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Thread: Vogel interviewed by Rockets (Update post #91 - Vogel no longer a candidate

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    It's kinda spooky that I agree with everything Wil Galen said.



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  2. #52

    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    For those that are saying Frank is not a coach in the mold of Jim...

    Frank might not have the same personality and approach with the players that Jim had, but he most certainly is a follower of Jim's strategy, and both of them are Rick Patino proteges. Frank has been mentoring under Jim since he was a senior in college. If anyone can be called Jim's protege, Frank can.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    The way I feel is this, I would like to see Vogel back as coach, but just on a one year contract. I want to see how he handles himself over a full year.
    I've seen this sentiment a lot... It just isn't very realistic. The most common "short contract" NOT EXTENSION is usually at least 2 years with an option for a 3rd, but commonly it's 3 years with a optional 4th.

    As Unclebuck said in another thread.... If you are only looking to give him a one year deal, you don't need to hire him in the first place.

    Nothing says, "We have faith in you and we've got your back" like a one year deal. Some of us already believe he's gonna be "green" about putting out locker room situations. Expecting "any" coach to put out locker room fires on a one year deal would be the equivalent of Barney Fife running around with his one bullet in his shirt pocket!
    Last edited by Roaming Gnome; 05-06-2011 at 08:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    If I were Vogel and the Pacers offered me a one year deal I would laugh and say no thanks and I would make sure that leaked to all the media - Pacers organization would be castigated throughout the NBA.

    I think if the Pacers aren't willing to offer him a 3 year guaranteed deal they obviously don't have much faith in him and they should hire someone else.

    2 years is borderline slap in the face, if I were Frank I might consider a two year deal if the $$ per year is really good.

    And I'm not taking into account that next season might be shortened at the very least.

    3 years is pretty standard. Not sure how many coaches over the past ten years have received a two year deal (to start with) I'm sure there have been a few, but I bet it is less than 7 or 8 over the past decade
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 05-06-2011 at 08:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    I've seen this sentiment a lot... It just isn't very realistic. The most common "short contract" NOT EXTENSION is usually at least 2 years with an option for a 3rd, but commonly it's 3 years with a optional 4th.

    As Unclebuck said in another thread.... If you are only looking to give him a one year deal, you don't need to him in the first place.

    Nothing says, "We have faith in you and we've got your back" like a one year deal.
    I thought of suggesting a two year contract because we will probably have a long lockout. It really doesn't matter to me though, the people in charge have more, and better information than we do so I'll go along with what they decide. (GRIN, not that I have a choice in the matter.)

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Looking up how long coaches contracts are. A lot of coaches will get a two year extension or a one year extension. But when they are first hired is what I'm looking at.

    Hawks hired Larry Drew to a two year deal a year ago
    http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/376541...ts/player_news

    Also John Kuester signed a two year deal with a team option for a third

    http://www.aolnews.com/2010/04/25/nba-coach-tracker/
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 05-06-2011 at 09:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    I thought of suggesting a two year contract because we will probably have a long lockout. It really doesn't matter to me though, the people in charge have more, and better information than we do so I'll go along with what they decide. (GRIN, not that I have a choice in the matter.)
    I'm sure the FO has a heck of a lot more material to base a decision on than any of us.... (You've already covered that!), and need to just treat this coach as any other coach interviewing for the job. If you have faith that he is deserving of the job AHEAD of the other candidates.... Hire him for a STANDARD term. If the FO doesn't feel that they can't trust him with the STANDARD term.... Hire someone else!


    No need for half steppin' because that is just a waste of time for all parties involved!
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Of all the possibly scenerios what you have outlined is the absolute worst. "Waiting until after the lockout" to do anything that can be done now is a horrible idea. I trust the pacers have zero intentions of waiting until the lockout is over to do anything
    So if it was your money you would just throw it away and give it to a guy to sit on his *** for a year during the lockout? If I was in charge I might sign Vogel to a one year 50k deal and have incetives in it that say if basketball is played he will get another 450K. I honestly dont think b ball will be played next year it is gonna be super ugly especially if the Heat win.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    I've seen this sentiment a lot... It just isn't very realistic. The most common "short contract" NOT EXTENSION is usually at least 2 years with an option for a 3rd, but commonly it's 3 years with a optional 4th.

    As Unclebuck said in another thread.... If you are only looking to give him a one year deal, you don't need to hire him in the first place.

    Nothing says, "We have faith in you and we've got your back" like a one year deal. Some of us already believe he's gonna be "green" about putting out locker room situations. Expecting "any" coach to put out locker room fires on a one year deal would be the equivalent of Barney Fife running around with his one bullet in his shirt pocket!
    You don't have to have a 4-year deal to motivate you. I work in an industry where I'm lucky to get a 6-month deal. You just get used to it. It keeps you motivated. I don't expect people to say hey, we have little history with you ---- here's a nice 4-year lucrative deal to show that "we've got your back." Just doesn't work that way. Any contract like that would be one that I have to earn, and that goes beyond a 4 month-stint of impressive work. I'm also an employer, so I also see things from the *other* side, too... I think this is part of the problem with today's sports is these huge, long unwarranted contracts that frequently seem to bite employer's in the butt. Look how many contracts now the Pacers have been shedding that ended up being too much and has moved them out of position to make moves that would improve their business. It's now status quo to give some unproven guy a 4-year multi-million dollar deal because "that's just how it goes these days".
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 05-06-2011 at 09:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    So if it was your money you would just throw it away and give it to a guy to sit on his *** for a year during the lockout? If I was in charge I might sign Vogel to a one year 50k deal and have incetives in it that say if basketball is played he will get another 450K. I honestly dont think b ball will be played next year it is gonna be super ugly especially if the Heat win.

    All I know is the lockout is going to be settled at some point. The players will cave long before the season is lost especially since I think the owners will be reasonable.

    But once the lockout is settled (assuming it will be during when the regular season is supposed to be going on) there will be a mad dash to start playing games, short preseason, no time to digest the new CBA - there will be no time to hire a coach. back in 1999 there were no teams without coaches when the lockout ended.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    You don't have to have a 4-year deal to motivate you. I work in an industry where I'm lucky to get a 6-month deal. You just get used to it. It keeps you motivated. I don't expect people to say hey, we have little history with you ---- here's a nice 4-year lucrative deal to show that "we've got your back." Just doesn't work that way. I'm also an employer, so I also see things from the *other* side, too... I think this is part of the problem with today's sports is these huge, long contracts that frequently seem to bite employer's in the butt. Look how many contracts now the Pacers have been shedding that ended up being too much and has moved them out of position to make moves that would improve their business.

    I work in an industry where I am day to day, minute by minute, they can fire me whenever. Most people have the same thing. What does that have to do with the NBA? Nothing.

    In the NBA the lower rung NBA coaches get 3 year deals

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    So if it was your money you would just throw it away and give it to a guy to sit on his *** for a year during the lockout? If I was in charge I might sign Vogel to a one year 50k deal and have incetives in it that say if basketball is played he will get another 450K. I honestly dont think b ball will be played next year it is gonna be super ugly especially if the Heat win.
    You know.... As soon as there is a whiff that the negotiations are wrapping up, there will not be enough time to hire a coach. In '98, the ball went up within a couple short weeks of having an agreement.

    If any owner is that tight that he is going to set his franchise back in that manner, he isn't stable enough to be an owner in ANY major league sport!

    Anyway, if you wait till after the lock out to hire someone.... What kind of scraps do you think you're going to get? I'm sure if I were a top flight coach, I'd be wondering what kind of penny ante operation does this sort of thing.... As I refuse the job!

    By the way, do you think 2 weeks is enough time for a coach to come in and evaluate his players enough to have an effective game plan then have a training camp to implement such a game plan?

    As I mentioned, if Simon or any owner pinches his pennies like that.... They have no business owning a team!
    Last edited by Roaming Gnome; 05-06-2011 at 09:39 AM.
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  17. #63

    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    I've said it many times

    the Pacers will regret it if they don't re sign this guy.

    The players like him, he has a good vision for the future, and he says all they right things to the press. Don't under estimate that last one..he can get the city behind this team.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    You don't have to have a 4-year deal to motivate you. I work in an industry where I'm lucky to get a 6-month deal. You just get used to it. It keeps you motivated. I don't expect people to say hey, we have little history with you ---- here's a nice 4-year lucrative deal to show that "we've got your back." Just doesn't work that way. Any contract like that would be one that I have to earn, and that goes beyond a 4 month-stint of impressive work. I'm also an employer, so I also see things from the *other* side, too... I think this is part of the problem with today's sports is these huge, long unwarranted contracts that frequently seem to bite employer's in the butt. Look how many contracts now the Pacers have been shedding that ended up being too much and has moved them out of position to make moves that would improve their business. It's now status quo to give some unproven guy a 4-year multi-million dollar deal because "that's just how it goes these days".
    It's all relative.... Major league professional sports is in no way relative to how we operate in the everyday world!

    What Unclebuck just said! Anyway, I'm sure H. Simon doesn't want to do something that Donald Sterling wouldn't even dare do!

    Edit:

    Also, you have to factor in that you are working against 29 other competitors. If you want to run your franchise with extremely short contracts for anything.... You'll pay through the nose to keep your talent, or just have your talent walk away because there are 29 other teams that are going to give the talent you lost job security. No one ever talks about the good of guaranteed deals. If you got someone that is good or great.... You get to keep him without having him hold out for more money.
    Last edited by Roaming Gnome; 05-06-2011 at 09:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    This is one of the reasons why I think that the FO and Bird should figure out whether to part ways or not. If Bird stays, then it more likely that Vogel stays. If Bird doesn't stay...then it's likely that anyone new coming in will get their own Coach ( unless the New Guy likes Vogel ).

    Either way, it's difficult to figure out what to do at the Coaching level without knowing what's happening at the Top.
    Last edited by CableKC; 05-06-2011 at 09:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    The irony is that I think Vogel could actually do better with the Rockets than with the Pacers. The main reason is that he starts from scratch at the top of the food chain, so no one in the organization (including players) has working habits built on him being an assistant. Add to that the talent difference (especially if Yao comes back), and you've got a good situation for a young coach.

    I also think you should realize that Adelman has been officially gone for longer than the Pacers' season has been over. The Rockets are farther along in the coaching decision process, so unless the Pacers were to make a stupidly hasty decision they are going to be doing things later than Houston.
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Some guys over at Clutchfans say Adelman could've come back but they wanted him to groom a successor and that they think Morey wouldn't give him any say in moves. We all know how Morey just sees players as sides of an equation. They think a young yes man is what he's after. Hate to say it, but that kinda fits Vogel.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    For those that are saying Frank is not a coach in the mold of Jim...

    Frank might not have the same personality and approach with the players that Jim had, but he most certainly is a follower of Jim's strategy, and both of them are Rick Patino proteges. Frank has been mentoring under Jim since he was a senior in college. If anyone can be called Jim's protege, Frank can.
    Well, if that's the case, then Frank learned what we learned watching Pitino/O'Brien ball—that it doesn't work.

    Frank immediately put an end to quick threes, to voluminous threes, and to bad shot selection.

    Can't blame Frank, though, for keeping his mouth shut and collecting a check until such time as he had the power to make the proper changes.
    .

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    This is one of the reasons why I think that the FO and Bird should figure out whether to part ways or not. If Bird stays, then it more likely that Vogel stays. If Bird doesn't stay...then it's likely that anyone new coming in will get their own Coach ( unless the New Guy likes Vogel ).

    Either way, it's difficult to figure out what to do at the Coaching level without knowing what's happening at the Top.
    I agree with this.

    And, in conjunction with this I believe that Bird is using this as part of his negotiations with Simon about his own future.

    Bird had previously said that Vogel would be interviewing with other teams (and said that the Pacers would be interviewing other candidates), but that the Pacers would be interviewing Vogel both first and last with respect to the Pacers' head coaching position.

    Bird recognizes that Vogel is riding the wave of both his own refreshing style and the success of the team and, to an extent, his similarity to the ultra popular Brad Stevens. My guess is that Bird is indicating to Simon that he had better hire Bird at whatever Bird's terms are from a spending standpoint as well as a control standpoint so that Bird can go ahead and get Vogel signed before he goes elsewhere, which would take away some of the positive momentum that Vogel has helped create.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    As far as I know everyone working for the Redskins FO is not getting paid during the lockout.

    I cannot say for a fact if that is true for our head coach, but I cannot imagine a coach would get paid during a lock-out

    As for the issue at hand, meh. The Rockets have interviewed lots of guys, but I do really like Frank

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    If I were Vogel and the Pacers offered me a one year deal I would laugh and say no thanks and I would make sure that leaked to all the media - Pacers organization would be castigated throughout the NBA.

    I think if the Pacers aren't willing to offer him a 3 year guaranteed deal they obviously don't have much faith in him and they should hire someone else.

    2 years is borderline slap in the face, if I were Frank I might consider a two year deal if the $$ per year is really good.

    And I'm not taking into account that next season might be shortened at the very least.

    3 years is pretty standard. Not sure how many coaches over the past ten years have received a two year deal (to start with) I'm sure there have been a few, but I bet it is less than 7 or 8 over the past decade
    Or they would say "oh well, prove yourself kid"....................

    EDIT: I would not accept a 1 year deal if I was in his position, but to act like its some kind insult is a bit weird to me. He still has to prove himself, and while I think he did a great job in the situation he was in, a case could be made (bball and Will did it better then I could) that he was simply in the right place at the right time (and in no way am I faulting him for that)

  28. #72
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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    What was JOB making, $3.5mm a year right? So what do we think's realistic for Vogel? 2? 2.5?

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    What was JOB making, $3.5mm a year right? So what do we think's realistic for Vogel? 2? 2.5?
    Wells said about 1m maybe even cheaper they said he would be by far the cheapest option it was in a radio interview where he said that.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Wells said about 1m maybe even cheaper they said he would be by far the cheapest option it was in a radio interview where he said that.
    I don't doubt Vogel's the cheapest option, but saying he'd take a million per sounds like out his butt talk to me. That'd have to make him by far the cheapest coach in the league.

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    Default Re: Vogel interviewed by Houston Rockets

    Larry Drew makes $1.3M and that is the lowest in the NBA.

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