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Thread: Details on latest cba proposal

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    A Hill to get over a hill Richard_Skull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Is it just me, or does anyone else get the feeling that a hardcap will actually hurt us?
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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    I think the players' concession is to reduce their 57% share of BRI to 51%, which represents a $200-300m reduction in player salaries.
    Pretty significant.

    That would average out to almost 10mil per team.
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  3. #28
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    I see your point but the rollbacks on existing contracts are unlikely to be really significant. The significant changes will be on future contracts. No one agrees to significant cuts in their salaries but will agree to cuts in contracts that aren't negotiated. In other words players are counting on the money they think is owed to them. But we may be talking about different aspects of the proposal after all.
    Cuts to previously negotiated contracts are exactly what the owners are pushing for. And they're pretty substantial cuts. See the source article:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Sources said the owners' latest proposal, however, does still call for immediate rollbacks of 15 percent, 20 percent or 25 percent to current contracts depending on salary levels, as part of the league's oft-stated desire to reduce payroll by roughly $800 million leaguewide on an annual basis.
    I agree with you though that it would be a very tough pill for the players to swallow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Skull View Post
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    Is it just me, or does anyone else get the feeling that a hardcap will actually hurt us?
    Nope, it's not just you. There was some discussion on that recently.

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=64193

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Skull View Post
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    Is it just me, or does anyone else get the feeling that a hardcap will actually hurt us?

    While I don't see a hard cap as a fix for everything that's wrong with the competitive landscape in the NBA, I don't see how it can hurt and it's a step in the right direction. The rich may get financially richer, but they won't get richer with talent. A low hard cap makes it all but impossible for a single team to bring in multiple superstars like the Heat just did. You can argue that the big 3 took less then the max but it wasn't much less. There is no way that any superstar is going to take a major pay cut just to go join forces with another star in a preferred market. No longer can 3 players split the entire cap and then have a team go over that cap with exceptions to bring in the remaining 12 players. If the hard cap is low enough I doubt if you'll ever see 2 superstars join forces again and I'm happy with that.
    The lower the hard cap, the better it is for the Pacers to compete. Throw in a few more clauses like the semi-franchise tag and we're getting closer to parity and level playing field.

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Skull View Post
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    Is it just me, or does anyone else get the feeling that a hardcap will actually hurt us?
    The argument is that the non-salary benefits of the big markets will be hard for small market teams to counter under a hard cap. I can accept this, which is why I think a hard cap alone is not the answer.

    However, under a hard cap even the big markets can't stockpile superstars unless they are taking significant pay cuts (not just cosmetic ones), so that helps the distribution of stars across the league and improves parity.

    The answer, then, in my mind, is that small markets won't be able to keep the very biggest stars under the hard cap alone, but they'll be more likely to have low-end top tier or high-end second tier stars than they would be under a continuation of the LT.
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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    However, under a hard cap even the big markets can't stockpile superstars unless they are taking significant pay cuts (not just cosmetic ones), so that helps the distribution of stars across the league and improves parity.

    The answer, then, in my mind, is that small markets won't be able to keep the very biggest stars under the hard cap alone, but they'll be more likely to have low-end top tier or high-end second tier stars than they would be under a continuation of the LT.
    This is why I think the hard cap works. IF you can't do the MLE signings then even old fading stars won't run to the Bostons and the Lakers of the League. They will have to do what Bibby did and play for under a mill. That being said I can't see too many players droping taking a substantial salary cut.

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal


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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by MyFavMartin View Post
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    I wonder if the players' union is pushing for a minimum salary level (basement cap) to compensate for the hard cap?
    I think there is one already in place. I would doubt it would be done away with entirely. Possibly reduced?

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Well done and thorough as always.

    I like the phrase "competitive balance" and will try to use it rather than "parity" in order to show that equal results aren't the goal, equal playing field is.
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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I'm glad we have to wait until the new cba is in place to spend any of our cap space. Changes like this give the Pacers a lot to consider before spending and may create a lot of opportunities that we didn't expect to be there.
    We could make a trade right now if we wanted to.

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Sources said the owners' latest proposal, however, does still call for immediate rollbacks of 15 percent, 20 percent or 25 percent to current contracts depending on salary levels, as part of the league's oft-stated desire to reduce payroll by roughly $800 million leaguewide on an annual basis.
    This is interesting to me. The current MLE, or the average NBA player salary, was 5.765M for 2010/2011. Not really knowing the total of all player salaries, I calculate a ballpark figure of 5.765M x 30 teams x 15 players/team, or approximately 2594.25M. A reduction of 800M from this total amount would represent about 30.8% of the total of all salaries.

    So, an immediate rollback of 15, 20 and 25 percent would reduce the salary expenditure, and lower salary cap, among other things, would be used to further reduce salaries to obtain the entire 30% needed.

    I agree with Wintermute's assessment that a salary rollback combined with an amnesty program is probably not in the best interest of the Pacers in their efforts to improve the quality of their roster.

    The rollback will probably result in fewer teams being desperate to get under the new salary cap. The amnesty program will have a similar result. The two together will probably result in more teams being under the salary cap far enough to provide competition with the Pacers in being able to make trades or absorb additional salary.

    The Pacers are in a position to be financially healthier through their patience in reducing salary. That financial health will be affected in a positive way by a salary rollback. I think it is very unfortunate that while achieving better financial health that the Pacers will probably be negatively affected by the new CBA in attempts to improve their roster.
    Last edited by beast23; 05-13-2011 at 09:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    But the biggest name, and the most surprising name to many people, will be Brandon Roy. I don't see any way the Blazers can justify keeping him with his contract, his knees, and the backup options they have on the roster (Wallace, Batum, Matthews, and Fernandez).
    If that's the case, I hope the Pacers swoop him up immediately! He'll probably sign with NY or NJ since they'll have plenty of cap space and the NY metropolitan area to offer.

    At least the Pacers could give Posey the ax. An Amnesty rule is going to have to go into effect. I don't see how a hard cap is possible without this.

    The players have a right to oppose this. This deal would probably work out okay for the superstars of the league but the veteran players are going to be really hurt by this. Why would any team sign an aging former All-Star for more than the veteran minimum when they have a hard cap to worry about?

    Guys that would've received the MLE or partial MLE money will be getting nothing but offers for the vet minimum. That could help the Pacers or it could hurt them in a few years when they are on level footing (salary cap-wise) with the super teams. If a vet can get the same money in Miami that he's getting in Indy, why choose Indy if they are both interested? It could hurt as much as it helps.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Tim,

    I really enjoyed your blog and might I say it was very Larry Coonish.

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    It's good to see you posting again. That's the best article I've read yet on the subject, very well done Count.

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    We could make a trade right now if we wanted to.
    Thought trades didn't open up again until after the playoffs.
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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Thought trades didn't open up again until after the playoffs.
    The only teams that can't make trades are Dallas, Miami, Chicago, Oklahoma City, and Memphis. And in 4 hours, you could take Memphis off the list.

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Thought trades didn't open up again until after the playoffs.
    Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO.
    http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q88

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Guess I can put this here. "Revisiting 'The Greatest Sports Deal of All Time'". About the agreement from the 4 ABA teams with the St. Louis owners. Very extensive and worth a read.

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    The only teams that can't make trades are Dallas, Miami, Chicago, Oklahoma City, and Memphis. And in 4 hours, you could take Memphis off the list.

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    I have a friend who is a devout Pacers fan that I have never been able to pursuade to join our forum. In a conversation earlier today, we both discussed the CBA and like many on here, agreed that a salary rollback and the amnesty provision would not do anything to help the Pacers. We both like the hard salary cap, but rollback and amnesty would take some of the sting out of the hard cap for the upper echelon teams since they would probably get rid of a highly paid player that was no performing up to par.

    Then my friend made a suggestion that might help put a little bite back into amnesty. His idea was to include amnesty, but to also take away the team's first available first round draft choice if they got rid of a player whose salary was above the MLE.

    Any thoughts?

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    Then my friend made a suggestion that might help put a little bite back into amnesty. His idea was to include amnesty, but to also take away the team's first available first round draft choice if they got rid of a player whose salary was above the MLE.

    Any thoughts?
    Not sure I like that. It penalizes the weaker teams by forcing them to give up lottery picks, while the strong teams merely give up a lowly first rounder. And what happens if teams have either multiple picks or no picks at all? It doesn't seem workable.

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    I just have a bad feeling that whatever gets decided is going to go against the value the Pacers & Kings have spent the last few years developing. If a hard cap is what comes out of the CBA... I'm assured the league will throw a bone to the 28 other teams that are over the cap! At the end of the day, teams like Memphis, NY & Dallas that took on an obnoxious amount of salary could get a better reward than teams like the Pacers and Kings that just spent years trying to get from underneath such a rock!

    I don't have any faith in the league doing the Pacers or Kings any "solids" for trying to do it the right way!
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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    I don't have any faith in the league doing the Pacers or Kings any "solids" for trying to do it the right way!
    The right way? What's the "right way"? Is what Oklahoma City did the "right way"? What about Miami? Dallas? Chicago? Memphis? Could you please enlighten me on what the "right way" is?

    Whatever the "right way" is, I'm pretty sure whatever the Kings are doing isn't the "right way". Unless the "right way" is being the cheapest team in the league. I guess the Pittsburgh Pirates have doing things the "right way" for years in Major League Baseball.

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    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    The right way? What's the "right way"? Is what Oklahoma City did the "right way"? What about Miami? Dallas? Chicago? Memphis? Could you please enlighten me on what the "right way" is?

    Whatever the "right way" is, I'm pretty sure whatever the Kings are doing isn't the "right way". Unless the "right way" is being the cheapest team in the league. I guess the Pittsburgh Pirates have doing things the "right way" for years in Major League Baseball.
    Maybe saying the "right way" is overstating my opinion, but I personally feel that spending till your knees bend knowing that your going into a new CBA where the rules on the salary cap & tax system are likely to change due to 28 other teams being in the same boat "seems" to be more like circumventing the system.

    BUT, THAT IS JUST MY OPINION!!!

    Anyway, I don't see what the Pittsburgh Pirates have to do with the Pacers making trades and letting bad contracts expire to be able to be a player in the FA market or make favorable trades.
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