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Thread: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

  1. #151

    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Lots of good points in this thread - lots of nonsense too.

    Bottom line - the 1 year thing was a blurb by some hack. I don't believe it for a second.

    Frank got this team to play after JOB had totally screwed up the mentality of just about everyone on the team. They played hard, they played smart - alas, they played young. They'll grow up. So will Frank.

    I don't think there's a better choice out there.

  2. #152
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Maybe it's ideal for us, but it's insulting to him.
    As Kid Minny says, this isn't a guy that was doing the Pacers a favor by taking over. It was a lottery shot to end up as the HC even for a few months. The team was down and there wasn't a ton of promise that this would go somewhere.

    He parlayed that into a longer shot to prove himself. If he comes through in reasonable fashion he'll have another paper to sign long before the season ends.

    And it's only insulting if it's way out of context with the other offers he's getting...and if he's not getting ANY offers then it's actually rather complementary for the Pacers to make an offer at all.


    You guys act like he proved something like Pop, Sloan or even Carlisle in the turnaround.

    DICK VERSACE
    BOB HILL

    These are guys that made similar short term improvements. Should the Pacers have given them longer deals or would it have been better to "insult" them instead?

    There is precedent here and it doesn't favor Frank's 3 month window. No one is telling him to hit the bricks, they are only saying "we're giving you the chance to keep making a rep for yourself".

    What if he does so well that he demands more money on the open market than the Pacers could lock him up for now? Is that also an insult to Frank? Oh no, now he has to get paid by the Nets way more than the Pacers can afford all thanks to how unfair the Pacers were to him.




    And for the record, I think Frank is very capable of improving his coaching status and building a very nice career. I don't expect failure. Maybe that's why the offer doesn't bother me so much. Ultimately it doesn't change much for his overall HC career unless he surprises me and underperforms or loses the team.


    Quote Originally Posted by KSutton
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    Why is that so hard to understand that Vogel is more the exception than the rule? Given his previous lack of coaching background, the fact that other Teams are even THINKING about him is unprecedented.
    Bingo. A 1 year offer at this point sounds like a fairy tale if you ask someone last December even. 6 months from zip to potential long term HC, and people are wound up about it?

    Hopefully Frank is far less prone to look a gift horse in the mouth like this. If he doesn't want the one year shot then give it to me. I'm more than happy to bust my butt and try to prove something while getting paid to do something I'd love doing.

    At WORST he returns to his prior status which wasn't too shabby a career.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 05-19-2011 at 10:31 PM.

  3. #153
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    I also want the Pacers to sign all their first round draft choices to only 1 year deals, afterall none are proven. If they won't sign 1 year deals then we don't need them, I'm sure we can find rookies who will be glad to have a 1 year contract.
    I don't think you are intentionally muddling the debate, but you are definitely MIXING 2 separate points.

    It's not "insulting" to offer the first round pick only 1 year, it's just RISKY. What if he is great, then you want him signed to 20 years at $1m a year. You're a genius.

    Or you sign him to AC, Bender, Tinsley, JO, Dunleavy, Murphy money and you are 100% F******.


    Either way, that's not the same point/issue as how a person should receive a potential 1 year offer to continue being a HC when just 6 months ago that idea was anything but on the near horizon.

    The "draft" scenario that fits Vogel is more like we call up some nobody from the CBA and he plays 2 solid months. Not all-star, but solid in a way that you'd like him to stay with the team.

    No other teams are willing to sign him, he's not done that well, but a few do bring him in for tryouts.

    And to you, not offering that CBA, no other deals pending player anything less than 2-3 years of NBA contract is insulting.

    It's not the same as telling a top 10 pick that 29 other teams would sign the instant you didn't that you only want him for 1 year and then "we will see". Not even remotely the same thing.

    And as I said, even then it's less about insulting Blake Griffin and more about just flat-out losing him when his 1 year runs out. If we sign Vogel for 1 year and at the end of that he signs with the Nets then the gamble was a bust. If he kind of struggles and we replace him with Sloan next year then the gamble was brilliant. Neither involves anyone being insulted.

  4. #154
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck
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    I mention the first three because they were 100% completely unproven as they had never been an NBA head coach before. (Vogel has)
    Well you've jumped the shark again, just when I thought you were past all your JOB ways.

    You are going to equate the STATURE Tom T had in the NBA with Vogel.

    Seriously, get a grip. Tom T had made a strong case as a top assistant and had been so high in the rumor mill that many of us at PD were asking for him to be hired.

    Vogel wouldn't have even been your choice had JOB kept his job this season, and even at the time of JOB's firing most of us had no idea just who would take over that role.

    In other words, a guy like Tom T is breathing down Doc's back for a few years. One misstep and he's out for Tom to take over. No one was saying "boy with Vogel waiting in the wings JOB better keep this team winning". Hell, it was just LESTER CONNOR that was breathing down JOB's back and many of us suspected that this was why he was let go.


    And you throw in Del Negro which is an epic fail in the "let's make a case for why it's good to sign unproven guys for multiple seasons".


    Maybe Bird said "hmm, I don't really see a lot of teams winning 3 years later with the unproven guys" and decides to not follow that path to failure.

    This would be 100% different if over the last 2 years Vogel had developed quite a rep as a strong assistant...you know, like Mike Brown did under Rick. 3 months as HC where the #1 actions you take are all the things that PD and fans were begging JOB to do (play the youth, work inside, avoid being a d-bag for no apparent reason) is not the same as 24-36 months of consistent output as the key #2 coach on the staff of a winning squad.

  5. #155
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    BTW, the more I think about it the more I'M INSULTED THAT THE PACERS OFFERED ME A ZERO YEAR DEAL!!!

    I'm unproven and UB just made an outstanding case for why that shouldn't matter. It's staggering to me to think that they wouldn't offer me at least 60 days. The season won't even be started by then and I'll take a lot less than Vogel on a per day basis.



    BTW, again for an UB loss - how's that MULTI-YEAR SEASON TICKET PACK working out for you Buck?

    What's that, no faith? You refuse to pay the team for more than 1 season at a time? Hold on, almost no one is paying the team for more than 1 season at a time?

    WTF? Isn't this PD? Don't you people have faith? Some of you don't even buy tickets ahead of time and lock in for a full season of commitment? Don't you know how many Mavs, Bulls and even Knicks fans are season ticket holders? They are doing it, so why aren't you? You'll be sorry when there are no tickets to be had 3 years from now. I doubt the team will even offer you tickets again if you didn't even buy a 10 game package yet. They've got pride you know.

    Sadly the last I heard Buck was still insulting the Pacers by making them a 0 seasons ticket package offer. I expect the Pacers to move thanks to this.

    (some of this should be in green. but only some of it)

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  7. #156
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    It has nothing to do with insults or risk assessment. It has to do with giving a coach the confidence to install a system that the players will buy in to, even if things get shaky and they drop a bunch of games in a row.

    I knew that professional sports had turned in to a "What have you done for me lately?" perma-hotseat, revolving door act for head coaches, but I never thought I'd see a 1 year contract.

    You can't keep throwing years away in the NBA to keep it safe. We got a lot of young guys right now. They need a plan. 1 year isn't a plan, its a holding pattern.

    Now someone go start a Tyler for MVP thread so Seth has something better to do than take shots at UB.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    I never got the buying into the system logic.

    If the players are having fun and like the coach, isnt the incentive for them to want to win so the coach gets a longer contract.

    I could kind of see where losing gets blown out of proportion and a coach is more likely to blame if he is a "lame duck", but I think that is extreme.

  9. #158
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Vogel wouldn't have even been your choice had JOB kept his job this season, and even at the time of JOB's firing most of us had no idea just who would take over that role.
    Boom...there's the million dollar comment that I was waiting for.

    However, we all might as well to agree to disagree at this point.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    We're not judging Frank on what we thought of him before he became head coach.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    I never got the buying into the system logic.

    If the players are having fun and like the coach, isnt the incentive for them to want to win so the coach gets a longer contract.

    I could kind of see where losing gets blown out of proportion and a coach is more likely to blame if he is a "lame duck", but I think that is extreme.
    Maybe someone with coaching experience can chime in with how long it takes a group of players to learn how to execute a system very well.

    You have the incentive correct when a team is gelling. But all teams go through rough patches, especially a young team without lights-out talent like the Pacers. The problem is how incentives line up when the team is struggling.

  12. #161
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    I was sort of on the fence before, but after this thread, I am 100% convinced we should act now and hire Mike Brown if we can. Vogel isn't the best coach available and this thread IMO proves it.

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  14. #162
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I was sort of on the fence before, but after this thread, I am 100% convinced we should act now and hire Mike Brown if we can. Vogel isn't the best coach available and this thread IMO proves it.
    At some point, someone has to give him a chance to shine.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    At some point, someone has to give him a chance to shine.
    Sounds like the D-League is calling.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I was sort of on the fence before, but after this thread, I am 100% convinced we should act now and hire Mike Brown if we can. Vogel isn't the best coach available and this thread IMO proves it.
    Buck... you also advocated Jim O'Brien hardcore... see where I'm going with the first half of this statement?
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I have had a change of heart. I can see your point now.

    I also want the Pacers to sign all their first round draft choices to only 1 year deals, afterall none are proven. If they won't sign 1 year deals then we don't need them, I'm sure we can find rookies who will be glad to have a 1 year contract.
    You know a lot of teams would prefer that... it's why they sometimes trade out of the first round. Who wants to tie them to a rookie salary that may be overpaid rather than getting a 2nd round pick with their own salary structure...

    I mean I don't know what you were trying to prove here but it's the exact logic for some teams to trade into the 2nd round. It's also why some Euros drop to the 2nd round so that they aren't limited by the rookie salary scale. It works both ways.

    The only way this doesn't work out for the Pacers is if Vogel turns out into some kind of coaching genius- and I have yet to see that happen yet or have any evidence of that happening.

    Why tie ourselves to the risk? As a small market franchise we are still in a position to be risk adverse- we will take on risk when we are contender- but as of right now we still need to do things right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Buck... you also advocated Jim O'Brien hardcore... see where I'm going with the first half of this statement?
    Irrelevant.

  18. #166

    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by judicata View Post
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    Maybe someone with coaching experience can chime in with how long it takes a group of players to learn how to execute a system very well.
    No NBA coaching experience by I consider myself a decent observer of the NBA. Unless it is something like the triangle offense, it doesn't necessarily take a team long to learn a new system, provided that the team has the preseason to work out the kinks. Most mid-season replacement coaches tweak rather than overhaul, but history has shown that it is possible for many first year coaches with full camps and preseasons, to have success in getting their players to adopt a new system.

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  20. #167
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Do you have any examples? I'd like to take a closer look myself. Thanks!

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Sources: Los Angeles Lakers mulling ex-Cleveland Cavaliers coach Mike Brown - ESPN Los Angeles


    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Stein
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    The Los Angeles Lakers are taking a deliberate approach to their search for a successor to Phil Jackson, but NBA coaching sources told ESPN.com the team has added Mike Brown to its list of candidates.

    The former Cleveland Cavaliers coach, now working as an analyst for ESPN, is expected to interview "soon" with the Lakers, sources say.

    Brown would become the fourth known candidate for the job, along with former Houston Rockets coach Rick Adelman, ex-Los Angeles Clippers coach Mike Dunleavy and Lakers assistant coach Brian Shaw, who is regarded as the only serious in-house contender to replace Jackson.

    Brown is widely regarded in coaching circles as the leading candidate in Golden State to replace Keith Smart. Indiana Pacers president Larry Bird also said this week that he intends to contact Brown -- as well as Adelman -- to gauge his interest in returning to Indiana, where Brown worked as an assistant before joining the Cavs.

    In Cleveland, Brown made one trip to the NBA Finals in 2007 and won NBA Coach of the Year honors in 2009 before his dismissal following Cleveland's second-round exit to Boston in 2010 and LeBron James' subsequent departure to Miami via free agency.

    ESPN.com reported last week that the Lakers are "very interested" in Adelman. Sources say that Dunleavy, who began his head coaching career with the Lakers in 1990-91 and went to the NBA Finals in his first of two seasons as Pat Riley's successor, has maintained a close relationship with Lakers owner Jerry Buss and executive vice president of player personnel Jim Buss and has also made it onto L.A.'s short list.

    ESPN.com also reported in March that the Lakers have maintained a level of interest in former Rockets and New York Knicks coach Jeff Van Gundy dating to last season, when Jackson also strongly considered retirement before deciding to come back for one more season.

    Brown is one of a handful of candidates already interviewed by Golden State, along with Dallas Mavericks assistant coach Dwane Casey, Boston Celtics assistant coach Lawrence Frank, TNT's Kevin McHale and Shaw and fellow Lakers assistant Chuck Person.

    Casey, McHale and Frank are the three finalists for the Rockets' job vacated by Adelman at season's end.

    In Indiana, Bird has publicly acknowledged that interim coach Frank Vogel is the favorite to land the job as Jim O'Brien's full-time successor after Vogel posted a 20-18 record and helped the Pacers secure a playoff berth. But Bird also made it clear that the Pacers intend to interview other candidates as well.

    Marc Stein is a senior NBA writer for ESPN.com.

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