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Thread: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

  1. #76
    Whale Shepherd cdash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    .

    That is a set play we have ran all season just basic PnR at first that was a option but the main option. Is to set Granger up for the shot he got. With an option to drive if he felt he could. But DC didnt leave him enoght time for that option. I think the Bulls knew it was coming.(he didnt get good sepration which is why he didnt get the best look)


    It is simlar to the baseline end bound play. Where we give it to Hibbert by the 3pt line and Danny just runs around him and gets a open look from the Hibbert pick.
    Yeah, that does seem to be one of the two plays we run. The other is the Granger iso play--the one that beat the Knicks and the one that he tried to use a second time against the Knicks which Melo blocked.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    you know i was hoping for those trick set plays we make with alley oops to the basket from the inbound pass....have danny curl through a screen set by McRoberts and then have McRoberts go for the oop from the inbound passas Bulls were looking hard to double team Danny when he gets the ball...

    there was a play called but the players just chocked on the execution of it...their spacing was awful thanks to the D that the Bulls came up with and they just weren't able to adjust to it in time...

    this is all lack of experience more than anything...we will continue to get burned till we can learn to read the defenses better and react after they take away our option instead of trying to force our main/2nd option.

    it felt like DC was told no matter what Granger is going to take the last shot - not sure if thats the case but that is exactly how he played it out....

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  4. #78
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    What was that garbage at the end of the game then?
    p4ever asnwered your queston directly.

    I think maybe some of us have different definition of what an iso is. if we dribble the ball up and the pt guard passed to danny, everyone clears out and DG goes one-on-one that is an iso.

    If we move the ball up, run one pick and roll, run danny off a double scren and get Danny the ball at the top o the key - that is not an iso, especially because usually then danny runs of a screen in order to get into his sweet spot.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Yeah, that does seem to be one of the two plays we run. The other is the Granger iso play--the one that beat the Knicks and the one that he tried to use a second time against the Knicks which Melo blocked.

    I dont consider those iso plays

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I dont consider those iso plays
    Going one on one againts SW is not an Iso?

  7. #81
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Dumb thread alert!!!
    Grown Man Ball

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Frustrating loss.

    As for Vogel, I think he's done an amazing job with his overall game plan and getting the players ready to play. His only flaw has been off set pieces. We had a couple at the end of this last game and both ended up being contested crappy missed shots.

    As for our point guards, I've been for months that we should draft a point guard in the draft with size to back up DC and let Price go. I like Price, but he's just not good enough.

    I think this series has also really exposed our problems inside, especially with Hibbert. Offensively he should be a huge asset with Noah guarding him, and he just can't hit the close shots. I'm not calling for Hibberts head as I think he puts in the effort needed to progress and he has a great attitude. I'd like to see how he progresses over the offseason for next year as I think it will be a continued improvement, but I am now worried it's a position we'll have address.
    Danger Zone

  10. #83

    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    I like Vogel a lot and I hope he's back next year

    That being said, it's ok if everybody and there mom knows you're give it to your best player....if you're best player can get their own shot. That's not grangers game. The pacers strength is their depth, so they need to use it right down to their final possession. I would have been fine with any player on the court taking the final shot rather than grangers off balance 3. He needs to have something more creative following a time out.

  11. #84

    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    Dumb thread alert!!!
    Come on. Grow up buddy. If you don't like it, don't post in it, but lets not act like a child.

  12. #85
    Member thewholefnshow31's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    Aj price has killed any momentum this team has had.
    And you think TJ Ford would not have killed any momentum this team had? How quickly we forget why the guy got benched every year including this one. TJ would have killed the momentum just as quickly as AJ.

    I think a lot of fans just had way to high of expectations for this team. I am thrilled we just kept it close, Paul George is having an amazing series defensively, and our young guys are gaining valuable experience.

    Vogel has done a tremendous job turning this team around and getting us to the playoffs. He has done a very good job in the playoffs go up against the best team in the league given what he has to work with.

    We get some rebounding help at PF in the offseason, Paul George works on his offense, and we will be a much higher seed then 8th next season.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    I strongly disagree with your theory of playing TJ over Price. TJ is a turnover machine. We traded big to get him and he's our 3rd option for a reason. Veteran or not, he is not better than Price.

    I agree Vogel made some mistakes.

    1.) HAVING JONES GUARD ROSE AT THE END OF THE GAME!!! Paul George should of been on Rose, he has guarded him the best any defender in the league could and to allow Jones to do so was a vital mistake.

    2.) Keeping Collison and Granger under 35mins. I mean these kids are 23 and 28 they can play significant minutes. Especially Collison, he is far superior to TJ and Price and should of been on the court 41 minutes.


    Is Vogel a good coach. Yes! I don't think we should keep our options closed though.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    6 of 24 shots
    12 combined rebounds

    but its our backup point guard's fault that we lost.

    THIS is why I stick up for DC and AJ. Have they had their absolutely terrible stretches. Yes. Yes they have. Tonight was one of them.

    But the other young guys always seem to get a pass. All of us knowing that they'll develop and they've got potential. To me, this extends to the point guards. Particularly when they are learning the most important position on the floor, and the hardest position on the floor..and neither have had the easiest circumstances to learn them in from the start of their careers.
    I don't suppose that you are advocating for a change in big men? That would make us most unlikely allies....

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoomBaby31 View Post
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    I strongly disagree with your theory of playing TJ over Price. TJ is a turnover machine. We traded big to get him and he's our 3rd option for a reason. Veteran or not, he is not better than Price.

    I agree Vogel made some mistakes.

    1.) HAVING JONES GUARD ROSE AT THE END OF THE GAME!!! Paul George should of been on Rose, he has guarded him the best any defender in the league could and to allow Jones to do so was a vital mistake.

    2.) Keeping Collison and Granger under 35mins. I mean these kids are 23 and 28 they can play significant minutes. Especially Collison, he is far superior to TJ and Price and should of been on the court 41 minutes.


    Is Vogel a good coach. Yes! I don't think we should keep our options closed though.
    Price or Ford... I don't think it makes much difference. However, Price had not been playing very well, so I probably would have given more time to Ford.

    I agree, I would have had George on Ford. George had played Ford very well throughout parts of the game and seemed to be "all in" for the challenge.

    As far as minutes go, couldn't disagree more. We were down 2-0, so screw the minutes. You play whoever you have to for as many minutes as you have to in order to get the job done. Basically, there is NO tomorrow.

  18. #89

    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    It's not as if Tom Thibodeau drew up some creative, unpredictable play for his team's game winning possession. He gave the ball to Rose and told everyone else to get out of the way.

    This is very true, and it makes Granger look even worse. Granger had some nice baskets in the 4th qtr, but who didn't realize Granger would take the last shot whether it was an open shot or a forced one? The sun comes up in east and sets in the west everyday, and it was predictable Granger would take the last shot. He's not Wade, LeBron, or Rose. Apparently, Granger feels he is the "MAN", when in reality he is just one of the other many boys when it comes to being clutch and the closer.

    I realize Granger is the best player the Pacers have, but there are other players on the floor. IT IS A TEAM GAME. Quit allowing Granger to feel he has to take the last shot, especially when it is a forced shot that isn't even a good shot. 2 words that aren't synonymous with each other are "clutch and Granger." Never have been nor will they ever be.

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  20. #90
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Wow. I disagree with so much of the sentiment in this thread. AJ did make a few turnovers, agreed, but he wasn't nearly as bad or as accountable for our loss as any other player.

    I want to look at Granger. He took some really bad shots, early in the shot clock with nobody in position to rebound. That pass he threw cross court that sailed over the head of AJ was HORRID. He took that quick jumper off the offensive rebound completely off balance and in no way was that a smart play. He has been trying to bail himself out at the top of the key when he gets out of control by handing the ball off to a BIG on the three point line. They can't do ANYTHING with that. WTF are you thinking? The last shot, I don't mind him taking, but he was being guarded by three people. There were two people open. Our best player is making dumb plays. He was making shots last night. Great, but he needs to do more. Of course, he doesn't have any more playoff experience than everybody else on this team.

    Hibbert missed some close ones, but the touch he had on those shots was nice. They just rolled off the rim. Joakim Noah is one of the best defensive centers in the entire league. To expect Hibbert to put up 20+ points and outrebound Boozer and Noah by himself is ridiculous. He does need to do a better job of rebounding I agree.

    Hansborough was awesome last night with his hustle and toughness, but man his decision making was bad. He couldn't make up his mind whether he wanted to shoot or drive all night. There was no confidence stepping up into that 15-20 footer. Hansborough and Hibbert both need to box out more, but their PG, SG, and SF are all better rebounders than what we have. At least that is what they have been showing. Keith Bogans coming up with several key rebounds this series? Where are you Granger? Sitting outside the three point line watching? Cause that is all I have seen from you on that side of the ball.

    As for Darren Collison. There is absolutely, positively, uncontestably no reason why, he should be guarding Korver. I have seen almost every single big three Korver has hit this series has been when Collison has been on him. I was saying last night that he should not have even been in the game. We should have just played without a PG if we are going to put George on Rose. Go big, get more rebounds, CONTEST JUMP SHOTS OF THE GUY WHO HASN'T MISSED A THREE NEARLY ALL SERIES AND WE HAVE OUR SHORTEST PLAYER GUARDING HIM?!?!?!

    Coronary almost over.

    Our pick and rolls have been ugly. Collison has been leaving way too soon so our bigs aren't even in position to set a pick. Collison has hit some big shots in the lane don't get me wrong, but when you are only doing one thing well, it becomes easy to defend. The Granger play last night he left early and took a bad angle on the pick. He started the play poorly and it just got worse. How did Granger not realize he had three people on him? Pass the ball if that is the case. Everybody on the court is an NBA player.

    I hate that Rush hasn't gotten enough minutes, but I understand why. We are trying to figure out a way to guard Rose. Brandon is a half step too slow for Rose, so Jones makes more sense. George makes the most sense, I agree. Dunleavy has been solid offensively. I would have him guarding Korver being as long as he is. Korver isn't going to drive around anybody, even if it is Mike. Korver needs to be contested and that is what Mike does best, recover from getting burned by using his length and vision to make up for it later. I would have Mike playing Point Forward for us honestly. Keep him on Korver or Bogans defensively. If we were playing the Heat or Celtics, we would see Brandon getting more minutes.

    McRoberts has been awesome this series. So has Foster. Love that Foster hit Rose hard. They want to elbow and punch our players, well we need to take it out on him. I am disappointed that we haven't fouled Rose harder. We have beat him up pretty good but it should be worse, considering that we are having fouls called on us for breathing on the guy. Make him pay for the officiating at least.

    OK. I'm done. Sorry so long. It's been inside for too long.

    PS - I think Vogel has done a good job. We are just a really inexperienced team who falters in the last two minutes of the game. It SHOULD be expected that these games have played out this way.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
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    Good coach. Innovative, inspirational, young. Cannot draw up final offensive possessions to save his life. That's his main flaw in my book, and easily cured by good assistants.
    I think the plays he drew up were good but I think Collison failed to execute them properly. The Bulls trapped him on the Pick-and-Roll and he didn't make the correct decisions when that happened.

    When the game was tied at 84, Danny came open off of a screen but Darren didn't get him the ball. Instead he forced a contested shot between 2 defenders. The last play actually wasn't a bad play. Deng did a great job defending and Danny still got a great look at the game winning shot. Deng bothered the shot and forced the miss.

    I don't see how you can blame Vogel when Hansbrough and Hibbert missed as many shots as they did in Game 3. Hibbert got the ball deep in the paint several times and he either missed or committed the offensive foul. Hansbrough's jumper has gone M.I.A. since game 1. Neither of those 2 things are Frank Vogel's fault.

    Vogel made the great decision to play Dhantay Jones in Game 3. He also has the Pacers playing the best defense they've played all year. The Bulls have Derrick Rose and the Pacers don't. That's the difference in the entire series.

    I don't understand how anyone can fault Vogel for not getting his young 37 win team to upset the league leader in wins and defensive. It's just silly.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    GOOD GOD THAT'S LARRY BIRD'S MUSIC!

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  23. #92

    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Wait. Why does everyone point at tyler and say " see Obrien wouldn't play him and now Vogel does and look at him now". Yet, obrien didn't play Ford either and its not assumed that he might benefit from thee Vogel system too? You can't have it both ways. And for the record, ive thought tj has been pretty solid all year.

  24. #93

    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    this series has made me think much better of Vogel, not worse

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    Who is gonna play instead of Price? Ford? Do you guys remember how TJ Ford plays? Dribble into the lane and turn it over. Has Price been good? Hell no. He is looking for his shot way too much. But TJ isn't the answer and DC can't play the whole game. Blame Price for Price's play, not Vogel.

    Ford has played in 1 game, and he wasn't at all as you described. He played within the system trying to get other players involved. OTOH, Price shot "9" times as a b/u PG in 13 PT. Making only TWO of them. That's a whopping 22%! Price in 3 playoff games is averaging 17 minutes per game and has achieved the incredible 1 Ast per game and shot 34%. That's ridiculous! 1 Ast for 17 minutes from a PG is beyond horrible. It just plain out right stinks. There is NO defending that type of poor play. I'd much rather have Ford, who has playoff experience, backing up Collison than Price.

    AND yes, the Pacers need to look for a better b/u PG than Price for next season.

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  28. #95

    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    I don't suppose that you are advocating for a change in big men? That would make us most unlikely allies....
    I believe strongly, that Price and Collison will be a fine PG duo. It's something we don't have to worry about, and them developing is our problem right now. Do they have flashes of terrible play. Yes, but they also show flashes of what they are capable of doing. And we just need to develop it. So it's not a problem. Both have a huge work ethic, do what the coaches tell them to do, and are pretty talented guys. They've gotten a lot of hate around here, but I have a feeling they'll both make people look silly by this time next season. (If given the opportunity)

    But they are consistently the most "hated" on. We've gotten "Price hasn't played well all series." Not true. Not true at all. He played well the first game. Was Jekyll and Hyde the second. (Really just panicked and then settled down.) And did not play well last game. That's better then what Hansbrough, Josh, Hibbert, Dun, and Rush have done.

    DC..we've got people whining about DC. But he had been excellent in this series until last game. Of course, he was playing on a sprained ankle. Not like that could have had anything to do with it, at all.

    This series has shown, we need a defender and rebounder in the post. With that, we're up 3-0. That's something that Hibbert, Hansbrough, and McRoberts are never going to be. (Hello Jeff Foster ten years ago) I like all three of them a lot. And the skills that each bring to the game are unique. But none of them have the "tough defensive guy who is a rebounder" skill. That's the guy that needs to play next to Roy.

    My dream, would be to have Hans be the backup PF, McRoberts be the backup C, and get a starting PF that is capable of doing those things. Problem is, Josh is going to have to get stronger to do that. (But those two play well together anyway)

    I know you'd like to switch out Hibbert. I'd give Roy another year to see where he's at, as to me, he's got the most potential of the three. He works hard. His problem is mental, and core strength. (Which hopefully he'll address in the off season)

    We also need a SG that can score. But just like the PG position, I feel that's only a matter of time and development with Paul George. So understandable if we don't make a change there.

    This is just a mater of patience. These young guys are good. But the only thing we need, that we don't have, is a big guy that can rebound and defend. Heck, if the Pacers front office wanted to stick with this entire team for another season to see where they are at, then I'd be fine with it. I just believe that the conclusion we are going to come to is that we need a post defender and a rebounder.
    Last edited by Sookie; 04-22-2011 at 11:10 AM.

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  30. #96
    thx4tehmRys Danny! daschysta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Vogel has outcoached thibs (COY) and has our guys playing with passion and intensity. How this series can make vogel look like anything other than a very good coach baffles me. The last play was a good one btw. It obviously wasn't drawn up for a DC contested floater, evidenced by dannies reaction. DC executes properly and danny has an open jumper.

  31. #97
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    I didn't get to see last night's game but based on what I saw previously from AJ I think Ford's experience could pay dividends. He has quickness necessary for the defensive end and he clearly wasn't rattled at all to be playing in game 2 even though he probably didn't expect to be.
    OTOH... I guess we're still playing for the future so playing AJ now, even if he has a rough patch, might payoff next season or the next time in the playoffs. Otherwise, being in win or go home mode, I'd expect TJ to get some minutes...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  32. #98

    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Yup......

  33. #99

    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    I think Frank has alot of potential as coach, and i realize its a learning process for him and the team together. I do have to question why paul george has not returned in the 2nd qtr after being such a disruptive force in the 1st. As well as he was playing today id give him as many minutes as he could handle.

  34. #100
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Nope...

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