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Thread: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Ok he won't get Doc Rivers cash, so why not five him a two year deal?

    I can't see him getting over 2.5M a season.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Can coaches get contracts with team options? I definitely think that would be best, with maybe only a one-year guaranteed deal. I get the worries over the deal, but I wonder if people read into it too much.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I posted my comments on this over the weekend

    If the pacers only offer him a 1 year deal that is insulting, and a terrible decision. One of the worst since I've been following the Pacers. Might as well keep the interim tag
    Isn't a one year contract and interim tag the same thing?

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    How can it be assumed that because we go with an unproven guy and a 1-year contract that we'll "risk staying the same or even taking a step back over what remains of the next season after the lockout"? You risk that with even a proven coach. JOB was "proven", for an example. You could just as easily assume that Vogel becomes Coach of the Year and we win a championship. There's absolutely nothing guaranteed.
    So you are seriously saying that a coach with a 43-game track record has the same number of questions about his abilities as a coach with multiple years?

    But that is actually beside the point. Let's just use Frank himself as if no other coach has any probability of being any better.

    What I'm arguing here is that if you think he is NOT a risk to stay the same or take a step back, why are you only giving him a one year contract? If you think he might not "keep this up", why are you hiring him to coach a young team unless you think that a year of "not keeping this up" won't matter?

    The hiring of a coach isn't in a vacuum, and the fact we have a young team has GOT to be part of the equation.
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    I'm with Kid Minneapolis on this one. The guy is young. You don't give a seriously inexperienced coach a long-term deal with such a little evaluation period when the team finally has a chance of turning the corner. I would view the one-year deal as a very wise business decision. Basically, if he ends up not being what we thought he was, we have one do-over before our team enters their collective prime. I'll take Vogal having to prove himself over what we just went through with JOB. And who knows, it may make him work harder. Players working for a contract often work harder than someone who just signed a long-term deal. Why not coaches too?

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  7. #31

    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    I don't think a one year deal is that big of a deal.

    He seems like a good pick (Vogel) and certainly earned the job. But at the same time he is pretty unproven and we don't want our players taking a step back (Like Granger did under JOB in these last couple of years)

    He proves himself, he gets a longer contract. He doesn't, we can let him go. I look at this as more of an extended audition.

    And I don't see the problem with it. It's not like this team can possibly do anything better than fifth seed next season, regardless of what coach. So testing the waters to see if we have a really good one, while having a safety net just in case he isn't, makes sense.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    I'm not getting this. It isn't like a player, where you essentially sign him or let him go, so you sign him for a small amount/short contract and see what you've got.

    This is a coach, where you can sign him or sign someone you think is better. If we only think this coach is good enough to sign for a year to "see what we have", doesn't that mean there isn't a single one of the current other choices we think could be better than that?

    I mean, suppose you sign Vogel and the team implodes again next year. How does that affect the young guys, the fans, and the perception of Bird? Yes, I understand that a coach with a lot of experience isn't guaranteed to do better, but you have a much better body of work to base your expectations on.

    Understand that I'm OK with signing Frank, but I agree with UB - if you are so unsure of his ability that you only sign him for a year, then there is DEFINITELY a better coach for you out there - go get him.

    Now, if no one else will take the job, sign Vogel for a year - but what does that say?
    BillS

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  11. #33

    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I'm not getting this. It isn't like a player, where you essentially sign him or let him go, so you sign him for a small amount/short contract and see what you've got.

    This is a coach, where you can sign him or sign someone you think is better. If we only think this coach is good enough to sign for a year to "see what we have", doesn't that mean there isn't a single one of the current other choices we think could be better than that?

    I mean, suppose you sign Vogel and the team implodes again next year. How does that affect the young guys, the fans, and the perception of Bird? Yes, I understand that a coach with a lot of experience isn't guaranteed to do better, but you have a much better body of work to base your expectations on.

    Understand that I'm OK with signing Frank, but I agree with UB - if you are so unsure of his ability that you only sign him for a year, then there is DEFINITELY a better coach for you out there - go get him.

    Now, if no one else will take the job, sign Vogel for a year - but what does that say?
    Because you can think Vogel is the correct guy for the job, but be unsure because of all the questions about his experience.

    All they are doing, is watching their butt.

    He does a good job next year, my guess is he gets a 3 year contract.

    I don't really see the big deal. A one year contract of a head coach isn't going to say anything to a bunch of players that like the coach and want him to be there.

  12. #34

    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    A one year offer is something that I'd make if I wasn't serious about having him as a coach. That way not returning is his decision, not mine.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    One year is good deal. It gives us an opportunity to make sure his 40-game record wasn't a fluke. If he does a good job with a "full" offseason and roster improvements, then we can easily resign him for longer. Coaches, unlike players, normally don't switch teams due to money. It's not like we're going to be in situation where we offer him $2MIL/YR and another team offer him $7MIL/YR.

    As a side note, I just don't see that many teams going offer him this season. No matter how you present the facts, Vogel IS a coach without that much experience.

  14. #36
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Anybody think Larry Bird would have accepted a one year deal for his first (and only) coaching contract? IIRC he had no record as a coach when the Pacers hired him to coach the team.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by thewholefnshow31 View Post
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    A one year deal could really backfire on us as well. Lets say he does sign a one year deal and then has this team take another step forward and we actually get the 5th or 6th seed or even win a series.
    If this happens he will get a multi-year extension before the playoffs start to ensure he doesn't go anywhere.
    A healthy man takes a crap every day. A smart man does it on company time.

  16. #38

    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by HickeyS2000 View Post
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    The guy is young. You don't give a seriously inexperienced coach a long-term deal

    Tell that to New Orleans! Monty Williams had no HC experience. He did fine, but I never had a doubt since he was my pick last year for the Pacers. AND I take him in a heartbeat over Vogel.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Tell that to New Orleans! Monty Williams had no HC experience. He did fine, but I never had a doubt since he was my pick last year for the Pacers. AND I take him in a heartbeat over Vogel.
    And New Orleans also have Chris Paul. Not to bust your bubble...

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    I don't think giving a coach (in this situation) a one year deal is the right thing to do. Larry and co. better make sure that whoever they hire they are comfortable with for the next 3 years or so.

    Now is the time to get a coach for the next 3 years. There will almost always be up and coming assistants who deserve to be a head coach but if the Pacers want experience (and don't want to go with Vogel) you have Mike Brown and Rick Adelman available assuming either would be interested in the Pacers job. It terms of coachings who have proven themselves you won't find find those guys every year.

  20. #41

    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    This seems pretty straight forward. Vogel did a pretty good job. But there were big question marks about his ability to control a team. The problems with players not getting to practice on time, not working hard and not taking practice seriously. These are evidently big red flags in Bird's mind. Giving Frank a year to prove himself and prove he can control a team is the result. This is like a geometry logic exercise. Frank will get a long term contract if and only if he shows he can control the team. Larry eveidently doesn't want to be a GM and part-time coach.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Just because it is tradition to give a new coach a 3 year deal does not make it the right thing to do. In fact to do something only based on tradition is going to be a bad idea more times than not. If anything is the right thing to do, don't even give him a contract based on years. Tell him, "This is your job as long as you perform up to expectations." Just like any normal job.

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    I don't read anything into this at all except good move all around. Give Vogel a full season to fully prove himself and avoid a longer than necessary deal if it ends up not working out for whatever reason... even if Bird does want Vogel to succeed and be the longterm coach, still a smart move.

    As a coach you should probably be focusing on one season at a time anyways. Hopefully, if Vogel eventually gets a longer contract he'll make even more money because of how well he did in 2011-2012.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    A one year offer is something that I'd make if I wasn't serious about having him as a coach.
    Sure, unless you are banking on no other team hiring him as their head coach. I'm sure tons of other teams would love to have him as an assistant. Head coach? I'm pretty confident we are the only team he has a realistic chance at that position. Remember, 40 games as a HC, a couple as an assistant and a few as a video guy is not a strong resume considering the coaches available.

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  26. #45
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Again, for the "only give him a year" advocates - there isn't a single other coach out there you have more confidence in than a coach that you aren't confident enough to give more than a one year deal to?

    And you think if he turns out to be a coach not worth renewing a full season it has no repercussions at all, it's just an "oh, well, let's get another coach since we only invested a year" situation?

    This just smacks of "well, we HAVE to hire Vogel, so let's only give him a year just in case."

    Otherwise, what is it you are afraid will happen if he gets a 3-year contract, and why do you think it won't matter if it only happens for a year?
    BillS

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I don't think it's insulting, and I don't think it's a terrible decision. He's unproven.

    I bet it ends up being a 2-3 year, with options, anyway...
    Sorry, I have not read the entire thread yet but wanted to comment on this.

    Kid, 99 times out of 100 I get what your saying, if not flat out agree with you but this time.... I don't think so.

    Vogel has been in the coaching ranks for almost 10 years. Maybe not as a head coach but, on the bench.

    Larry Bird had zero bench time when he signed on & he got a 3 year deal.

    No way does he get offered a one year make or break deal.

    EDIT: Shout out to Grace for beating me to the punch
    Last edited by Jose Slaughter; 05-17-2011 at 08:46 PM.

  28. #47

    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by HickeyS2000 View Post
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    Remember, 40 games as a HC, a couple as an assistant and a few as a video guy is not a strong resume considering the coaches available.
    Well, it's a little more than that.

    4 as the video guy, 2 as a scout and 8 as an assistant.

    Look up Brown's bio. Damn near the same.

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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Well, it's a little more than that.

    4 as the video guy, 2 as a scout and 8 as an assistant.

    Look up Brown's bio. Damn near the same.
    except Brown had much stronger one because he coached good teams and made them play good defense as an assit. Vogel wasnt even lead assit like Brown was.

  30. #49
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    Sorry, I have not read the entire thread yet but wanted to comment on this.

    Kid, 99 times out of 100 I get what your saying, if not flat out agree with you but this time.... I don't think so.

    Vogel has been in the coaching ranks for almost 10 years. Maybe not as a head coach but, on the bench.

    Larry Bird had zero bench time when he signed on & he got a 3 year deal.

    No way does he get offered a one year make or break deal.

    EDIT: Shout out to Grace for beating me to the punch
    Jose,

    1) Larry Bird vs.... Frank Vogel. I mean, I love Vogel too, he's a great story, but we're talking Larry... Bird. And not a Bird 19 years removed from his playing days --- Bird about 5 years removed from retiring from a stellar career.

    One of the greatest players in history... vs. some unknown guy from New Jersey who got the job because his boss got fired. Bird could command those numbers on ratings, alone. Just standing on the sideline. And Bird didn't disappoint... he went 148-67 in his 3-year tenure, all 3 being playoff appearances and some of our most impressive playoff drives, including the Finals.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 05-17-2011 at 09:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Vogel to only get 1 year contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    What I'm arguing here is that if you think he is NOT a risk to stay the same or take a step back, why are you only giving him a one year contract? If you think he might not "keep this up", why are you hiring him to coach a young team unless you think that a year of "not keeping this up" won't matter?
    Because neither of those bolded scenarios are true for me. I do think he's a risk. I also think he could keep it up. He's unknown. It's a gamble right now, one that I'm personally willing to put my support behind, however, but for the right price. I'm willing to put my support behind it due to traits that he's exhibited that I highly value. But again --- the "dating period" has been too short for me to drop down on one knee and ask him to marry me. He's worth a "promise ring", though...

    Make him prove it for a year, and if he does, then throw him the $$$ and security. 1-year, or a multi-year with options, is what I consider a good business decision right now. Mindlessly throwing him a 3-year guarantee is just silly, if the only purpose is "sending a message".
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 05-17-2011 at 09:53 PM.
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