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Thread: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

  1. #51
    Let PG Fly Again Soon! ECKrueger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    I don't know if it has been mentioned, but Roaming Gnome and Wells had this exchange:

    @MikeWellsNBA Are the Pacers seriously looking at a 1 year deal for Vogel? Might as well not say anything & keep the interim tag! #Dumb

    @RoamingGnome74 Likely a 1 year deal with a team option on the 2nd year.

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  3. #52
    Release Psycho T pwee31's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by PurduePacer View Post
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    I don't know if it has been mentioned, but Roaming Gnome and Wells had this exchange:

    @MikeWellsNBA Are the Pacers seriously looking at a 1 year deal for Vogel? Might as well not say anything & keep the interim tag! #Dumb

    @RoamingGnome74 Likely a 1 year deal with a team option on the 2nd year.

    That's the deal I thought it would be when I originally posted the article of this thread in the #teamvogel thread

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Again, for the "only give him a year" advocates - there isn't a single other coach out there you have more confidence in than a coach that you aren't confident enough to give more than a one year deal to?

    And you think if he turns out to be a coach not worth renewing a full season it has no repercussions at all, it's just an "oh, well, let's get another coach since we only invested a year" situation?

    This just smacks of "well, we HAVE to hire Vogel, so let's only give him a year just in case."

    Otherwise, what is it you are afraid will happen if he gets a 3-year contract, and why do you think it won't matter if it only happens for a year?
    Vogel is an unknown who's potential could go either way. He could be the second coming of Larry Bird (taking a sub-par .500 team consistently to the playoffs), or the second coming of Magic Johnson.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    A 1 year deal is a joke. Like it or not, NBA coaches are signed on for multiple years. If they are not, something is up. Signing Vogel for one year sends up red flags for everyone. Have fun reigning Lance in when he knows your contract is up in 6 months. Good luck selling a system to a team that has hit a rough patch and thinks that a new system will be installed soon anyway.

    A 1 year contract is like a relationship that "isn't serious." It is self-fulfilling. All parties will be eyeballing alternatives because they don't want to be the one that gets dumped, and everyone suffers.

  6. #55
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    No... a 1-year contract or a short contract with team options doesn't mean you're gone in a year. It means your contract is up in a year.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    He could be the second coming of Larry Bird (taking a sub-par .500 team consistently to the playoffs)...
    Sub-par? Huh? When Bird took over the Pacers were coming off a grand total of one bad season after seven consecutive playoff appearances and two consecutive Eastern Conference Finals appearances.

    Bird got the Pacers over the hump for sure, but to suggest Larry Brown wasn't the one who got them 90% up the hill is revisionist history.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    I don't see how some people are saying this is the most ebarassing and horrible decision this franchise has ever seen and since they've been following the Pacers. That to me is just a wild post. We've seen what he can do with half a season, now were giving him a full. If it doesn't work, which the 1-year contract is covering, we move on.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Crazy.

    Everyone wants to sign him to a longer contract to "Send a message." Not because you care about winning, or because you think the Pacers should do the smartest basketball moves, but because you care about Vogel's feelings.

    Over 43 games Vogel has done as well as any coach I've seen. He did a killer job. He did a job that I personally don't believe Mike Brown could do. But we also don't know if that's a fluke. That's why you do a one year contract.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Bird is working on a hand-shake deal, no written contract. So ANY contract given a coach is better than his boss has.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    One year deal sounds perfect for this kind of coach. Unknown quantity.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Crazy.

    Everyone wants to sign him to a longer contract to "Send a message." Not because you care about winning, or because you think the Pacers should do the smartest basketball moves, but because you care about Vogel's feelings.

    Over 43 games Vogel has done as well as any coach I've seen. He did a killer job. He did a job that I personally don't believe Mike Brown could do. But we also don't know if that's a fluke. That's why you do a one year contract.

    I don't give a wit about Vogel's feelings. It has nothing to do with that. I'd rather have Brown anyways.

    My point is I don't care if they hire the local 8th grade CYO coach you do not give a coach a 1 year contract. It is laughable they would even consider such a thing.

    Coaching good or bad is not a fluke, and if Bird is concerned about Vogel to that degree, then he needs to hire someone else.

    And I am utterly shocked that any of you think a 1 year contract is perfectly fine.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't give a wit about Vogel's feelings. It has nothing to do with that. I'd rather have Brown anyways.

    My point is I don't care if they hire the local 8th grade CYO coach you do not give a coach a 1 year contract. It is laughable they would even consider such a thing.

    Coaching good or bad is not a fluke, and if Bird is concerned about Vogel to that degree, then he needs to hire someone else.

    And I am utterly shocked that any of you think a 1 year contract is perfectly fine.
    Im a 100% on board with you Buck

    I dont like, it smells cheap, sens a signal that Vogel is a "stop gap" and what you mean Jimmy earned his 4 year run?

    You either find a proven head coach or you say F it and give Vogel a 2 year contract with option for 3 years

    I agree I think it makes our orginization look classless
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  21. #63
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    There's that "send a signal" thing again...

    They're *finding* their coach. They're just not throwing 3-4 years at him to start. Not a hard concept.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 05-18-2011 at 10:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    One year deal sounds perfect for this kind of coach. Unknown quantity.
    I guess I'm gonna beat the dead horse a little more.

    When Bird was hired as a coach he had absolutly zero experience, all he was, at the time, was a name.

    Vogel has been on a bench in one demension or another for almost a decade.

    I could understand if they were bringing in a season ticket holder or the guy selling cotton candy but for crying out loud guys, this guy is not an unknown.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    The 1 year deal could actually benefit Frank and he knows it. If he does a good job (and he's a very confident guy so HE thinks he will) he's likely to get a much bigger pay raise next year with a longer term then if he were to take a 3 year deal now.

    The Pacers also benefit because they don't need to commit a lot of revenue in case next year goes in the crapper. If they do great, people attend games, the Pacers make more money and will be more than willing to fork over more cash to Frank.

    Win-win if you ask me.

    IMO in the end I think Frank will do a good job, we will progress next year and be a 5 or 6 seed, he'll get a multi-year extension, and all this discussion will be mute.
    A healthy man takes a crap every day. A smart man does it on company time.

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  26. #66
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    1 year deal is a little insulting...I'm not sure Frank really has much leverage though.

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  28. #67
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Crazy.

    Everyone wants to sign him to a longer contract to "Send a message." Not because you care about winning, or because you think the Pacers should do the smartest basketball moves, but because you care about Vogel's feelings.

    Over 43 games Vogel has done as well as any coach I've seen. He did a killer job. He did a job that I personally don't believe Mike Brown could do. But we also don't know if that's a fluke. That's why you do a one year contract.
    Not what I'm saying. To expand on what UB commented, it is that if THIS coach has so many questions about him that you won't give him more than a year, how come you don't get one of the coaches available who DOESN'T have those questions?

    I feel like people are saying that there isn't a single coach out there they completely trust to take this team to the next level, so let's try one on and potentially waste a year.

    I suppose there's an element of "we think Vogel is the best coaching choice out there and we're doing the short contract because he'll let us" going on, but I think it means that we just aren't quite sure. There are other options besides Brown, who is basically Vogel with more HC experience (and some serious dues dealing with LBJ), and I'd think that there would be one of them who can be trusted to get these guys prepped for contention.
    BillS

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  29. #68
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by PurduePacer View Post
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    @RoamingGnome74 Likely a 1 year deal with a team option on the 2nd year.
    I would like that. A lot.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't give a wit about Vogel's feelings. It has nothing to do with that. I'd rather have Brown anyways.

    My point is I don't care if they hire the local 8th grade CYO coach you do not give a coach a 1 year contract. It is laughable they would even consider such a thing.

    Coaching good or bad is not a fluke, and if Bird is concerned about Vogel to that degree, then he needs to hire someone else.

    And I am utterly shocked that any of you think a 1 year contract is perfectly fine.
    Personally, I think giving coaches 3+ year contracts based on very little data/experience is absurd.

    Frank took advantage of his interim evaluation period and earned a full year to show us what he's capable of. No more, no less.

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  32. #70

    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Not what I'm saying. To expand on what UB commented, it is that if THIS coach has so many questions about him that you won't give him more than a year, how come you don't get one of the coaches available who DOESN'T have those questions?

    I feel like people are saying that there isn't a single coach out there they completely trust to take this team to the next level, so let's try one on and potentially waste a year.

    I suppose there's an element of "we think Vogel is the best coaching choice out there and we're doing the short contract because he'll let us" going on, but I think it means that we just aren't quite sure. There are other options besides Brown, who is basically Vogel with more HC experience (and some serious dues dealing with LBJ), and I'd think that there would be one of them who can be trusted to get these guys prepped for contention.
    Because this coach has the possibility of being the best coach out there for this team, but because of his limited experience..and because the Pacers are able to short change him, they are going to.

    Honestly, it's really simple. Why spend more than you have to? Bird likes Vogel. Vogel earned the job. And we can get Vogel for very cheap for very few years. It's exactly what I would do if I was part of the FO. If he's just as good next season, then you sign him up for longer.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    And New Orleans also have Chris Paul. Not to bust your bubble...

    The previous coach had CP3 too, and I notice they aren't there now. The point is Monty Williams with no HC experiece didn't sign a 1 year contract and it has worked out well.

  35. #72

    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Jose,

    1) Larry Bird vs.... Frank Vogel. I mean, I love Vogel too, he's a great story, but we're talking Larry... Bird. And not a Bird 19 years removed from his playing days --- Bird about 5 years removed from retiring from a stellar career.

    One of the greatest players in history... vs. some unknown guy from New Jersey who got the job because his boss got fired. Bird could command those numbers on ratings, alone. Just standing on the sideline. And Bird didn't disappoint... he went 148-67 in his 3-year tenure, all 3 being playoff appearances and some of our most impressive playoff drives, including the Finals.

    And in those 3 years as HC what did Bird coach, the O or the D? He didn't coach either one! Carlisle coached the O and Harter the D. In time outs, you use to see Carlisle laying out the plan NOT Bird. Bird at best was a supervisor wise enough to surround himself with good people to do the coaching. He got paid for the title while Carlisle and Harter did the coaching. There is a reason why Bird hired Carlisle as HC and brought back Harter for "D". He knew who coached the team when he had the title of HC.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    [QUOTE=Kid Minneapolis;1236789]

    But again --- the "dating period" has been too short for me to drop down on one knee and ask him to marry me. He's worth a "promise ring", though...
    /QUOTE]


    LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the laugh.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't give a wit about Vogel's feelings. It has nothing to do with that. I'd rather have Brown anyways.

    My point is I don't care if they hire the local 8th grade CYO coach you do not give a coach a 1 year contract. It is laughable they would even consider such a thing.

    Coaching good or bad is not a fluke, and if Bird is concerned about Vogel to that degree, then he needs to hire someone else.

    And I am utterly shocked that any of you think a 1 year contract is perfectly fine.
    Why because we don't have some preconception that you must give a coach a 3 year deal? Or that it is insulting for a coach to not get a 3 year deal? Or because we don't think signing him to only a 1 year deal means the Pacers don't trust him?

    I personally think it is utterly stupid to give a coach a contract at all, it just doesn't make business sense.

  39. #75

    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I personally think it is utterly stupid to give a coach a contract at all, it just doesn't make business sense.

    W/o a contract the coach can walk at any given time in the season to take a better coaching position. How does that work when you have a team who likes the coach only to have to learn another coaches system? That could really hurt a team's progress, even playoff bid. I just have to disagree. I feel a contract is necessary. Contracts spell everything out, so there are no misunderstandings later. I'm a FIRM believer in contracts, I want my services in writing!! It eliminates future misunderstandings of who said or didn't say what.

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