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Thread: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

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    Post Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!
    Written by thunderbird1245

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    Hello all. I interrupt my draft profiles tonight with some thoughts on the Pacers coaching search and

    The name I am going to throw out there tonight I believe would be a strong candidate to be our next head coach, and in fact I believe he is likely being considered, for a variety of reasons.

    Remember, when Larry Bird hired Jim O’Brien a few years ago he caught most of us totally off guard. Bird keeps his coaching searches close to the vest, but from his statements and actions over the last few years I think we can take away some of the things Larry believes are important in who coaches his team:

    -Bird likes a disciplinarian, someone who runs hard practices and runs a tight ship.

    -Bird also is going to pick players based on his own vision, not necessarily the view point of the coach.

    -Bird likes coaches with previous head coaching experience.

    -Bird cares little about what the fans think, and will keep his search away from the media speculation.

    -Bird will likely hire someone who will not break the bank money wise.

    I now believe, though it is very possible I am wrong, that Bird is not going to retain Frank Vogel. I think if he were going to do that, he’d have already made the move to keep him. Instead, Bird is playing the field, doing his research, and trying this time to find someone who can better implement his own vision for how a team should play, while still having all the above traits that Jim O’Brien had that Bird valued.

    ————————————————————————————————————————————— —–

    Having said all of that, I have a potential candidate to name, which is one I am sure none of you have even considered or even thought about. My candidate is former Sacramento Kings and Golden State Warrior head coach Eric Musselman.

    Let me tell you his resume first, in case some of you aren’t familiar with him.

    Musselman is the son of a coach, old grizzled veteran coach Bill Musselman. Bill was a coaching legend in the midwest and in various levels of coaching, spending alot of time in Minnesota, both in college and with the Timberwolves. For the coaching grinders, Musselman was one of a kind….no one worked teams harder or squeezed more out of less than Bill Musselman. He never won big, never had great jobs, never had great success….but many great coaches never fall in the right situations. Trust me, almost everyone in the basketball business would have a good opinion of Bill Musselman.

    Eric is a chip off the old block, though much more of a modern thinker than his old man. He got his start coaching in the old CBA, and was very successful there, going 270-122 there. For those of you who scoff at coaching records in the CBA, keep in mind that both Phil Jackson and George Karl got their starts there as well. We all think coach Vogel is young, but Eric Musselman began coaching in the CBA at age 23!

    He has experience at the NBA level, being the head coach of Golden State for 2 years (for the 2002-03 and 03-04 seasons), and he served as the replacement for Rick Adelman in Sacramento for one season in 2006-07. While not extraordinarily successful by any means, keep in mind he did finish second in the coach of the year balloting one season. Also keep in mind just how pitiful both those franchises have been in recent years, and what a coaching graveyard both of them have become.

    Now, I am biased to a degree in liking Coach Musselman. I once went to a clinic he spoke at back in my younger days, and got to spend some time with him then. His topic at that clinic was using technology and new statistics to coach better by the way, so he was somewhat ahead of the curve on that way of thinking. A few years later when he coached the Warriors, SI did a feature piece on him….and his use of technology and new coaching thinking was a big part of the article.

    I got to talk to Coach Musselman a little a couple of weeks ago at the Adidas May Classic here in Bloomington, and once again came away impressed. I am not sure exactly why he was there to be honest, maybe he had a son playing I don’t know. ( that was a fun night, as I ran into him and Eric Gordon within 15 minutes of one another.) Musselman has largely been out of the mainstream, but he has been doing some media stuff the last few years, and I know he still has a burning desire to coach. I even had read he was a strong candidate to join the Bulls staff when Thibodoux was hired, but that didn’t happen apparently.

    Musselman has strong ties and connections throughout basketball. In his many stops he has either worked with or for Flip Saunders, Chuck Daly, Doc Rivers, Lon Kruger and Mike Fratello, and he played for long time coaches Jim Brovelli and Hank Egan in college. Because of those deep contacts he’d be able to put a much better staff together than Frank Vogel probably can…..one of the likely people we’d get in a Musselman staff is one of his former CBA players and IU player Keith Smart (ex coach of Golden State and hero of IU’s 87 national champions)

    Bird will know Musselman from a variety of contacts throughout basketball, but more than any other Bird is connected to Musselman through a man named Jerry Reynolds. Reynolds is a long time NBA executive and media person who also happens to be from French Lick Indiana. I don’t know this for sure of course, but I believe that one of the people Larry consults with and gets ideas from is Reynolds, and JR worked with Musselman before in Sacramento I believe.

    And keep in mind that Musselman will likely be willing to take a smaller and shorter length contract, something that may be important to both Bird and to ownership.

    So in summary, Musselman would be a hard working coaching grinder,* has head coaching experience, would likely be able to put together a great staff, is still only 46 years old, is a pioneer in new coaching technology and the statistical revolution, and would likely come pretty cheap on our pocketbook.

    I am not saying this is going to happen for sure or is even being considered….obviously I am just a high school coach and schmuck who posts on an internet board for fun……but don’t be surprised if it happens.

    Remember, you heard it hear first!

    And in off chance that Vogel is retained, Musselman would be a great candidate for his new staff as well. One way or the other, I think there is a great chance Coach Eric Musselman is in our organization in some capacity next season.

    While not a sexy hire, and even though it might cause an uproar here on this board and all over the area….it actually would be an inspired and savvy choice if Bird hires Musselman as our next head coach. He would do a high quality job for us in my view.

    What other off the wall, under the radar candidates do you think Bird is considering? Throw out some names, and get creative….I have a feeling Larry is going to surprise us again!

    As always, the above is just my opinion.

    Tbird


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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    Was it a DUI which ended Musselman's term at Sac? I am sure TPB will perform due diligence research. Depending on circumstances I would have a contractual clause, if legal, which was tied to his relationship to Bill W. Not every incident indicates a serious problem, but most do. Good for a young team, not sure. Am I correct that his tenure was pre-Tyreke?

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    I like Eric. I have listened to him on the radio many times & he is sharp. IIRC he lost the one of his gig's after a DWI arrest. I believe that is why he is currently out of the NBA coaching ranks, but I know he is well thought of. While I do not see him as our next head coach, I do agree w/ this:
    And in off chance that Vogel is retained, Musselman would be a great candidate for his new staff as well. One way or the other, I think there is a great chance Coach Eric Musselman is in our organization in some capacity next season.
    and then I would hope for either Chuck Person (if not retained in LA) or this:
    one of the likely people weíd get in a Musselman staff is one of his former CBA players and IU player Keith Smart (ex coach of Golden State and hero of IUís 87 national champions)
    That would be a very nice bench!!!
    "Larry Bird: You are Officially On the Clock! (3/24/08)"
    (Watching You Like A Hawk!)

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    I agree with the idea that the longer this goes on the less likely it is that Bird is sold on Vogel. It doesn't mean Vogel won't get the job in the end, but it will be because candidates Bird liked better got other jobs or because some potential candidates ultimately don't impress Bird (and possibly Simon) enough to choose them over Vogel. If it ends up 'all else being equal' then Vogel will get the job IMHO... but I think Bird is hoping to find something different/better.

    So your idea of Mussleman makes sense. And I'd already thought of him too but didn't know all the connections back to Bird that your drew.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    I wouldn't be opposed to Musselman, but I'd prefer Casey or even Sam Mitchell

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    Very good post. I had never thought about him and that he does have such a good pedigree. I like Vogel a lot as well, and maybe he would be willing to be on Musselman's staff as an assistant.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    I'd be surprised if Jerry Reynolds recommended Musselman to Bird. I remember the Kings being highly dysfunctional while he was the coach. Of course Artest is tough to handle, but I seem to remember two or three other players having public disputes. I also recall player problems in Golden State, including Mike Dunleavy Jr.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    You don't really want anything to do with Eric Musselman.

    All and all, he did a very nice job in 2 seasons with the Warriors, but it was a gimmick. The players tired of him and his gimmicky teaching tactics. In the end, they just didn't really respect him as a coach. He really got exposed about a year later when he coached the Kings, where he was one and done.

    He's a nice guy and is very well spoken. Sounds fairly articulate as an analyst and doing interviews but, as an NBA coach, he's just not a good fit.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    I thought he had issues getting along with his players? Didn't we just fire a coach who pissed off his players?

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    Jerry Reynolds the broadcaster?

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    I forgot about Eric Musselman.

    I remember hearing he was going to be an assistant under Tom Thibodeau, but guess not.

    He wasn't anything that good to be a head coach in the NBA again.

    He was Reno Bighorns (D-League) head coach.

    Also I didn't know he was arrested when he was the current Kings coach.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    I'm not saying any of you guys are right or wrong, just trying to read Bird's mind a little bit.

    But for all the naysayers out there, let me play devil's advocate for a bit:

    What coach was it that was canned after less than 2 years from his first NBA job, then resigned from his second NBA job near the end of his second season with that particular team? This coach was said to be grumpy, demanding, too emotional, etc etc in his younger days. Then said coach was in basketball purgatory, so he had to climb back up thru the CBA level and European basketball before finally getting another chance at a 3rd job years later.....and at the time of that hire that franchise was criticized roundly for recycling another retread coach?

    Since then the coach I am thinking of has alot of success in a few different spots, and is widely considered by most to be a top 5-10 NBA coach at this current time?

    I am thinking of George Karl. Not saying Eric Musselman would be a great NBA coach with that type of success if he gets back into it.....but I wouldn't rule it out either. He is older now and alot more mature, and this situation is different than the dumpster fires he inherited in his first 2 stops. He is too smart, with too good of a background and basketball mind to at least not be under consideration.

    Anyway, I'm not really trying to advocate for him really, the point of my piece was just to make sure you guys wouldn't be surprised if you hear is name.....I am guessing if Vogel isn't the selection (and I am starting to have doubts that he is the way Bird is acting) then whoever Bird selects will likely be out of left field again, just like JOB was.

    Possibly Mr Boyle will see this thread and have some input or thoughts on Eric Musselman that he can share.

    Tbird

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    He is older now and alot more mature,

    Tbird
    Posters on this board generally scoff at the idea that people can mature and grow. You may have just cursed him.

    But thanks for the interesting speculation.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Jerry Reynolds the broadcaster?
    Yep. Fellow Hoosier.

    Outside of Mark/Slick, Grant/Jerry are my favorite NBA broadcasters. They're great to listen to.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I thought he had issues getting along with his players? Didn't we just fire a coach who pissed off his players?
    Yes, and we kept him waaaaaay too long too. And technically, I don't think any of us could say he was fired because he pissed off the players.

    In fact, some reports indicate if it was Bird's call he wouldn't have been fired at all anyway.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    Assistant, maybe. Head man, no way, especially with the DWI. Keep in mind there is STILL a amount of the potential fanbase that thinks the Pacers are a bunch of thugs. Do we really want to bring in a guy with a DWI on his record to be the head coach of the team?
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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    Hiring Musselman to be a head coach is like signing Dunleavy to be your starting 2 guard. He has a place in the league, but that isn't his value. If we hired Musselman I guarantee we'd be calling for his head next offseason and by the middle of season 2 at the latest.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    I'm not saying any of you guys are right or wrong, just trying to read Bird's mind a little bit.

    But for all the naysayers out there, let me play devil's advocate for a bit:

    What coach was it that was canned after less than 2 years from his first NBA job, then resigned from his second NBA job near the end of his second season with that particular team? This coach was said to be grumpy, demanding, too emotional, etc etc in his younger days. Then said coach was in basketball purgatory, so he had to climb back up thru the CBA level and European basketball before finally getting another chance at a 3rd job years later.....and at the time of that hire that franchise was criticized roundly for recycling another retread coach?

    Since then the coach I am thinking of has alot of success in a few different spots, and is widely considered by most to be a top 5-10 NBA coach at this current time?

    I am thinking of George Karl. Not saying Eric Musselman would be a great NBA coach with that type of success if he gets back into it.....but I wouldn't rule it out either. He is older now and alot more mature, and this situation is different than the dumpster fires he inherited in his first 2 stops. He is too smart, with too good of a background and basketball mind to at least not be under consideration.

    Anyway, I'm not really trying to advocate for him really, the point of my piece was just to make sure you guys wouldn't be surprised if you hear is name.....I am guessing if Vogel isn't the selection (and I am starting to have doubts that he is the way Bird is acting) then whoever Bird selects will likely be out of left field again, just like JOB was.

    Possibly Mr Boyle will see this thread and have some input or thoughts on Eric Musselman that he can share.

    Tbird
    Personally I'm not a big fan of Karl.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    I'm not sure about it being Musselman...but I agree that I think that the Coach that Bird hires is going to come right out of right field....a guy with Coaching Experience and a guy that is a stickler for "practice" ( insert obligatory Allen Iverson response here ).

    Whoever is going to be coaching isn't going to be a high profile Coach ( cuz they don't want to come into a situation where we essentially are a step above Rebuilding )...but someone that won't overwhelm nor underwhelm us...much like JO'B was.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    Just to further this discussion mainly cuz I am bored and it gives us something to discuss, I recall that I posed this question to Warrior RealGM fans when we were inbetween Coaches after Carlisle was let go and Musselman's name came up ( either in our own internal PD Discussions or whether there was any actual rumors popping up in the Media ).

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showpost...1&postcount=93

    My post is roughly 5 years old, but I am guessing that this still holds true ( to a certain degree ) regarding him ( NOTE that this was prior to him being hired to SacTown ):

    A couple of weeks, I had posted a question to the Warrior Fans on RealGM so that I can get an impression of what type of coach that Eric Musselman was during his tenure as the Warrior's Head coach.

    Below is a quick summary of what I was able to gather from their comments:

    PROS:
    - He is able to adapt his coaching style to changing situations
    - For Non-Starters, he would play the players that earned their minutes regardles of who else was sitting on the bench.
    - Believes in discipline among his players
    - If given the right players, he can be a defensive-minded coach.
    - He is a Quick Learner


    CONS:
    - Stubborn coach that could butt heads with Management and players.
    - Definitely not a Players Coach
    - Frustrating ( yet Odd ) substitution patterns
    - poor In-Game Management
    - Big Ego
    - seems like he has favorites on the team


    In-Between PROS and CONS ( not sure if its a good or bad thing )
    - Runs a Motion Offense
    - yanks players for continually making mistakes
    - May have been limited due to Management interference
    - Some think that Musselman would be a good coach on a team with an established roster and organizational Support for him.


    Filtering through most of what was said there........towards the end of his coaching career with the Warriors.......it sounded more like what we are facing now with Carlisle. You either hated...or loved Musselman for his coaching style.

    A few highlights that are worth noting:

    - Didn't really want to play DunDun in his rookie year. The rumor is that Musselman was essentially forced by Mullin to give Dunleavy significant minutes.
    - Rumored to not get along with JRich. This problem....coupled with butting heads with Mullin.....is rumored to be one of the reasons why he was eventually fired.
    - Didn't play Pietrus as much in his rookie and Sophmore years...unless he had to. Although many did not agree with Musselman during that time....hindsight....it looks like they agree with what he did as Pietrus did not appear to be ready that early in his career.
    - Played players like Earl Boykins and Brian Cardinal ( both considered hustle and hardworking players ) in favor of other players like Gilbert Arenas or other team favorites.


    Although most of the threads could be considered "informed" opinions......it will give you a good idea about Musselman. Its very possible that he will still be the same coach as he was with the Warriors.....but also possible that in the 2 years that he has been an assistant coach under Mike Fratello....he has grown a little.
    TBird could probably comment on whether any of this is true or if he sees any truth to this in the way that he Coaches. I'm guessing that the opinions expressed by the Warriors fans were ( in some way biased ) but it's very possible that he's matured a little bouncing around the NBA Coaching gigs.
    Last edited by CableKC; 05-28-2011 at 03:38 AM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    His coaching style sounds a little toooo much like Voldemort for my liking.,.

    NO THANKS!

    Vogel is our man , as far as I'm concerned ..
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    I really, really, really hope you're wrong, TBird. I'm almost as unimpressed with Musselman as I was with JOB. I would be extremely disappointed if we hired him.

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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    The whispers of a 1 year deal IF Vogel gets the job coupled with the length of this coaching search does kind of speak to Vogel possibly being a "contingency" plan for Bird. Being a former season ticket holder of a CBA team, I do remember him and thought that his CBA teams always came to Fort Wayne ready to play & kick the Fury's collective asses. I thought Mussleman would have had a very successful & long career in the NBA due to what he was able to accomplish in the CBA at a very very young age.

    I was totally shocked that he fell apart as a head coach in the league... Anywho, I do agree that the discipline angle ranks high with Bird and may be a solid reason why Vogel "may" just be a contingency plan.
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    In regards to KC's list above, it's funny how different people see different things. Musselman's adaptable, but stubborn and has poor in-game management. Players earn minutes, yet he has frustrating and odd substituion patterns and plays favorites.

    Back to the original topic, I agree with Tbird that Musselman has many of the same traits as Jimmy. He is more adaptable, but as I recall he's a motion guy through and through. I don't know, he's the kind of guy that you'd jump for joy to get him on staff, but not neccessarily in the big chair.

    That gives me a thought. IF we hire Vogel, how much you wanna bet it's not until we have a full staff to announce as well? Sure, some coaches have their staffs lined up (Jimmy), some don't (Rick.) But I think it's gotten to the point that Frank's not gonna be hired until Larry feels completely comfortable with the staff they have around him.
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    Default Re: Tbird topic: Under the radar name in the coaching search?.you heard it here first!

    I was very high on him, very high on him before Sac-town. I thought he did well with the warriors.

    maybe good as an asistant
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 05-28-2011 at 08:45 AM.

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    By thunderbird1245 in forum Market Square (General Non-Sports Discussion)
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    Last Post: 04-01-2008, 05:30 PM

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