Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 60

Thread: Details on latest cba proposal

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Dillon, Co
    Posts
    3,917

    Default Details on latest cba proposal

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6530352

    The proposal from NBA owners that the NBA Players Association rejected last week called for the implementation of a hard salary cap at a figure lower than the league's current cap, but not until the 2013-14 season, according to sources familiar with the offer.


    Sources told ESPN.com this week that the central change made by owners to past collective bargaining proposals called for easing in a more restrictive financial landscape over a three-season cycle as opposed to trying to impose a hard salary ceiling with immediate effect next season.


    The league, sources said, regards this as a major concession, since the next two seasons would employ a salary-cap system with luxury-tax penalties not unlike the system currently in place. Teams currently operate with a salary cap of $58 million per franchise, with a dollar-for-dollar luxury tax imposed for every dollar teams spend over the tax threshold of $70.3 million.


    Sources said the owners' latest proposal, however, does still call for immediate rollbacks of 15 percent, 20 percent or 25 percent to current contracts depending on salary levels, as part of the league's oft-stated desire to reduce payroll by roughly $800 million leaguewide on an annual basis.


    The NBA's ongoing push for such sharp salary reductions, sources said, is what caused the quick rejection from the players' side, with the union also still determined to oppose a hard cap.


    The NBA, sources said, likewise hopes to implement even lower salaries for rookies than they currently make based off the league's rookie scale The league also would like to propose new rules that make it hugely advantageous for marquee players to stay with the teams that draft them.


    The new rules would grant teams the ability to offer even more years and dollars to a designated "star" player than current rules allow, heeding the clamor from various small-market teams for such a measure after last summer's free-agent defections of LeBron James and Chris Bosh to Miami and the trades that sent Carmelo Anthony to New York and Deron Williams to New Jersey.


    An SI.com report Wednesday said that teams, under the NBA's proposal, would not be able to unilaterally "tag" a player to be their designated star, as NFL teams can by using their "franchise tag" to prevent one chosen player from becoming a free agent. Under the NBA's proposal rejected by the union last week, teams would only be able to designate one player for preferential contract treatment if the player agreed to it.


    Another key wrinkle from the rejected proposal, sources said, called for the ability for each team to shed one contract outright before next season through a one-time amnesty provision that wipes that contract off a team's books -- even though the player must still be paid -- reminiscent of a similar provision in the summer of 2005.


    Although the players quickly rejected last week's proposal, sources close to the process have expressed mild optimism about the league's increased willingness to negotiate before the current labor agreement expires June 30.


    ESPN.com's Henry Abbott reported Tuesday that Stern and NBPA executive director Billy Hunter have been quietly meeting face-to-face to negotiate on a fairly regular basis. The sides, sources said, met last week in Chicago with staffers from both sides present. The two sides are also set to talk this week in New York.


    NBA owners are expected to lock out their players on July 1 if there is no new deal before the June 30 deadline. But against a backdrop of labor strife and ongoing legal action in the NFL, representatives of both the NBA and the players' union have recently softened their public rhetoric.
    NBA deputy commissioner Adam Silver said April 15 that the league's goal is "a system in which all 30 teams can compete, and, if they are well-managed, to make a profit. We have never suggested to the union that there's only one way to accomplish that end."


    But players' association president Derek Fisher of the Los Angeles Lakers, explaining the union's quick dismissal of the league's latest offer, told ESPN.com last week: "Unfortunately, the proposal is very similar to the proposal the league submitted over a year ago. This last proposal doesn't look close to what we were expecting."


    The union has pushed for a revenue deal similar to the current one, with Hunter insisting that a hard salary cap would effectively end guaranteed contracts, which he calls "the lifeblood" of professional basketball.


    "We've had that right for years, and it's not something we're trying to give up," Hunter has said.


    The league recently announced that, in addition to soaring TV ratings this season, 2010-2011 ticket sales were up roughly one percent. The union contends that the league's recent surge in popularity might have wiped out the losses caused by the recent recession, but league officials say that their overall loss has been reduced only from $340 million last season to $300 million this season, asserting that 22 of the NBA's 30 teams are losing money.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Pacerized For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Yeah, I'm a Pacers fan. MyFavMartin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    In the Washington DC area
    Posts
    4,302
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    I wonder if the players' union is pushing for a minimum salary level (basement cap) to compensate for the hard cap?

  4. #3
    Member Manguera's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    SoFla
    Posts
    104

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Have the players come up with ANY proposals? I'm asking because myabe they have but I haven't seen them. So far all I've seen is proposals by the league that are rejected by the players.
    A healthy man takes a crap every day. A smart man does it on company time.

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Manguera For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Dillon, Co
    Posts
    3,917

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    I haven't seen this posted yet.
    I like the idea of the cap being lower then the current soft cap instead of the LT threshold. IMO the lower the cap, the easier it will be to compete for players and the harder is will be for deep pocket teams to stockpile multiple superstars.
    I don't see players salaries getting rolled back as proposed.
    If the cap takes 2 years to implement that changes they way we need to look at our current cap space.
    The amnesty clause is something I thought they'd offer to get teams under the cap quicker. We could see a lot of bargains floating around at the start of the season if this happens.
    I know these are only proposals and none of these proposals may make it into the next cba. I'm glad we have to wait until the new cba is in place to spend any of our cap space. Changes like this give the Pacers a lot to consider before spending and may create a lot of opportunities that we didn't expect to be there.

  7. #5
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    7,404

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    What do the players think about the 22 of 30 NBA teams losing money? What do the players expect that they would have to give up going into this deal. Do they really think it should all go on business as usual?

    At some point there has to be a collective recognition that the league is not sustainable the way they like it.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to graphic-er For This Useful Post:


  9. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Dillon, Co
    Posts
    3,917

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    If a cap like this makes it in and player salary rollbacks don't then Miami would be playing 3 on 5 by the 13/14 season since the big 3 combine for 58 million at that point. Obviously they'd have to be broken up in that scenerio.
    Whatever happens I think any reduction to a hard salary cap will result in an Amnesty player clause. I wouldn't expect any all stars to be waived but some teams may be forced to trade away some great talent, and you could see some starting quality players available. I can't remember how it worked that last time with the Allan Houston rule. Where waived players available for the vet min. to their new team?

  10. #7
    Yeah, I'm a Pacers fan. MyFavMartin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    In the Washington DC area
    Posts
    4,302
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Young talent on rookie contracts and cap space become more valuable.

  11. #8
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,228

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Manguera View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Have the players come up with ANY proposals? I'm asking because myabe they have but I haven't seen them. So far all I've seen is proposals by the league that are rejected by the players.
    There haven't been that many proposals actually. This is the same one that has been reported before. There have been 2 formal offers from the owners, and one counter proposal from the players. Unsurprisingly, the players' proposal is to keep the current system in place. I think the players' concession is to reduce their 57% share of BRI to 51%, which represents a $200-300m reduction in player salaries. The owners however are looking for cutbacks of ~$800m, as well as a new system in place (hard cap, unguaranteed contracts, etc). It's pretty clear that closing the gap on this isn't going to be easy.

    As far as the Pacers are concerned, salary rollbacks and amnesty clauses wouldn't benefit us at all. We've gone through 3 painful years of housecleaning, and as a result we're fresh out of overpaid players. If anything, an amnesty clause helps the teams in cap hell that we were planning to take advantage of in uneven trades.

    It's true though that an amnesty clause could add a few quality free agents to the market, like Michael Finley the last time there was an amnesty clause. More likely though, it will be the likes of Rashard Lewis, Gilbert Arenas, Baron Davis.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to wintermute For This Useful Post:


  13. #9
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,228

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Just for interest, this is the list of amnesty players from 2005

    http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q18

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Coon
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Although the amnesty provision was informally referred to as the "Allan Houston provision," the Knicks chose not to use it on Houston. The actual list of players on whom the amnesty provision was used is (* = players who were previously waived): Derek Anderson (Blazers), Vin Baker* (Celtics), Troy Bell* (Grizzlies), Calvin Booth (Bucks), Doug Christie (Magic), Derrick Coleman* (Pistons), Howard Eisley* (Suns), Michael Finley (Mavericks), Brian Grant (Lakers), Fred Hoiberg (Timberwolves), Aaron McKie (76ers), Ron Mercer (Nets), Reggie Miller* (Pacers), Alonzo Mourning* (Raptors), Wesley Person* (Heat), Eddie Robinson* (Bulls), Clarence Weatherspoon (Rockets), Jerome Williams (Knicks). The Bobcats, Cavs, Clippers, Hawks, Hornets, Jazz, Kings, Nuggets, Sonics, Spurs, Warriors and Wizards did not utilize this provision.
    Yes, the Pacers waived Reggie Miller, but he had retired by then. In fact, most teams chose to use the amnesty rule on previously waived players. Finley was the best I think among the amnesty casualties.

  14. #10
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    55
    Posts
    11,549

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    What do the players think about the 22 of 30 NBA teams losing money? What do the players expect that they would have to give up going into this deal. Do they really think it should all go on business as usual?

    At some point there has to be a collective recognition that the league is not sustainable the way they like it.
    At this point the players are on record as believing the losses are paper (depreciation) or involving expenses unrelated to operations (interest on loans for purchasing the franchise).

    I suspect the toughness from the owners is about to dissipate in a blast of sound and fury, signifying nothing, as we go forward essentially unchanged into the brave new world of 4-6 super teams and 24-26 Washington Generals.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BillS For This Useful Post:


  16. #11

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    The player's willingness to cut back the player share of the BRI from 57% to 51% is a good sign. That seems to indicate the disagreement is not about whether to cut the player share, but how much to cut. Something like that would reduce the salary cap to about $50M, the luxury tax level to $60M.

    I expect something close to those numbers as the final settlement. A salary cap of about $50M with the luxury tax starting imediately. and a hard cap of between $60M and $70M. In either case, teams with big salaries will have to cut guys to get under the new hard cap.

    that soft-cap/hard-cap arrangement will allow the continuation of exceptions like the MLE, but only up to a certain amount. Players want the exceptions to avoid having teams with 3 max salaries and 10 minimum salaries. The immediate luxury tax provides a kind of revenue sharing that the NBAPA wants in the contract.

    Pacers [and other teams under the $50M salary cap number should be able to get some good players for cheap.

  17. #12
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Garrett, IN
    Posts
    9,077
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    We have to understand why the teams are losing 300m. Is it a couple losing 40% of that number? Or is it that of the 22 teams losing money 80% average the same amount, making up 90% of the losses?

    If it is the former, I seriously doubt the players are responsible for poor management. If it is the latter then the players need to concede a little more.

  18. #13
    Member Speed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brownsburg
    Posts
    8,525

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    As far as the Pacers are concerned, salary rollbacks and amnesty clauses wouldn't benefit us at all. We've gone through 3 painful years of housecleaning, and as a result we're fresh out of overpaid players. If anything, an amnesty clause helps the teams in cap hell that we were planning to take advantage of in uneven trades.
    QFT. Thanks league, one year too late.

  19. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Speed For This Useful Post:


  20. #14
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Northside Bias
    Posts
    12,959

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by MyFavMartin View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I wonder if the players' union is pushing for a minimum salary level (basement cap) to compensate for the hard cap?
    There already is one, at $44M. Any team under that amount has to pay their roster the difference, as the Kings had to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    We have to understand why the teams are losing 300m. Is it a couple losing 40% of that number? Or is it that of the 22 teams losing money 80% average the same amount, making up 90% of the losses?

    If it is the former, I seriously doubt the players are responsible for poor management. If it is the latter then the players need to concede a little more.
    I don't know about the other teams, but the Pacers claimed $30M in losses during the CIB negotiations.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  21. The Following User Says Thank You to Kegboy For This Useful Post:


  22. #15
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,228

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    We have to understand why the teams are losing 300m. Is it a couple losing 40% of that number? Or is it that of the 22 teams losing money 80% average the same amount, making up 90% of the losses?
    The NBA doesn't release this info, but Forbes does have an independent estimate:

    http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/32/...s-11_rank.html

    Check out the operating income column. These figures don't include depreciation or loan servicing though, which the league apparently includes in its calculations.

    And yes, the depreciation/loan costs are a pretty large component, because adding up Forbes' figures gives a $180m profit, versus the $300m loss the league is claiming.

  23. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Dillon, Co
    Posts
    3,917

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    As far as the Pacers are concerned, salary rollbacks and amnesty clauses wouldn't benefit us at all. We've gone through 3 painful years of housecleaning, and as a result we're fresh out of overpaid players. If anything, an amnesty clause helps the teams in cap hell that we were planning to take advantage of in uneven trades.

    It's true though that an amnesty clause could add a few quality free agents to the market, like Michael Finley the last time there was an amnesty clause. More likely though, it will be the likes of Rashard Lewis, Gilbert Arenas, Baron Davis.
    Good point on the negative side of the amnesty clause. I think you're on target with the 3 waived players and that's the type of players that will be waived first. Of course we'd still be able to waive Posey and get further under the new cap. While waiving a player now would completely bail out some teams, many would still need to move more long term contracts to get to the hard cap, they'd just have 2 years to make it happen. In a case like Miami I wouldn't see them waiving any of the big 3, but they'd know they have to move one of them within the 2 year window. I'd be interested in knowing if they'd be able to use any exceptions to add players during that window as long as they were over the cap or if we'd be allowed to go over the cap during that window if we wanted to.
    No matter how you look at it, our cap space will have more value but we may want to hold onto it for an additional year.

  24. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    South Side
    Posts
    4,161

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    When figuring teams potential cap room next season, you'll need to figure in an amnesty provision. I'll be shocked if there's not one in the new CBA.

    You could call it the Gilbert Arenas provision or the Rashard Lewis provision. Both will be waived using this. Other candidates include Baron Davis, Richard Hamilton, Travis Outlaw, Josh Childress, Nate Robinson, James Posey, Andres Nocioni, and Luke Walton. But the biggest name, and the most surprising name to many people, will be Brandon Roy. I don't see any way the Blazers can justify keeping him with his contract, his knees, and the backup options they have on the roster (Wallace, Batum, Matthews, and Fernandez).

  25. #18

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    The amnesty provision is likely related to the tax. It's not very clear here, but it would probably be just like the one in 2005, which only removed the salary from the tax calculation.

    It is very unlikely that it will be used so that teams can add cap room, and teams that are under the tax (like the Pacers) would have no use for it at all, as you still have to pay the player.

  26. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Dillon, Co
    Posts
    3,917

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    If the hard cap doesn't take effect until the 13/14 season, it might not make sense to waive a player who expires prior to that. Arenas is almost certain to be waived since he'll make over 22 mil in the 13/14 season but the Wizards might want to waive someone other then Lewis since his contract doesn't run that long. A team like the Pacers who doesn't have anyone under contract that far out that they'd want to waive might as well waive Posey unless they see more value in his expiring contract. You may be right about Brandon Roy who is due almost 18 mil in the 13/14 season.

  27. #20

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    As far as the Pacers are concerned, salary rollbacks and amnesty clauses wouldn't benefit us at all. We've gone through 3 painful years of housecleaning, and as a result we're fresh out of overpaid players.
    Of course salary rollbacks will help us just not at this particular time but we can't really keep up with the big boys over the long term.

    For the market we have our salaries should be in the bottom third of nba team salaries. The idea for this team to spend and spend is unsustainable.

    Anyone who wants to see the pacers as competitive as the big market teams has to be in favor of rollbacks. Any owner not named Simon would not tolerate the losses this team incurred over the years.
    Last edited by speakout4; 05-12-2011 at 08:10 PM.

  28. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Dillon, Co
    Posts
    3,917

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    When you look payrolls committed through 13/14 most teams would be able to get under the proposed hard cap by adding a few minimum salary players to fill out their rosters. Most of course would still want to use the waiver or they wouldn't like what they had left to field a team.
    Teams that wouldn't likely be able to do this without a trade or waiver would be.

    Chicago 41.7 mil on 3 players
    Dallas 41.1 mil on 3 players
    Lakers 61.5 mil on 4 players
    Memphis 45.8 mil on 3 players
    Miami 71 mil on 6 players
    NY 43 mil on 2 players
    Orlando 41 mil on 4

    Salaries are 2013/14 payrolls from hoopshype

  29. #22
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,228

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Of course salary rollbacks will help us just not at this particular time but we can't really keep up with the big boys over the long term.

    For the market we have our salaries should be in the bottom third of nba team salaries. The idea for this team to spend and spend is unsustainable.

    Anyone who wants to see the pacers as competitive as the big market teams has to be in favor of rollbacks. Any owner not named Simon would not tolerate the losses this team incurred over the years.
    Nope, you're missing my point. You're talking about future salary commitments.

    The rollbacks being discussed here are on existing salaries. We have literally no bad contracts left on the payroll. Posey maybe, but he's an expiring contract anyway. Only Danny, Dahntay, and Posey are on non-rookie deals. Any rollback we get on their contracts will have minimal effect.
    Last edited by wintermute; 05-12-2011 at 08:39 PM.

  30. #23

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    [QUOTE=wintermute;1234245]Nope, you're missing my point. You're talking about future salary commitments.

    The rollbacks being discussed here are on existing salaries. We have literally no bad contracts left on the payroll. Posey maybe, but he's an expiring contract anyway. Only Danny, Dahntay, and Posey are on non-rookie deals. Any rollback we get on their contracts will have minimal effect.[/QUOTE
    I see your point but the rollbacks on existing contracts are unlikely to be really significant. The significant changes will be on future contracts. No one agrees to significant cuts in their salaries but will agree to cuts in contracts that aren't negotiated. In other words players are counting on the money they think is owed to them. But we may be talking about different aspects of the proposal after all.

  31. #24
    Yeah, I'm a Pacers fan. MyFavMartin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    In the Washington DC area
    Posts
    4,302
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    What resources are constituting the depreciation?

  32. #25
    Yeah, I'm a Pacers fan. MyFavMartin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    In the Washington DC area
    Posts
    4,302
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Details on latest cba proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    There haven't been that many proposals actually. This is the same one that has been reported before. There have been 2 formal offers from the owners, and one counter proposal from the players. Unsurprisingly, the players' proposal is to keep the current system in place. I think the players' concession is to reduce their 57% share of BRI to 51%, which represents a $200-300m reduction in player salaries. The owners however are looking for cutbacks of ~$800m, as well as a new system in place (hard cap, unguaranteed contracts, etc). It's pretty clear that closing the gap on this isn't going to be easy.

    As far as the Pacers are concerned, salary rollbacks and amnesty clauses wouldn't benefit us at all. We've gone through 3 painful years of housecleaning, and as a result we're fresh out of overpaid players. If anything, an amnesty clause helps the teams in cap hell that we were planning to take advantage of in uneven trades.

    It's true though that an amnesty clause could add a few quality free agents to the market, like Michael Finley the last time there was an amnesty clause. More likely though, it will be the likes of Rashard Lewis, Gilbert Arenas, Baron Davis.
    800 million would be an average of 27 million per team. That's some serious cutting and I don't expect the players to allow owners to cut team salaries 33-50%.

Similar Threads

  1. NBA players balk at owners' new CBA proposal [ESPN]
    By RoboHicks in forum NBA Headlines (RSS Feeds)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-04-2011, 04:20 AM
  2. General Growth studying Simon's latest offer
    By 90'sNBARocked in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 04-15-2010, 05:25 PM
  3. Curry optimistic that sides close to tentative proposal
    By Lord Helmet in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-18-2005, 02:42 PM
  4. The latest on the labor situation
    By Unclebuck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 05-28-2005, 11:13 PM
  5. The latest in "Pacers who?"
    By able in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 01-27-2005, 01:11 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •