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Thread: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffg-body View Post
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    Yes, AJ has not played well in the post season, but DC is not all full strength either. Would you rather see TJ or heaven forbid Lance out there? He has us being competitive against one of the best teams in basketball right now. I was hoping we would pull off one game in this series but I am happy we are competing and making the bulls work their butts off for every win. Our guys really played good defense tonight but in the end was taken by the better team with an MVP player. Hopefully this experience will fuel the fire for our young guys to bust their humps in the offseason and get better. I see Hibbert, PG, DC and even Lance (if he can get it together) making good improvement this offseason.
    Lance? No thanks.

    TJ instead of AJ? Yes please.

    AJ is a good point guard. I've seen him do it.

    It's not his fault we're losing, but he's certainly been, IMO, one of the major reasons. I'd rather see TJ who at least runs the offense, as opposed to the AJ Price "Dribble for 20 seconds, get stuck behind the free throw line, and shoot a really bad 3 pointer" offense.
    Stop quoting people I have on ignore!

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    The Pacers lost because they could not hit enough shots. George was 1 or 2 for 9.
    I am not faulting him much because of his great defense and rebounding and goodness he is a young rookie. Others on the team did not step up either. Tyler has shot very poorly the past 2 games. These are young players really learning what the play-offs are all about. Vogel has done a superb job.
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    So uh...I have a feeling me and the board won't be getting along soon again.

    Well, it was fun while it lasted.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    For those who have not paid attention and it must be a lot of you.

    TJ has played his way on the bench every season he has been here, he earned it.

    I'm done with him, I'll be happy if he never plays another second as a Pacer.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

  7. #30
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    I'm not upset with Vogel but I have to admit: I am not a big believer in AJ Price.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    So uh...I have a feeling me and the board won't be getting along soon again.

    Well, it was fun while it lasted.
    Just remember how young this team is

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    The last play was absolute garbage. Whether that was purely on Vogel, I don't know, but that was a terrible look by Granger. He was well defended and fading away.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    It's not as if Tom Thibodeau drew up some creative, unpredictable play for his team's game winning possession. He gave the ball to Rose and told everyone else to get out of the way.
    That is the luxury you have when you have a player like Rose and we don't have that, so the coach needs to be more creative, not blaming this loss on Vogel but I'm dissapointed that he can only call the same BS Iso plays JOB used to call.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    By the way I don't understand the AJ price complaining, both point guards were garbage, DC fadeway with Rose and Noah on his face had my blood boiling, DC was turning the ball over everytime he had a pick and roll situation, I don't know if anybody got to see it but in that last play Hansbrough was wide open and of course our point guard with no vision didn't see him

  14. #35
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I'm not upset with Vogel but I have to admit: I am not a big believer in AJ Price.
    I don't have a problem with that. I'd be happy to have an upgrade at backup PG, I know that for sure, but I don't know that Vogel would have had any more success with TJ.

    I think there are still upgrades to be made at the PG spot.
    Last edited by Anthem; 04-21-2011 at 11:14 PM.
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I don't have a problem with that. I'd be happy to have an upgrade at backup PG, I know that for sure, but I don't know that Vogel would have had any more success with TJ.
    If you want to upgrade the back up point guard all you have to do is move DC to the bench and bring a real point guard.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    By the way I don't understand the AJ price complaining, both point guards were garbage, DC fadeway with Rose and Noah on his face had my blood boiling, DC was turning the ball over everytime he had a pick and roll situation, I don't know if anybody got to see it but in that last play Hansbrough was wide open and of course our point guard with no vision didn't see him
    DC didn't play great by any stretch, but at least he ran the offense or attempted too. AJ was looking for his shot the whole time. DC definitely played better than AJ did. It's not saying much, but he did.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I don't have a problem with that. I'd be happy to have an upgrade at backup PG, I know that for sure, but I don't know that Vogel would have had any more success with TJ.
    I think Ford would be better defensively. But since we aren't guarding Rose with our PG, the point is probably moot and could be a decent justification for Price over Ford, since Price spaces the floor better.

    But still, I think Ford deserves a look. At the very least, since it's the playoffs, his drives might actually be called fouls. And he has had decent playoff numbers in his career.

  20. #39

    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    By the way I don't understand the AJ price complaining, both point guards were garbage, DC fadeway with Rose and Noah on his face had my blood boiling, DC was turning the ball over everytime he had a pick and roll situation, I don't know if anybody got to see it but in that last play Hansbrough was wide open and of course our point guard with no vision didn't see him
    DC wasn't at full strength this game. So if you weight that, Price was the worst of the two. To me, it was the difference between "out of control" and "not quite there." I think its silly to blame a backup point guard for anything though, unless that backup is playing the same amount of minutes as the starter.

    It's the PG position, so it sticks out. But it really is one of our better positions, particularly when you consider how young these two are. Give them another year and see how they develop. People have been really unfair to both of them. Darren Collison has had 4 (maybe 5) different coaches, with different coaching philosophies, in his second year. The point guard is an extension of the coach on the floor. Good for DC for playing as well as he has. Price, everyone needs to remember that 11 months ago this kid broke his kneecap. So the up and down of his game, from a physical standpoint. I'm not concerned about. I'm a fan of the AJ Price that was a great court general and had a great balance about himself where he knew when to shoot and when to pass, and made very good plays. I still see flashes of that Price, and that AJ needs to come back. Maybe scoring is his role in the second unit. But I have to say, I don't like that. He's a much better player as a "stir the drink/hit big shots when it's needed" kind of pg.

    So in short, because of circumstances, neither have really had time for actual development, but I've seen enough flashes from both and good play from both, to know we've got something worth keeping there. So see how you feel about them, this time next season. There's really no rush, it's not like the Pacers are going to get pieces from other places to be contenders next season.

    If this series has shown me anything, it's that we need an upgrade in our front court. But once again, I'd like to see how Josh, Tyler, and Roy would develop in a full season with a good coach. But we need a defender and a rebounder, and I don't see that coming from any of them.
    Last edited by Sookie; 04-21-2011 at 11:37 PM.

  21. #40
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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    DC was great in Game 1. Seems like a lot of people have forgotten.

    He is clearly not 100%, but I would like for him to look to dish out the ball more like he did in Game 1.

    I worry more about the offensive chemistry when AJ is running the point than I do when DC is out there.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    The PG position isn't even why we lost tonight. Sure we didn't get great play from it, but at least DC hit his shots at a good clip. We needed the rest of the starters to hit their shots.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    DC wasn't at full strength this game. So if you weight that, Price was the worst of the two. To me, it was the difference between "out of control" and "not quite there." I think its silly to blame a backup point guard for anything though, unless that backup is playing the same amount of minutes as the starter.

    It's the PG position, so it sticks out. But it really is one of our better positions, particularly when you consider how young these two are. Give them another year and see how they develop. People have been really unfair to both of them.

    If this series has shown me anything, it's that we need an upgrade in our front court. But once again, I'd like to see how Josh, Tyler, and Roy would develop in a full season with a good coach. But we need a defender and a rebounder, and I don't see that coming from any of them.
    Yeah so if DC is not full strength why play him at all? I don't like TJ but at that point I rather have the healthy poing guard playing and yes I agree with you AJ was worse.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    I'm going to refrain from posting too much about Vogel until after the season, but I will say that we could definitely use a good backup point guard after the season.

    But with Ford gone after this season I'm sure this will be addressed soon.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    The PG position isn't even why we lost tonight. Sure we didn't get great play from it, but at least DC hit his shots at a good clip. We needed the rest of the starters to hit their shots.
    That is the problem, people complaint about Hansbrough not been able to hit his jumper but the problem is that both point guards were giving him the ball in the wrong places and out of rhythm, the same happened with everybody else, the two guys we have don't know how to make a simple pass.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    You can't let aj price do what he's done all 3 games. You cannot let this guy suck the life and every ounce of momentum out of your team like that. You have a veteran pg on the bench that actually runs plays and is much quicker and won't pound the ball for 24 seconds. I'm sorry, you cannot be the coach if you can't see this. You just can't. Price has killed this team.

    Ford has not played in months, he isn't ready to contribute. it isn't the coaches fault

  28. #46

    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    That is the problem, people complaint about Hansbrough not been able to hit his jumper but the problem is that both point guards were giving him the ball in the wrong places and out of rhythm, the same happened with everybody else, the two guys we have don't know how to make a simple pass.
    They were giving him the ball in the same place as they have been all season. Hans is just either cold or hot from those spots.

    My issue with Hans, Josh, and Roy isn't with the offense, so much as the defense and rebounding.

    Really. We're getting slaughtered on the boards. Price actually got 2 less rebounds than Hans in 20 less minutes, and he got more rebounds than Josh in less minutes. They don't ever box out.

    Quite frankly, you wanna blame this series on anything, blame it on the rebounding.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    That is the problem, people complaint about Hansbrough not been able to hit his jumper but the problem is that both point guards were giving him the ball in the wrong places and out of rhythm, the same happened with everybody else, the two guys we have don't know how to make a simple pass.
    Hans and Hibbert had plenty of good looks. Hans even had a couple of good looks that he didn't take. Look, you dont take a combined 24 shots and only make 6. That just is terrible. Add in Paul George who only made 1 of his 9 shots... You can't blame that on DC or AJ. Sure DC wasn't 100%, but he is still the best PG this team has.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    They were giving him the ball in the same place as they have been all season. Hans is just either cold or hot from those spots.

    My issue with Hans, Josh, and Roy isn't with the offense, so much as the defense and rebounding.

    Really. We're getting slaughtered on the boards. Price actually got 2 less rebounds than Hans in 20 less minutes, and he got more rebounds than Josh in less minutes. They don't ever box out.

    Quite frankly, you wanna blame this series on anything, blame it on the rebounding.
    Rebounding has been terrible. So many offensive boards are being given up. Combine it with terrible offense from 3 of the 5 starters and you are gonna lose.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    Hans and Hibbert had plenty of good looks. Hans even had a couple of good looks that he didn't take. Look, you dont take a combined 24 shots and only make 6. That just is terrible. Add in Paul George who only made 1 of his 9 shots... You can't blame that on DC or AJ. Sure DC wasn't 100%, but he is still the best PG this team has.
    6 of 24 shots
    12 combined rebounds

    but its our backup point guard's fault that we lost.

    THIS is why I stick up for DC and AJ. Have they had their absolutely terrible stretches. Yes. Yes they have. Tonight was one of them.

    But the other young guys always seem to get a pass. All of us knowing that they'll develop and they've got potential. To me, this extends to the point guards. Particularly when they are learning the most important position on the floor, and the hardest position on the floor..and neither have had the easiest circumstances to learn them in from the start of their careers.

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    Default Re: Frank Vogel-Great story, not a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    6 of 24 shots
    12 combined rebounds

    but its our backup point guard's fault that we lost.

    THIS is why I stick up for DC and AJ. Have they had their absolutely terrible stretches. Yes. Yes they have. Tonight was one of them.

    But the other young guys always seem to get a pass. All of us knowing that they'll develop and they've got potential. To me, this extends to the point guards. Particularly when they are learning the most important position on the floor, and the hardest position on the floor..and neither have had the easiest circumstances to learn them in from the start of their careers.
    I agree. I do think DC and AJ get more hate than they deserve. They have their terrible moments, AJ had quite a few tonight. But they aren't why we are losing this series. And a lot of the reason they have problems are the same reasons Hans/Hibbert/Paul have theirs. They are young!

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