavy Jr. just signed a five year/125 million dollar deal and was inserted into the lineup at starting point guard.
    DG for 3

  21. #16
    Release Psycho T pwee31's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think Vogel was chosen to not be rehired.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColeTheMole View Post
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    Breaking News: Mike Dunleavy hired as Pacers head coach.
    In other totally unrelated news, Mike Dunleavy Jr. just signed a five year/125 million dollar deal and was inserted into the lineup at starting point guard.


    I like MDJ, but

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