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Thread: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

  1. #51
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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    I don't want to compare the two necessarily but seeing LeBron take on Paul Pierce and Derrick Rose, score at will, and keep that Heat offense humming in these playoffs has been something else.

    LeBron took over the game on both sides of the court in game 5. With about two minutes left, he decided that the Heat were going to win. As impressive as he was offensively, finding Bosh/Wade, hitting shots, he was smothering on defense. I never felt like Rose had a chance. It was like watching him dominate teenagers in high school again.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    I can see what Scottie is saying. LeBron has all the tools to be better than Michael. He can do things that Michael physically couldn't and has freakish athleticism. And now that he has a team that is actually good, he has set himself up to have the success Jordan had.

    I also think that LeBron has finally developed the mental aspect that Jordan and Kobe have. He is clearly a better player this year. He seems mentally there. I think Pat Riley has something to do with that.

    I can see LeBron going down as the GOAT. He's not there yet of course, but his career is incomplete and its not like he is at a point where he is close to the end. When Jordan came along people didn't think he would be as good as Bird or Magic and same goes for any player who is this good. And then it happens, they do it. I don't see LeBron having something that is holding him back from getting there. So yes, LeBron can become better than Jordan.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    At the age of 26 the man has been a multi mvp winner. He has taken teams with little talent to the finals. He can be the scoring champion any year he wants while still dishing out assists at a high rate. He rebounds the basketball like a power forward and can guard the arguably leagues fastest point guard. Oh yeah he is in the finals again.

    I do not care for jordan or lebron. I think jordan was great, but lets not over exaggerate our memories of him. Everything Jordan did lebron is doing at a higher level.

    The next mission for lebron is dominate the finals on several occasions and this will not be a conversation.

    After all the radio shows doing dirk vs bird talk all week I am about tired of the vs talk. Players really shouldn't be compared unless they match up against each other.
    Last edited by dohman; 05-28-2011 at 09:11 AM.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    I think we need to see Lebron retire to get a better assessment on which is the greatest.

    I will say tho, IMO, night in and night out MJ has the edge to this point.
    MJ to this point, wanted it more. The ball and the wins. MJ seized the moment like no other.
    MJ created for himself much better.
    MJ had better stylish points.

    Lebron is a physical freak of nature.
    Lebron is a more dominant physical player to this point.

    It will be interesting how Lebron physically holds up in the next few years. And how he can refine his game as he physically declines.

    I don't think it's fair to judge Lebron on not having a Championship, He hasn't had a team nearly as good as MJ till this year. But, if he chokes in the Championship series against Dallas. We may have our answer sooner then I would anticipate.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Woo, To some of you speaking scoring title whenever Lebron wants it thing but he gets his teamates involved.

    You don't think MJ did? I remember MJ having like 8 ast. per game one year.

    MJ always got his teamates involved and he also had more steals then Lebron (I think). MJ was lke a 9 time all defensive team also (I think).

    Been about 10 - 15 years, but hard to forget all he did.

    I think some of you are getting AI confused with MJ? lol

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by quinnthology View Post
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    You're kind of tweaking the narrative to make Jordan better than he is, and better than a single human can be. He didn't simply "will" himself to a championship, a lot of things happened that were out of his hands. Phil Jackson joined the team and a year later they won the championship. Scottie bloomed into one of the best all-around players in league history and Grant became a really solid big man. Are you attributing their increase in skill to Jordan "holding them accountable", rather than the natural development of players with great potential?
    Not sure how I am tweaking the narrative. Without Jordan being the perfectionist he was (as in, holding everyone accountable), there is no way the Bulls could have won all those championships. Sure, Jackson came and Pippen developed, and you have to have good people around you to win like that. This is true with every contending team. Would Pippen and everyone else reached their max potential without Jordan? IMHO no. Pippen would have had the best chance, but everyone else would have been average to under-average players on any other team. This does not include Rodman, as he was already a known commodity when he went there and had nothing to do with his progression with the Bulls.

    Quote Originally Posted by quinnthology View Post
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    Their management drafted players that eventually became a championship squad. LeBron's never did. It really is a simple as that, but for some reason people don't respond well to that logic.
    The reason people don't respond well to that logic is because it's the smaller part of the equation. Jordan was the bigger part.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    Everything Jordan did lebron is doing at a higher level.
    I know memories of NBA past fade with time but come on. This is ludicrous. Jordan = GOAT. LeBron isn't even the greatest of his generation so far.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    And for those of you that hold weight to what Scottie said, he and Jordan don't even get along. And how would Pippen try to push Jordan's buttons? Just like this.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by HickeyS2000 View Post
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    And for those of you that hold weight to what Scottie said, he and Jordan don't even get along.


    This was 3 months ago. Michael Jordan doesn't display positive emotion for anyone.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    LeBron James has a BRONZE Olympic Medal while playing with all PROFESSIONAL players. Michael Jordan led the team in scoring the last time an all COLLEGE team won the GOLD at the Olympics.
    LeBron was also almost left off of the 2008 Olympic team because of his immaturity. Jordan might have had gambling issues, but his desire to win, compete and become better have never been questioned. Also, I don't remember Jordan making the Bulls sign his buddies to their summer league team.
    Like others have said, LeBron might have more talent and physical gifts. Jordan without question was the better professional and complete player.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by quinnthology View Post
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    This was 3 months ago. Michael Jordan doesn't display positive emotion for anyone.
    Not liking someone doesn't mean you can't have a positive moment with them.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    Everything Jordan did lebron is doing at a higher level.
    Passing, transition defense, and post defense are the only things that LeBron is doing better than Jordan. And the passing gap is much smaller than you think. This is just wrong.

    I also don't get the people who don't take the playoffs and rings argument seriously. The NBA Playoffs are not the NCAA tourney, when you get there the best team wins the majority of the time. How the hell else can you objectively assess teams' and players' abilities?
    Last edited by judicata; 05-28-2011 at 02:55 PM.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by judicata View Post
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    I also don't get the people who don't take the playoffs and rings argument seriously.
    Because people abuse it. The way people say it makes it sound like it's the only stat that matters when comparing players, as if Mark Madsen is better than Reggie Miller. It just doesn't work that way, because if you put Lebron with those Bulls teams, are you going to deny they still win 6 titles?

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by HickeyS2000 View Post
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    And for those of you that hold weight to what Scottie said, he and Jordan don't even get along. And how would Pippen try to push Jordan's buttons? Just like this.
    Didn't Jordan introduce Pippen at his Hall of Fame induction? And if you read any of the books about their championship runs, Pippen was one of the few guys in the locker room that Jordan did get along with.

    This is not about Pippen having some younger brother complex. People have this insane obsessiveness about Jordan's greatness but the truth is LeBron isn't that far away from him in terms of ability and he's actually better in some ways.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by HickeyS2000 View Post
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    Not liking someone doesn't mean you can't have a positive moment with them.
    That is a little bit more than a positive moment. That is almost a full on hug. To say the MJ and Pippen aren't best friends off the court I can see, but not liking each other I do not see at all. I imagine what happened is something was reported about MJ and Pippen having a disagreement, or that they aren't friends off the court that got turned into MJ and Pippen don't get along and disliking each other. When the truth is they just aren't good friends, but still respect each other.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    Because people abuse it. The way people say it makes it sound like it's the only stat that matters when comparing players, as if Mark Madsen is better than Reggie Miller. It just doesn't work that way, because if you put Lebron with those Bulls teams, are you going to deny they still win 6 titles?
    I would deny they would win 6 titles. Outside of Rodman, Grant, and Pippen there is absolutely nothing impressive at all about who Jordan had on his teams, especially with the last 3 championships. If there is one case where the championships do matter it is with Jordan because I don't believe there has ever been any other wing player that could have won championships with those teams. Put a dominate center on those teams and they will win championships. Put Kobe, Lebron, Bird, Magic, etc. on that team and I doubt they get to the finals more than once or twice.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickRelease View Post
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    It's not merely a matter of saying Jordan lost before. That fed into what made him great. Jordan is just all around a better player than James. I disagree with the 'watered down period' statement.
    Jordan losing before didin't make him great. It was just the natural evolution of how some great players have to lose to other great teams before they win. Jordan losing to the Celts/Pistons before he won, the Pistons losing to the Celts/Lakers before they won, etc...

    Same thing will most likely be true of Lebron and Durant.

    As far as being an all around player, Lebron is a better passer, rebounder and he can defend more positions. I think it's arguable about who was better "all around." Jordan's biggest knock before he won a title was that he was the most selfish player in the league. Some people are just forgetting completely about the 1st half of Jordan's career.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    If you want to talk about a watered down period talk about the NBA from 2000 until now. Not 95 to 98. If anything the 90's was the most talented era of basketball, and had no watered down point. The talent may have been on the down side of their careers, but they were still highly talented. I would expect Rik Smits to be considered one of the best centers in the league if he played today in his prime.
    The most watered down period of the NBA was from 95'-98' and here's why:

    -The league just had two expansion teams in Vancouver and Toronto during the beginning of this period.

    -When this expansion occurred, the huge influx of European/International talent had yet to occur. This influx of talent from overseas helped plug up diluted talent over the years, but it didn't happen immediately.

    -Look at who Jordan beat during this time:

    The Magic lead Lakers on their last legs. That was it for them.

    The Pistons on their last legs. They did not rebuild for about another 12 years.

    The powerhouse Celtics easily had their worst stretch post Bill Russell. Much the same way the 80's were horrible for the Yankees. They were a total non-factor in the 90s.

    He beat Stockton and Malone for his last two titles. Now look at those Jazz teams with Stock/Malone. Those two guys regularly got their butts kicked in the playoffs by the Rockets, Sonics, Blazers, etc... They never made it to the Finals. The teams that regularly beat them got old and their windows closed while Stockton and Malone had a couple years left in their prime, and they finally got by them.

    There was a period when the main thing Jordan had to worry about was an Ewing led Knick team with no real second option. Consider the fact that those Knicks just barely got by a Jordan-less Bulls teams in 94'. Could have gone the other way with that controversial foul in Game 7. Reggie and the Pacers gave them one good scare in 98' and if Jordan stuck around for another year, it wouldn't have surprised me to see the Pacers beat them. I would argue that the Spurs/Kings/Blazers teams that Kobe beat for titles were better than any competition Jordan beat in the playoffs.

    Jordan still G.O.A.T in my book, but I'm not totally blind by his myth to not even look at the context in which he won.
    Last edited by d_c; 05-28-2011 at 08:37 PM.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by judicata View Post
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    Jordan was better. Who cares if he struggled in his early career like James has? He was much more dominant during that period, and its the stuff that came after that really names him the GOAT.
    I wouldn't necessarily say so. Lebron with a worst supporting cast won more games and got a worse franchise deeper into the playoffs and closer to winning a title than the pre-Phil Jackson Jordan.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    [QUOTE=d_c;1242847]-Look at who Jordan beat during this time:


    He beat Stockton and Malone for his last two titles. Now look at those Jazz teams with Stock/Malone. Those two guys regularly got their butts kicked in the playoffs by the Rockets, Sonics, Blazers, etc... They never made it to the Finals. The teams that regularly beat them got old and their windows closed while Stockton and Malone had a couple years left in their prime, and they finally got by them.
    QUOTE]


    I think the Stockton and Malone Jazz teams you mention would have easily won the title this year over Lebron's Heat. Malone averaged over 27 ppg during that era and won the mvp in 97 & 99. 2 of the top 50 players in league history on the same team, that's real competition. Granted their were some weak teams in that era but overall a much higher level of competition then today. I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    [QUOTE=Pacerized;1242850]
    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    -Look at who Jordan beat during this time:


    He beat Stockton and Malone for his last two titles. Now look at those Jazz teams with Stock/Malone. Those two guys regularly got their butts kicked in the playoffs by the Rockets, Sonics, Blazers, etc... They never made it to the Finals. The teams that regularly beat them got old and their windows closed while Stockton and Malone had a couple years left in their prime, and they finally got by them.
    QUOTE]


    I think the Stockton and Malone Jazz teams you mention would have easily won the title this year over Lebron's Heat. Malone averaged over 27 ppg during that era and won the mvp in 97 & 99. 2 of the top 50 players in league history on the same team, that's real competition. Granted their were some weak teams in that era but overall a much higher level of competition then today. I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.
    As I said, as good as Stock and Malone were, they were regularly getting bounced in the Western Conference playoffs year after year during the PRIME YEARS of their careers

    They had to wait until teams that were beating them got old and had their windows close to eventually advance, when they still happened to have some gas left in their tanks. Basically, they had to wait for Hakeem and Clyde to get old and for Magic to retire. They weren't any better those two years they got to the finals than they were in their primes. They stuck around long enough and waited it out.
    Last edited by d_c; 05-28-2011 at 09:00 PM.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Based on following the stories that always came out in Chicago about their relationship, Scottie never said anything nice about Michael, and had quotes such as "I don't even have his phone number" and that they weren't friends, but Michael was always PC about the relationship. I remember reading last year that the two of them had gotten together several times last summer around the city and had started to rekindle a friendship. Who knows what has happened since.

    I think it is silly to compare Michael to LeBron before Bron wins a ring. It is very likely this conversation could make a lot more sense in two or three years, but Michael with this team the Heat have would have never lost to this Mavs team. In fact, I say Michael sweeps them. LeBron has the skill, absolutely, but does he have MJ's killer attitude in the playoffs? We haven't seen that yet.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
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    Based on following the stories that always came out in Chicago about their relationship, Scottie never said anything nice about Michael, and had quotes such as "I don't even have his phone number" and that they weren't friends, but Michael was always PC about the relationship. I remember reading last year that the two of them had gotten together several times last summer around the city and had started to rekindle a friendship. Who knows what has happened since.

    I think it is silly to compare Michael to LeBron before Bron wins a ring. It is very likely this conversation could make a lot more sense in two or three years, but Michael with this team the Heat have would have never lost to this Mavs team. In fact, I say Michael sweeps them. LeBron has the skill, absolutely, but does he have MJ's killer attitude in the playoffs? We haven't seen that yet.
    I agree with you dude! But i think its all a moot point until he has 6 rings!!

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by panthro_1 View Post
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    I agree with you dude! But i think its all a moot point until he has 6 rings!!
    Jordan's 6 rings are a moot point until he wins 7 like Robert Horry.

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    Default Re: 5/27/11: Scottie Pippen on "Mike and Mike in the Morning"

    Quote Originally Posted by ndcoltsnpacers View Post
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    Jordan's 6 rings are a moot point until he wins 7 like Robert Horry.
    Come on. Obviously Jordan's titles and LeBron's (subjunctive) titles were won mostly be LeBron and Jordan. You can't say the same for Horry. I hate that argument that titles are irrelevant to the comparison of all time greats. Michael was great because you always knew his team would win. If LeBron can't get past Dallas with Wade and Bosh on his team there is no way you can compare the two!

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