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Thread: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

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    Default NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Judge Susan Nelson effectively ended the NFL's lockout this morning deeming the action "illegal" since the players union "de-certified". This action puts the players in the catbird seat for their CBA negotiation with the NFL because the players will be paid during negotiations. Obviously, the NFL immediately sent the decision for appeal, but judge Nelson wrote an 89 page opinion on her ruling about how the lockout unfairly effects the players livelihood and other factors. Some experts say her written opinion will weigh very heavily in the appeals process.

    My question is... How similar are the situations between the NFL & NBA? Will Judge Nelson's ruling be considered "precedent" and effect how the NBA will conduct negotiations? The only reason for a lockout is to put heat on the players by straining their pocketbooks.

    Kind of hard to get the landmark changes the NBA wants without making the players cave in by not paying them.

    On a side note, I remember when then super agent David Faulk tried to de-certify the NBA players union over a dozen years ago. I didn't really care for it considering that it was being driven by the highest profile players in the league to break the rule on maximum contracts. The rank and file of the NBA choose not to decertify because they felt it would create a system of haves & have not in regard to player contracts. I fear decertification will be on the players agenda to be able to line themselves up for Judge Nelson's ruling for negotiations this summer.

    Today could be bad news for getting a lot of the changes that may help the owners make changes that may make small markets competitive.
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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    I think the chances of avoiding a lockout went up. But maybe not by much, according to this analysis:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...out/index.html

    8. What effect, if any, does Judge Nelson's ruling have on the NBA?

    The collective bargaining agreement between the NBA and the National Basketball Players' Association (NBPA) will expire June 30. Just like we saw last month with the NFLPA and the NFL, the NBPA is poised to decertify and the NBA is poised to institute a lockout.

    On one hand, Judge Nelson's ruling sends a warning to the NBA and its owners that, at least in her view, antitrust law holds a dim view of lockouts and that judges should not wait for the NLRB to decide on unfair labor complaints.

    On the other hand, the NBA is in a very different situation.

    For one, the NFL's legal argument has been hampered by the fact that not one NFL team can show that it is losing money. The inability of a team to do so suggests that enjoining the NFL lockout would not force an NFL team to lose money. The NBA, in contrast, asserts that 22 of its 30 teams will lose money in the 2010-11 season, and the league is willing to open the books to prove it. A court decision to lift a lockout instituted by the NBA would therefore subject NBA teams to losing money in the 2011-12 season. Such a consequence could motivate a judge reviewing an NBA lockout to be less willing than Judge Nelson to lift the lockout.

    Second, irreparable harm may be more difficult for NBA players to show, since unlike NFL players who can play nowhere else and earn an NFL-quality income, some NBA players would be able to secure lucrative contracts in Europe and elsewhere during a lockout. If NBA players can't show irreparable harm, they would not be able to convince a judge to enjoin an NBA lockout.

    Third, Judge Nelson's decision would not bind a court that reviews the NBA lockout. In fact, it is likely that such a court would be in New York, where both the NBA and NBPA are located. The NFL and NFLPA are litigating the lockout in Minnesota because the parties choose to do so in their collective bargaining agreement.

    Bottom line: while Judge Nelson's ruling likely caused some concern for NBA teams, the NBA is in a very different situation and a lockout may be viewed more favorably by a court.

    Michael McCann is a sports law professor and Sports Law Institute director at Vermont Law School and the distinguished visiting Hall of Fame Professor of Law at Mississippi College School of Law. He also teaches a sports law and analytics reading group at Yale Law School.
    Still, I'd think the NBA would try harder to negotiate a deal before entering a lockout situation.

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    I think the chances of avoiding a lockout went up. But maybe not by much, according to this analysis:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...out/index.html



    Still, I'd think the NBA would try harder to negotiate a deal before entering a lockout situation.
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    I am not an expert by any means, obviously. But I think this is both good and bad news as it relates to the NBA. The bottonline is the sides still need to come to an agreement, but obvioiusly this gives the players a big bargaining chip. And it might make the owners less inclined to try for major changes - but that might hurt small market teams. But this ruling also might make the players less willing to give in on anything.

    Mixed bag for sure and the sides still need to come to an agreement regardless

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Today could be bad news for getting a lot of the changes that may help the owners make changes that may make small markets competitive.
    You think so? Which changes exactly do you think would make small markets more competitive?

    IMO, the most important change that could help small market teams is revenue sharing, which the players are in favor of.

    The second potential change that could help small markets is the franchise tag system, which appears to be negotiable.

    I don't think a hard cap necessarily helps small markets at all. In fact, I'd argue the opposite, a hard cap hurts small market teams. If everything else is equal, would you as a player prefer to play in NY or Indiana? The only chance for Indiana to outcompete NY for the same desirable free agent is the ability to pay more, and that means Indiana must be able to exceed the cap at times. As to how Indiana is going to pay for these free agents, well that's where revenue sharing comes in.

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    The players should all go overseas and play. Tell Stern they're fine and he can let the players know whenever he feels like having a league again. Surely some oil tycoon wouldn't mind investing in a Euro league expansion team (or several teams) to accommodate the influx of talent.
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    You think so? Which changes exactly do you think would make small markets more competitive?

    IMO, the most important change that could help small market teams is revenue sharing, which the players are in favor of.

    The second potential change that could help small markets is the franchise tag system, which appears to be negotiable.

    I don't think a hard cap necessarily helps small markets at all. In fact, I'd argue the opposite, a hard cap hurts small market teams. If everything else is equal, would you as a player prefer to play in NY or Indiana? The only chance for Indiana to outcompete NY for the same desirable free agent is the ability to pay more, and that means Indiana must be able to exceed the cap at times. As to how Indiana is going to pay for these free agents, well that's where revenue sharing comes in.
    I agree revenue sharing would help things alot. But I do not agree with your opinion on a hard cap. It will actually help small market teams in the long run. Sure it decreases their chances of out right signing a superstar player. But it also keeps their competition from being able to sign 2-3 superstar players. They days of putting together superstar teams, luxury tax be damned need to be over. So I think a hard cap will provide for parity in the league. Sure certain teams will always be able to draw the Lebrons or the Wade's but that wont' mean they have the best team.
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post
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    The players should all go overseas and play. Tell Stern they're fine and he can let the players know whenever he feels like having a league again. Surely some oil tycoon wouldn't mind investing in a Euro league expansion team (or several teams) to accommodate the influx of talent.

    I could be wrong, but isn't there a limit on how many foreign players can be on Euro teams. If that is true, your scenario won't work. Even if there isn't one, Euro teams, just like the NBA, have players under contract, so there wouldn't be that many opening available. In these economic times, can Euro teams afford an influx of star NBA players?

    Then there is the contract situation where NBA players would want a contract where they can get out of it when the lockout is over. Why would some team want to sign Granger to a contract only to have him play 30-60 days? There is 450 NBA players and all aren't going to find a team overseas wanting them. IOW, I don't see Europe as a bonafide avenue for NBA players. Maybe for some stars, but not for the vast majority of NBA players.

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    You think so? Which changes exactly do you think would make small markets more competitive?

    IMO, the most important change that could help small market teams is revenue sharing, which the players are in favor of.

    The second potential change that could help small markets is the franchise tag system, which appears to be negotiable.

    I don't think a hard cap necessarily helps small markets at all. In fact, I'd argue the opposite, a hard cap hurts small market teams. If everything else is equal, would you as a player prefer to play in NY or Indiana? The only chance for Indiana to outcompete NY for the same desirable free agent is the ability to pay more, and that means Indiana must be able to exceed the cap at times. As to how Indiana is going to pay for these free agents, well that's where revenue sharing comes in.

    If there is not enough revenue to share to make teams profitable what is the point of revenue sharing. There has to be enough revenue in the first place. I would take a hard cap any day over what you are offering as a solution. Check with baseball to see how that has worked out.
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    If there is not enough revenue to share to make teams profitable what is the point of revenue sharing. There has to be enough revenue in the first place. I would take a hard cap any day over what you are offering as a solution. Check with baseball to see how that has worked out.
    Revenue sharing will help but the NBA wants a hard cap as well.

    I read yesterday that the owners are trying to offer a gradual increase in the salary cap each year for 3-4 years to eventually get to a hard cap anywhere from 62-65 million dollars. This would eliminate the luxury tax and the sharing that comes from it but it will force the richer teams to cut their budgets and limit what they can do through free agency.

    That would really help the small market teams with superstars but it wouldn't start helping them until 3-4 years from now. I still think it is a good idea and the players union can't say that the owners aren't trying to reach a compromise.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    If there is not enough revenue to share to make teams profitable what is the point of revenue sharing. There has to be enough revenue in the first place. I would take a hard cap any day over what you are offering as a solution. Check with baseball to see how that has worked out.
    That's a different issue. Right now, players are taking in 57% of basketball related income. This percentage is going to be reduced, no question. The players have already indicated their willingness to negotiate this. The sticking point here is what expenses should be deducted before calculating the "income" - players aren't getting 57% of gross revenue right now, and if the owners have their way even more expenses will get deducted off the top.

    I'd like to see some arguments on how a hard cap would help small market teams. Give some specific examples. Let's say it's 2010 again, with a $50m hard salary cap and with LeBron, Wade, etc on the free agent market. What does a hard cap change?

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    The NBA lockout will be effected by a decision from the owners upon expiration of the existing contract June 30.

    It might be affected by this decision, though...
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    That's a different issue. Right now, players are taking in 57% of basketball related income. This percentage is going to be reduced, no question. The players have already indicated their willingness to negotiate this. The sticking point here is what expenses should be deducted before calculating the "income" - players aren't getting 57% of gross revenue right now, and if the owners have their way even more expenses will get deducted off the top.

    I'd like to see some arguments on how a hard cap would help small market teams. Give some specific examples. Let's say it's 2010 again, with a $50m hard salary cap and with LeBron, Wade, etc on the free agent market. What does a hard cap change?

    They will not be able to fill out there roster if 2-3 players eat up the majority of the salary.
    Players 99% of the time go where the money is. A hard cap protects the small market team.
    Simple economics. All you need to do is go to Hoopshype and look at team salaries.
    The Pacers and other small market teams will NOT go over the luxary tax. LA, Boston, Dallas
    don't seem to care very much whether they pay the tax or not. There are other issues
    involved here such as a Tag that teams can use to prevent their superstar from leaving.
    Revenue sharing is between the teams to negotiate.
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    The NBA lockout will be effected by a decision from the owners upon expiration of the existing contract June 30.

    It might be affected by this decision, though...
    Hehehe!

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    Hehehe!

    These two words get misused more than just about any others I can think of, aside from "to, two and too"
    The only one that constantly gets under my skin, is not understanding the difference of the words lose and loose.

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    Hehehe!

    These two words get misused more than just about any others I can think of, aside from "to, two and too"

    Your correct in what your saying, but that is just your're opinion

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Your correct in what your saying, but that is just your're opinion

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    You guys are really trying to make poor anthem have a stroke lol.

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
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    AAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
    You are making two much of all this, I am going too leave right now and come back in to hours. Otherwise I will loose it. Either way though it is a lose, we loss either way
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    You are making two much of all this, I am going too leave right now and come back in to hours.
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Your correct in what your saying, but that is just your're opinion
    Hehehe!

    These two words get misused more than just about any others I can think of, aside from "to, two and too"
    And along comes Unclebuck to remind us of another misused word...

    This is two much fun too continue.
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    I think the chances of avoiding a lockout went up. But maybe not by much, according to this analysis:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...out/index.html



    Still, I'd think the NBA would try harder to negotiate a deal before entering a lockout situation.
    Just what I was going to say. These are two significantly different situations.

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    This is a good article

    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/1...rom-nba-owners


    NBA owners intend to submit a revised collective bargaining proposal to the players by Friday and are hopeful the document will "get the conversation going" in the wake of NFL players' significant anti-trust victory in federal court, a person familiar with the situation told CBSSports.com Tuesday.

    The person declined to divulge details of the new proposal, which will arrive in the hands of National Basketball Players Association officials nearly two months to the day before the expiration of the current CBA at 12:01 a.m. July 1.

    While high-ranking NBA executives and attorneys believe the NFL has a chance to win its appeal to the Eighth Circuit on a U.S. District Court ruling Monday temporarily suspending pro football's lockout, there is no dispute among basketball officials that the ruling puts the onus on the NBA and its union to negotiate a new deal rather than have the process hijacked by the uncertainty of the courts.

    David Stern and the NBA received a wake-up call with the recent NFL ruling. (Getty Images)
    "We're both going to give it our best shot and try to avoid the courts," a person familiar with the bargaining talks told CBSSports.com.

    The ruling enjoining the NFL lockout by U.S. District Judge Susan Nelson, pending appeal, put the NFL in limbo Tuesday. Agents were unsure whether their clients should report to team facilities, and the league stated that no official workouts should take place until after a stay of Nelson's ruling is granted or a ruling is rendered on appeal -- which is expected to take weeks. In a sign of the weirdness, about 20 members of the Miami Dolphins held their own practice Tuesday on a soccer field not far from the team's official training facility, according to the Miami Herald.

    But more to the point of where the NBA stands in its bargaining position with the players, the NFL faces the difficult burden of imposing work rules under which business can be done in the meantime. If the NBA went the same route -- locking out players and leaving itself vulnerable to an unfavorable court ruling that would require it to operate -- the menu of alternatives may not be as appetizing as simply negotiating the best deal owners can get with the players while the union still exists.

    "There's no question it's a victory for the players," an NBA management source said of the NFL ruling. "There's no other way to characterize it."

    If the NBA, facing a similar legal outcome, attempted to impose rules that were more restrictive than those in the expiring CBA, it would open itself up to further legal action, legal sources said. There also is a significant risk to the players, who would have voluntarily relinquished their right to bargain collectively. The risk to NBA players' future salaries is greater than for their NFL counterparts because NBA contracts currently on the books contain more guaranteed money. The NBA owners' position, legal sources say, would be that all future guaranteed money -- about $4 billion in total -- would be null and void if the NBPA followed the same course of decertification and anti-trust action. The players, of course, would sue to recoup the money -- opening another uncertain and time-consuming legal front and putting their future earnings in the hands of a federal judge.

    The NBA's situation also is different because the league has documented that it is not operating profitably under the current CBA. Commissioner David Stern said recently that 22 teams are projected to lose a total of $300 million this season. Similar losses in prior years of the agreement have been documented to the union in the form of audited financial statements and tax returns.

    If the NBA decided that going to court would provide a better outcome than negotiating, its trump card would be the belief that no federal judge or appeals court panel would force a sports league to operate at a loss. But if it goes that far, some outcomes are more appealing to both sides than others. For one, the league could opt to impose work rules leaving the current soft-cap/luxury-tax system in place but unilaterally reducing the players' share of revenue from 57 percent to, for example, 40 percent. The legal argument would be that the owners have no choice but to impose a pay cut because they are being forced by the courts to operate and are losing money under the existing model. It is unknown whether such a tactic would survive legal challenge, which could be lengthy, expensive, and less productive than negotiating before it got to that point.

    Another option: Owners who believed the courts would not approve rules allowing them to be profitable simply could decide to shut down their businesses. The specter of contraction -- a negotiating tactic that would evolve into a very real threat during a lengthy court fight -- would not be desirable to the players because of the dozens of jobs that would be lost.

    The question the players would be asking themselves during a court battle is, would they rather take a 20 percent pay cut, lose an entire season, or lose dozens of jobs if the least profitable teams went out of business? Similarly, the owners and Stern -- who has ruled the NBA with an iron fist and absolute control for more than a quarter century -- would be forced to ask themselves whether they'd rather negotiate with union chief Billy Hunter (the evil they know) or have the future of their sport decided by the courts (the evil they don't).

    That's the problem with the courts. No judge will ever go so far as to write a new collective bargaining agreement for owners and players. That part will be up to them. Whether they choose to do so before the courts get involved or after, when it will be far more difficult, should be an easy call.

    So as the playoffs roll on this week, with thrilling outcomes, potential upsets and sky-rocketing TV ratings, a judge in Minnesota has done what neither Stern nor Hunter has been able to do for two years: transformed the chances of an NBA lockout from inevitable to unlikely. At the very least, she has taken what seemed like a slam-dunk tactic for the owners and turned it into a heave at the shot-clock horn. As a result, the best option for NBA owners and players is to call a timeout, huddle up, and get this done. Whatever they do to each other behind closed doors will be far less painful than the alternative.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-27-2011 at 11:24 AM.

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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    Another option: Owners who believed the courts would not approve rules allowing them to be profitable simply could decide to shut down their businesses. The specter of contraction -- a negotiating tactic that would evolve into a very real threat during a lengthy court fight -- would not be desirable to the players because of the dozens of jobs that would be lost.

    The question the players would be asking themselves during a court battle is, would they rather take a 20 percent pay cut, lose an entire season, or lose dozens of jobs if the least profitable teams went out of business?
    havin a laugh are we ?

    Like the Maloofs will shut down a business they paid 500 mil for ? like Simon is dropping an estimated 267 million.
    That's a lot of years losing money if you shut it down.

    And that is if you belief the losing money story, which I am sure is in large parts "created" in the books.
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    Default Re: NFL lockout deemed "illegal"... How does it effect the NBA's collective bargaining this summer?

    What if as part of the contraction process proposal the players have to consider the NBA buying out the teams being contracted?

    The Silnas got a pretty good deal agreeing not to field a team and just going away....
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