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Thread: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraft View Post
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    Well, those are his only years as a head coach. I'm not sure what you're expecting.

    This babysitter notion is nonsense. Do people really think they made the Finals with a do-nothing coach? Do people think he won 66 games and was COY by doing nothing in 2008-09?

    It was all LeBron? Really?
    I realize Brown was not their coach this past season, but have you compared Cleveland's record with James vs. their record this year?

    Yeah, he was responsible for a lot of that difference.

    I don't think Mike Brown is a top-five coach by any means, but to discount a guy because he had a star player is ludicrous ... especially when supporting a guy who hasn't coached a full NBA season.

    I like Vogel and Brown, and can understand arguments for both.
    I don't have a problem with Brown, per se. I am curious about what sort of offense and defense he would want to run without a player of James' ability. I seriously have no idea what his philosophies would be.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    George/Dahntay on Rose wasn't a 'brilliant' decision and more of a 'common sense' one?
    Based on size and defensive abilities, I'd say yes.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    If Vogel's only going to get a one year deal, it tells me Bird isn't entirely convinced. If that turns out to be the case, part of the deal needs to be contingent on Vogel hiring an experienced assistant capable of stepping in when things go south.

    If he gets a one year deal, he might as well just keep the interim tag.
    It also could indicate that, while the Pacers need to have a head coach, the organization, from Simon on down to Bird, are not certain what the CBA and lockout will bring, what opportunities and obstacles might arise, and what that might mean to the overall future of the franchise from an ownership standpoint.

    I suspect that, under the circumstances, Vogel would not feel slighted by a one year deal, and might actually appreciate the flexibility and opportunities that might open up for him in the event that

    1) there is a season next year

    and

    2) the Pacers develop further and get additional talent that take them to the next level.

  4. #154
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    I really don't think a 1 year deal says anything about Vogel. I think it says more about JOB and the CBA. Also I kind of hope that this is more of the beginning of a trend in the NBA where coaches are only guaranteed one season at a time.

  5. #155
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    I'd actually love if the Pacers could get Rick Adelman. I've always felt very highly of him. I hope he's at least interviewed.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I really don't think a 1 year deal says anything about Vogel. I think it says more about JOB and the CBA. Also I kind of hope that this is more of the beginning of a trend in the NBA where coaches are only guaranteed one season at a time.
    I don't follow. How does it say anything about JOB?

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    I'll be pissed if they give him only a one year deal. If that is all the confidence they have in Vogel they should hire someone else.

    they might as well keep the interim tag then.

    I would put that in the top 3 dumest things the pacers organization has ever done.

    stupid

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  9. #158
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'll be pissed if they give him only a one year deal. If that is all the confidence they have in Vogel they should hire someone else.

    they might as well keep the interim tag then.

    I would put that in the top 3 dumest things the pacers organization has ever done.

    stupid
    Exactly. Don't put your toe in the water. Don't be a pansy. Be assertive and call the shots. Don't half commit.

    Vogel never half commited. Either sign Vogel to a three year deal or sign Mike Brown to a three year deal. Don't sign a freaking one year deal.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'll be pissed if they give him only a one year deal. If that is all the confidence they have in Vogel they should hire someone else.

    they might as well keep the interim tag then
    That's exactly what I said. If Vogel is the guy, he needs a multi-year deal. If he isn't worthy of that, then he isn't worthy of the job. Giving him a one year contract sends a terrible message.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'll be pissed if they give him only a one year deal. If that is all the confidence they have in Vogel they should hire someone else.

    they might as well keep the interim tag then.

    I would put that in the top 3 dumest things the pacers organization has ever done.

    stupid
    I wouldn't be angry, but I agree with your thoughts in general. Why bother if you only have enough faith to give him a 1 year deal? Just get Mike Brown and be done with it if that's how you feel.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I wouldn't be angry, but I agree with your thoughts in general. Why bother if you only have enough faith to give him a 1 year deal? Just get Mike Brown and be done with it if that's how you feel.

    I disagree a bit.

    I think it could very well be "we like what we saw, but we want to give you a chance to really prove yourself"

    At the end of the day, it's a good deal for the Pacers because Vogel is cheap and we don't know how this year is going to go. (Wouldn't want to pay an expensive coach at a time when we don't know if there will even be a season next year) And we get a better look at Vogel, who deserved that opportunity.

    Vogel meanwhile gets an entire season to show what he can do. If he's successful, he gets another contract. If not, he got his fair shot.

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  17. #162
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    I'd have Vogel on a two year contract, then he's not a "lame duck". Then you can still send him packing after a year, if need be. I think you'll be able to sign a "Mike Brown" caliber guy then, if need be.

    Look its not like you have a once in a life time coaching candidate knocking on your door here. I like Mike Brown quite a bit, but I'm not thinking he's a no brainer by any stretch.

    I'm glad to see this, this morning, at least they are going to weigh their options.


    http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsi...hould-pick-up/

    by Mike Wells

    The newness of Pacers president Larry Bird and owner Herb Simon’s handshake agreement has worn off.

    Now it’s time for the Pacers to turn their attention to the coaching search (and the predraft camp in Chicago) this week.

    Bird is expected to talk to the media about his decision to return for another season and likely answer some coaching questions Tuesday.

    Frank Vogel, who led the Pacers to a 20-18 record and the playoffs, is still the likely frontrunner for the job.

    Bird said last month that Vogel will get the first and last interview during the process. He also said he wants to “talk to a few (other) people” before making a decision.

    The Pacers have yet to contact potential candidates Mike Brown, Dwane Casey or Chuck Person, according to sources. Expect the Pacers to start reaching out to them.

    Brown (Golden State), Casey (Houston and Golden State) and Person (Golden Sate and Lakers) are all in the running for other jobs around the league, according to reports.

    Vogel: He earned a lot of respect from many of his peers around the league for being able to turn what looked like a disastrous season into the Pacers’ first playoff berth since 2006.

    Simon is a big supporter of Vogel because he got the players to play hard, something that wasn’t always the case with Jim O’Brien. But it’s Bird’s call on who he wants to be the coach.

    Vogel helped his chances when the Pacers competed in four of their five games against the Bulls.

    Vogel will have to tighten things up with the players. Practices were too loose at times. That’s not good for a team that has a lot of young players.

    Vogel doesn’t need to become an O’Brien clone, just make sure the players are focused when they need to be.

    Person: He has a history with the Pacers. He was drafted by them, worked in the front office for them and was in charge of the defense as an assistant coach under former coach Rick Carlisle.

    The Pacers finished in the top 10 defensively under Person during the 2006-07 season.

    Person coached the Lakers defense this season. They finished fifth in the league in field goal defense, eighth in points allowed and third in 3-point field goal defense.

    Person, who interviewed for the Chicago Bulls job in 2008, also worked closely with center Andrew Bynum, Ron Artest and Kobe Bryant.

    Brown: He spent two seasons as Carlisle’s associate head coach before heading to Cleveland to coach LeBron James and Co.

    The Cavaliers went to the NBA Finals in 2007.

    Brown is known for his defense, a problem area for the Pacers (not one player received an all-defensive team vote).

    Casey: He’s been waiting for a second shot after being let go by Minnesota halfway through his second season. The T’Wolves were 20-20 when Casey was fired. They went 12-30 the rest of the season.

    Casey missed out on jobs with the Clippers and the Hawks last summer.

    Like Brown and Person, Casey is in charge of the Mavericks defense under Carlisle. The Mavericks, who will play Oklahoma City in the Western Conference Finals, finished eighth in the league in field goal defense.

    Bird has always liked Rick Adelman, who has reportedly been linked as a candidate for the Lakers job. It’ll be interesting to see if Bird reaches out to the former Houston Rockets coach.

    Don’t be shocked if Bird decides to talk to somebody who isn’t on many people’s radar. He’s done that in the past – O’Brien.
    Last edited by Speed; 05-16-2011 at 07:54 AM.

  18. #163
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    I see nothing wrong with a 1-year deal. Of course Vogel has to prove himself. I get kind of tired of seeing professional sports teams feeling forced to throw multi-year deals at unproven commodities, because "that's just what teams do these days" and "we gotta show that we're not pansies." That mentality is what got the NBA in the trouble that it's in right now, the reason for those ridiculous contracts. It's no guarantee that you stay there, ask JOB. A 1-year has a lot of motivational factors behind it... it tells the candidate "look, we think you've got promise, but you have to show it for this next year, and then depending upon performance, we'll revisit this deal next year." It sets that bar of performance higher going forward. It's not like you're disrespecting the candidate ---- he's not very old, he's never head coached a full season and there is still a lot of question marks. And he still stands to land himself a dream contract if he performs up to par.

    As much as I like Vogel, and as good as I *think* he could be... you have to make smart business decisions. Bender showed a lot of promise early, got himself a nice contract --- bad business decision. There's no guarantee that someone is going to meet expectations. I think Vogel shows a TON of coaching promise.... but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. I see nothing wrong with making him work for a real contract this next year.

    You might consider a 3-year if you really think the competition for said candidate is that high, but I don't get the feeling there's that many teams that are prepared to throw Vogel 3 years at this point in time. Not that he isn't worth it at some point, but because he's not a completely well-known entity at this point in time. No one really knows what this guy is going to do. He's not like Lawrence Frank or Adelman or Brown, who everyone is generally familiar with and you know what you're going to get.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 05-16-2011 at 12:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    I think with a young team you have to have some consistency somewhere. Dropping Vogel after a year if he doesn't work out delays getting these guys a coach who can take them to the next level.

    If you don't think Vogel is that coach, hire someone else and let another team give him the "trial" deal.
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I see nothing wrong with a 1-year deal. Of course Vogel has to prove himself. I get kind of tired of seeing professional sports teams feeling forced to throw multi-year deals at unproven commodities, because "that's just what teams do these days" and "we gotta show that we're not pansies." That mentality is what got the NBA in the trouble that it's in right now, the reason for those ridiculous contracts. It's no guarantee that you stay there, ask JOB. A 1-year has a lot of motivational factors behind it... it tells the candidate "look, we think you've got promise, but you have to show it for this next year, and then depending upon performance, we'll revisit this deal next year." It sets that bar of performance higher going forward. It's not like you're disrespecting the candidate ---- he's not very old, he's never head coached a full season and there is still a lot of question marks. And he still stands to land himself a dream contract if he performs up to par.

    As much as I like Vogel, and as good as I *think* he could be... you have to make smart business decisions. Bender showed a lot of promise early, got himself a nice contract --- bad business decision. There's no guarantee that someone is going to meet expectations. I think Vogel shows a TON of coaching promise.... but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. I see nothing wrong with making him work for a real contract this next year.

    You might consider a 3-year if you really think the competition for said candidate is that high, but I don't get the feeling there's that many teams that are prepared to throw Vogel 3 years at this point in time. Not that he isn't worth it at some point, but because he's not a completely well-known entity at this point in time. No one really knows what this guy is going to do. He's not like Lawrence Frank or Adelman or Brown, who everyone is generally familiar with and you know what you're going to get.

    Why not do like teams do with rookie players? Give a 4 year contract with the 1st 2 years guaranteed and years 3 & 4 as a team option? Do the same with a rookie coach which is basically what Vogel is.

    Two years isn't that hard to live with if things don't workout. Not to mention with a cheap salary, he could be replaced w/o causing a big problem money wise.

  21. #166
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

    Ya I'm completely fine with that type of contract, Justin, it gives outs if needed but still holds a candle to the feet of the candidate to perform and earn any further commitments, just like you do with a rookie player. I just think the longer contracts need to go to guys who have proven themselves. I hope to God that Frank does prove himself, I really do think he has the stuff to do so.

    [EDIT] --- Although, watching a young Frank Vogel brush his teeth while spinning a basketball on the other end makes me want to forego the short contract and just give him a 10-year guaranteed.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 05-16-2011 at 02:41 PM.
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