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Thread: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Chicago fans might be complaining, but their complaints are on calls early in the game. Those don't really matter in the grand scheme. Calls late in the 4th have the utmost importance, and the Pacers didn't get a single call during that stretch.

    Boozer pushed Jeff so hard out of bounds that he had to carry his momentum and walk towards the short corner, but not one single official saw anything?

    Does anyone HONESTLY think that Jeff is just going to lose his balance on his own and go out of bounds on a rebound? Seriously?

    Jeff has some of the best balance when fighting for position in the game. How many times have we seen him arm wrestle a guy get an offensive rebound and a put back with one arm? Uh, a lot.....

    As far as Hibbert, CWebb was correct. Noah wasn't even bodying him up, there was a sizeable gap between their bodies and Hibbert didn't extend his arm. Yes, his forearm was up, but that play happens 10 out of 10 times. You're taught to protect the ball with your off arm, and not extend, in JR high basketball.

    I'm not saying there is a league wide conspiracy. I'm saying refs are smart enough to know that superstars made the league, and are good for the league, and they (and their teams) will get the benefit of the doubt when it matters.

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  3. #152

    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Note the hand into Noah's armpit, creating the space.

    I was literally yelling at the TV that it was a bad call!

    But I think I was wrong.

    Do they always call that? No. Is Noah some overprotected superstar? No. Should they call that? Yes, unfortunately in this instance.

    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 04-19-2011 at 12:28 PM.

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  5. #153
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    I still don't think Hibbert created the space, I think he just was protecting like anyone shooting a hook would do. However, even if he was clearing out/extending, how many times did this happen during the game without a call? Seriously, Rose uses his offhand more than Granger does and I didn't think that was possible. I just can't believe they had the balls to call that down the stretch after letting it go all night.

    Seriously though, thanks for taking the time to post the picture.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    I called the offensive foul as it happened, not sure how anyone could argue it.

    I do wish the refs would call it both ways (and more consistently, if you are going to call that a push off then call both sides pushing off in quarters 1-3 as well)

    As BP and S86 said, well Foster (and Hans) must just have really, really, really bad balance.

    Will be interesting to see if the officiating evens out in Indiana.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    and nobody has ever said that, either
    It might not have been said in as many words, but yes, it has been said (or implied)

  8. #156
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    Note the hand into Noah's armpit, creating the space.

    I was literally yelling at the TV that it was a bad call!

    But I think I was wrong.

    Do they always call that? No. Is Noah some overprotected superstar? No. Should they call that? Yes, unfortunately in this instance.

    Just the contact doesn't make the foul. Did Noah start out closer to Roy and was he4 moved by the hand? No. Did Roy start out with the hand closer and extend it? No. That's why the picture in and of itself, being a just a snapshot of a moment, can't make the argument on its own.

    Even the TNT announcers argued that it wasn't a good offensive foul call for those two reasons.
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Webber made the key point, Noah gave Hibbert the space, Roy did not create it. Did Roy travel before he ever shot? Yeah, pretty blatantly in fact. Roy had happy feet all game. He seriously needs to get his head screwed on straight.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Yeah, that picture doesn't show anything, because the space was already there and it wasn't created.

    When you use your off hand it's not going to be a rigged extremity that keeps it's shape no matter what the circumstances. It's going to be extended until their is contact, but just because there is a hand on his chest doesn't mean he's pushing.

    Noah wasn't moved off his spot, nor did even come close of knocking him off balance. You're allowed to use your off arm, you just can't create space with it. Roy didn't create space.

    Noah wants that space between them, it allows him to jump higher and negate Roy's height advantage.

    You're told to go into a shot blocker because they want/like space between the bodies.

    Basketball is a contact sport. It's not a collision sport like football, but it's a contact sport. There's going to be contact on every play. Not every contact is a foul.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    It's also important to ask, did Roy gain some advantage by his arm being there? I don't think so, not with how far away Noah was as Roy started the move.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    I think that still fram answers that question too. Noah's shoulders are square above his torso, and his back isn't arched. If he's getting pushed then he's fully contracted his whole body like a board, and his whole body moved off the spot.

  15. #161

    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by BPump33 View Post
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    I guess what I'm saying is that Boozer/Rose/Granger all three push off all game long with their off hand and they don't call that, but they call it down the stretch when I truly didn't think it was nearly as bad as some that went uncalled. I think that's cheap as hell. I also respect your opinion, but I don't feel like Roy truly extended that arm.
    he did extend the arm. you could see it from the baseline shot.

    everybody fouls every play in the paint in the playoffs. that's what physical play causes.

    my biggest problem with the officiating in the 2nd game was how the entire game was officiated. the officials in the 2nd game were trying to make calls. looking for a reason to make a call. in the first game, the officials were looking for reasons not to make a call.

    my thinking was the age/experience level of the 2nd group was less than the 1st. the younger officials were more like college officials in the NCAA's. they were trying too hard to officiate the game as opposed to letting the game happen and reacting to what happens.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    It's also important to ask, did Roy gain some advantage by his arm being there? I don't think so, not with how far away Noah was as Roy started the move.

    That is the correct question, and I agree did not not

    However I think he did gain an avantage on that play because he clearly traveled.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    my biggest problem with the officiating in game 2 was how long it took rose to get called for his 3rd foul. things like that won't show up in statistics, but rose absolutely fouled price on a drive in the 2nd quarter and they instead credited brewer with the foul, when he wasn't even near price. numerous times after that, he hit aj when he was shooting a three, still no call. he pushes off paul george, no call. he literally hits collison in the face, no call. then when he finally gets called for fouling aj on the three when the game was basically over, he has the nerve to complain.

    all i'm asking for is consistency. if you call fouls like roy's offensive foul, rose would have fouled out in the first half.

    also, does any player carry the ball more than rose? i thought iverson was bad in his days, but wow. he palms the ball nearly every other dribble.

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  19. #164

    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Couple of points.

    No not now, the refs are capable nor have they been trained to call an NBA game like the late great earl strom. I realize those days are long gone and won't ever come back.

    On the star player thing some players are allowed to do twhat they do. Like Patrick Ewing travel almost every play, Reggie traveled a lot also. But I don't consider those star calls, just they were allowed to do what they did almost every play. I would have to go back and watch some old foilm, but probably a player like Shandon Anderosn was allowed to get away with his move. I mean are you going to call Ewing for traveling 10 times a game. No

    Although really the refs are going away from that type of thing, so while I don't think the games are officiated any better than they used to be the direction they are headed is probably more to most of your liking. You see more fouls called at the end of games. You see more traveling, you see a much more standardized system of officiating

    I would argue though you are taking away the refs ability to think reason and are training them to be robots.
    Then how did three refs agree that was a foul on Hibbert (they had time to consult, and it clearly wasn't a foul, but George did get fouled on his put back) and Foster gets shoved to the floor by Boozer and loses the ball out of bounds because of it and all three refs swallowed the whistle (it was a clear foul). There is just no way three professional NBA refs who are supposed to be "the best in the world" all missed both calls. The odds of all three refs missing both calls would be in the 1 in a million category. This has happened more than once in this series. It can't be a coincidence.

    The league knew if they didn't make this thing 8 vs 5 then their precious Bulls would be down 2-0 on their way to the rowdiest Fieldhouse in a decade. I'm sorry Uncle Buck, but if I believed you on other posts, I would believe.

    1. Job was not the problem. Frank Vogel has proven he was.
    2. Our players we have now are not good enough to compete for a championship one day. You admitted this playoff series you were wrong.
    3. Murphy deserved to play over Hansbrough, McRoberts and Hibbert.

    Sorry I refuse to believe you on this one and I think if you look at how you have been wrong on things you argued to death before, maybe you could take some real insight into what's really going on. You really think the millions of dollars bet on games/made by teams still don't influence who is going to get the calls or not? Then I'm sorry Buck, you are lost and there is no hope in ever enlightening you unless the FBI busts the whole league open but I think they just used Tim as the fall guy IMO. I believe what he says, because I've witnessed it with my own eyes.

    UncleBuck, I think your eyes are playing tricks on you again. JOB was the problem, our players can compete for a championship, Murphy should have been benched years ago, and we are down 0-2 because of the refs' superstar treatment of Rose (calling ticky tack fouls on us, while allowing him to clearly foul our players and not even get whistled.) It's not like I'm asking for them to call ticky tack fouls on Rose and foul him out every game, but if they are going to call these fouls on us, Rose would have been fouled out at least once in this series. They also are giving unfair calls at the most oppurtune times to all the Bulls.

    See Buck, it doesn't matter if they call a fair foul when we are up by 8 and the game isn't even close to over, if in crunch time late in the 4th they will go out of their way to give every call they possibly can to the Bulls. This has happened three games in a row against the Bulls. It is not a coincidence. Calling me crazy on this is like everyone who called me crazy when I said the young guys will compete one day and they were that good. Well look who's laughing now
    Last edited by Midcoasted; 04-20-2011 at 03:34 AM.

  20. #165

    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
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    my biggest problem with the officiating in game 2 was how long it took rose to get called for his 3rd foul. things like that won't show up in statistics, but rose absolutely fouled price on a drive in the 2nd quarter and they instead credited brewer with the foul, when he wasn't even near price. numerous times after that, he hit aj when he was shooting a three, still no call. he pushes off paul george, no call. he literally hits collison in the face, no call. then when he finally gets called for fouling aj on the three when the game was basically over, he has the nerve to complain.

    all i'm asking for is consistency. if you call fouls like roy's offensive foul, rose would have fouled out in the first half.

    also, does any player carry the ball more than rose? i thought iverson was bad in his days, but wow. he palms the ball nearly every other dribble.
    It has become ridiculous I'm afraid. Everything you said is the truth. Don't let this rest. We as fans deserve better. Let Unclebuck keep shilling for TPTB. It is clear the only reason we are not up 2-0 is because it is 8 vs 5. The league hath made it so.

  21. #166
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Midcoasted View Post
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    It has become ridiculous I'm afraid. Everything you said is the truth. Don't let this rest. We as fans deserve better. Let Unclebuck keep shilling for TPTB. It is clear the only reason we are not up 2-0 is because it is 8 vs 5. The league hath made it so.
    I see what I see.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
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    my biggest problem with the officiating in game 2 was how long it took rose to get called for his 3rd foul. things like that won't show up in statistics, but rose absolutely fouled price on a drive in the 2nd quarter and they instead credited brewer with the foul, when he wasn't even near price. numerous times after that, he hit aj when he was shooting a three, still no call. he pushes off paul george, no call. he literally hits collison in the face, no call. then when he finally gets called for fouling aj on the three when the game was basically over, he has the nerve to complain.

    all i'm asking for is consistency. if you call fouls like roy's offensive foul, rose would have fouled out in the first half.

    also, does any player carry the ball more than rose? i thought iverson was bad in his days, but wow. he palms the ball nearly every other dribble.
    All of us were extremely confused by the 3rd foul call on Rose that went to Brewer. Anyone have video on that? I don't remember them showing a replay and it was right before a commercial.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Not sure if cherry-picking is fair. Why not go through every single play, every single call, every single non-call. If someone does that I'll listen

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Not sure if cherry-picking is fair. Why not go through every single play, every single call, every single non-call. If someone does that I'll listen
    Huh?

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Not sure if cherry-picking is fair. Why not go through every single play, every single call, every single non-call. If someone does that I'll listen
    I think I have said before I would love to do a project like that (with a group of arbitrary fans, so a Pacers fan could not do a Pacers game and a Bulls fan could not do a Bulls game)

    If I had the disposable income I would do that in a heart beat.

    Hell, if there is a NBA season next year I may just do a blog and choose one or two games a week to do just that.

    Would be interesting to see if anyone would take notice.

  26. #171

    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    game 3

    thought the game was officiated reasonably.

    but there was one interesting subplot. mike callahan and ken mauer. a couple of veteran officials.

    it seemed to me, mauer was trying to be the star of the game. making all the calls, big dramatic gestures, over officiating

    as opposed to callahan who just watched the game and made the calls as they happened. i much prefer the official that lets the game happen instead of trying to be the center of attention. nice job by mike.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    I missed the first quarter and 2 minutes of the second, but I thought the game was officiated nicely.

    I missed if Foster and Rose got double techs (I thought if anything Rose should have got one and foster a personal and that's it) but besides that play I thought they did a decent job.

    A few missed calls on the inside (esp when McRoberts got elbowed in the face) but I am glad they let them play.

  28. #173
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Game 3 is the heartbreaker from an officiating standpoint. The did a good job the whole game up until the 4th where they missed 2 key travels. The one where deng took three steps driving across the lane for his little pull up jumper. Then of course the play that won the game.



    Is that a superstar call or did the ref not see it? How could he not see if you can see him right there in the bottom of the frame. He has essentially a better viewing angle than the TV Cameras on this one. He could clearly see one leg land after another, and not at the same time. Perhaps he was too focused on calling a foul for any sort of contact made to Derrick Rose, again some people say the super star treatment does not exists. BUT IT DOES.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 04-22-2011 at 08:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    You have a better shot at winning the lottery than seeing traveling called in the NBA, especially on a potential game-winning bucket by the MVP.

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