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Thread: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    We had a 10pt lead with 3:30 left we our offense stalls in the final few mins. Chicago has a closer we dont. But that was a pretty bad we did today. Cant blame the refs it's the players and coaches fault.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    We had a 10pt lead with 3:30 left we our offense stalls in the final few mins. Chicago has a closer we dont. But that was a pretty bad we did today. Cant blame the refs it's the players and coaches fault.
    I don't see why referees can't be faulted if they make bad calls. Explain why referees are never blameworthy or subject to account.
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 04-17-2011 at 01:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    The 16-1 finish had nothing to do with poor officiating IMO, and counting up fouls called, as if everyone plays the same way, is the most useless piece of evidence ever to gauge the fairness of officiating.
    What metric would you use to gauge the fairness of officiating? Or is there one? Or if there is no metric, how would you gauge it? Or do you just accept the referees, like the Pope, as infallible and move on?

    If there is a vast disparity in fouls assessed between teams, or all fouls are assessed in favor of one player, can that ever be a prima facie metric for examination of fairness?

    I agree that there can be shades of grey. I also like to think I know the difference between night and day. No charges called on Rose. 21 foul shots assessed against the Pacers on his takes to the basket. No star treatment? No unfairness? It's all perfectly fair?
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 04-17-2011 at 02:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I thought the refs were pretty good.

    But even if I didn't. I think complaining about the refs is what the losers do
    I think that is naive if the playing field is not the same for everyone.. Is the assumption you are making is that the referring is the same for all?

    Why should winners complain if they are undeservingly getting the breaks?

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    As I said in another thread, the call I have the most problem with is when Rose initiates contact on a set defender who is not moving and is standing straight up, but because he can bring his body around at an angle before the contact he gets the call.

    I just don't see how this is a defensive foul. I can see the no-call for the charge, as the offensive player is (usually) avoiding direct contact, but if the defender's space is now being narrowed not just to where his body remains still but also only the front part of that body, there's a huge problem.
    Too bad our defenders were basically never set. I agree with Hoya on the Dunleavy call and they also missed one when Rush was set and took a knee to the chest in the 1st half. Although *****y, IMO, 2 first half calls weren't the difference in a 1-16 meltdown. Not that anyone disputes that.

    Simply put, it's tough to draw a charge on Rose. He's fast to the point where he will beat you to the spot before you can get set.

    I hate to say it, but that last and 1 against Roy was even a correct call. He gave Rose a hip check (feet moving, arms straight up).

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau87 View Post
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    Too bad our defenders were basically never set. I agree with Hoya on the Dunleavy call and they also missed one when Rush was set and took a knee to the chest in the 1st half. Although *****y, IMO, 2 first half calls weren't the difference in a 1-16 meltdown. Not that anyone disputes that.

    Simply put, it's tough to draw a charge on Rose. He's fast to the point where he will beat you to the spot before you can get set.

    I hate to say it, but that last and 1 against Roy was even a correct call. He gave Rose a hip check (feet moving, arms straight up).
    On the other hand, if those 2 first half calls are charges, then the game changes a lot. Rose can't continue penetrating with impunity as he risks picking up more calls. It's too easy to just say a couple of early missed calls don't matter.

    My only consolation in rehashing all this is that perhaps, in some parallel universe, the right calls are being made and, to everyone's surprise, the Pacers win Game One against the Eastern Conference Champs and the polluted Chicago River is glutted with the bloated bodies of suicidal Bulls fans and their bandwagon cousins from Indianapolis.
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 04-17-2011 at 02:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau87 View Post
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    Too bad our defenders were basically never set. I agree with Hoya on the Dunleavy call and they also missed one when Rush was set and took a knee to the chest in the 1st half. Although *****y, IMO, 2 first half calls weren't the difference in a 1-16 meltdown. Not that anyone disputes that.

    Simply put, it's tough to draw a charge on Rose. He's fast to the point where he will beat you to the spot before you can get set.

    I hate to say it, but that last and 1 against Roy was even a correct call. He gave Rose a hip check (feet moving, arms straight up).
    One may not have anything to do with another however you can not say that Rose being called for two charges in the first half would not have changed the look of the game.

    He then has to start thinking about what he is doing instead of just being able just throw himself into defenders knowing that he is going to get the foul called on them.


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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    It could be a lot worse. Check out the Blazers/Mavs 4th quarter last night. The free throw disparity: 19 to 2 in favor of the home team. And the Mavs are primarily a jump shooting team, while the Blazers lived in the paint.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    One may not have anything to do with another however you can not say that Rose being called for two charges in the first half would not have changed the look of the game.

    He then has to start thinking about what he is doing instead of just being able just throw himself into defenders knowing that he is going to get the foul called on them.
    What kind of look were you hoping for? Up 10 with 3 mins and 30 seconds to go not a good enough look.

    Those 2 calls were bang bang plays anyway. As fans we know refs aren't perfect. Again I hate to say it, but a beauty of D Rose's game is that he can force refs into making imperfect calls due to his quickness. I can't fault him or the refs for that. That's why they're called tough calls.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau87 View Post
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    What kind of look were you hoping for? Up 10 with 3 mins and 30 seconds to go not a good enough look.

    Those 2 calls were bang bang plays anyway. As fans we know refs aren't perfect. Again I hate to say it, but a beauty of D Rose's game is that he can force refs into making imperfect calls due to his quickness. I can't fault him or the refs for that. That's why they're called tough calls.
    Again I agree that the final 3 min. was not ref induced.

    However is it wrong to ask would he have had the game he had if he had been given two charging fouls. I don't remember exactly but I think both of the fouls you are refering two ended up as and 1 plays. That's six points, take six points away and how does the game change? Even if they were not and 1's take four points away and how does the game change?

    I am not blaming the referee's for the loss, see my odd thoughts post for that, but I can't say that it wasn't a factor either.


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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Nope...Barry REALLY didn't know that much about the Pacers. For a NATIONAL televised game, Barry was CLEARLY in favor of the Bulls. When I watched the Bulls/Pacers games and gotten the Chicago feed, they're commentary wasn't as bad as Barry's was.

    The way Barry was talking, I would have expected that from a local televised game, and NOT from a national televised game.
    I'm honestly surprised most Pacers fans didn't mute the TV and listen to Mark Boyle on the radio. That's what I would have done. Your last sentence is dead-on, and I'm not a fan of either team.

    As far as the refs, I didn't think they had much of an impact on the outcome. Although I was mildly amused at the trio assigned to that game, and was shocked that Violet Palmer got assigned to a playoff game.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau87 View Post
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    What kind of look were you hoping for? Up 10 with 3 mins and 30 seconds to go not a good enough look.

    Those 2 calls were bang bang plays anyway. As fans we know refs aren't perfect. Again I hate to say it, but a beauty of D Rose's game is that he can force refs into making imperfect calls due to his quickness. I can't fault him or the refs for that. That's why they're called tough calls.
    I don't think thats what he meant. If Rose picked up two offensive fouls from driving in the first half, his whole game becomes different because he has to be more careful as he is in foul trouble. He can't just fly into the lane and expect to draw the foul, which is what happened yesterday. He would always be risking the offensive foul. It would have been a very different game we saw from Rose. And considering his outside shot wasn't falling, it would have been to our advantage.

    Also our bigs wouldn't have been in as much foul trouble. Hibbert had to sit for awhile with his fouls. Having him in the game more would have helped us as well.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau87 View Post
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    What kind of look were you hoping for? Up 10 with 3 mins and 30 seconds to go not a good enough look.

    Those 2 calls were bang bang plays anyway. As fans we know refs aren't perfect. Again I hate to say it, but a beauty of D Rose's game is that he can force refs into making imperfect calls due to his quickness. I can't fault him or the refs for that. That's why they're called tough calls.
    Did you think we had that game won at the 3:30 mark? I sure didn't. I figured there'd be some sort of Bulls comeback. I had my hopes, but the way Rose was getting to the line, I figured the 3:30 would last around 10 minutes. And it did.

    Virtually all fouls in the NBA are of the "bang bang" variety. Rose got the benefit of every bang. I just checked. There were zero charging calls on him all game.

    "Tough calls" are usually a euphemism for a refereeing mistake. And I don't see why one can't fault a referee for making a mistake. NBA refs are vaunted as "the best in the business," the "top of the line", the "pinnacles of the refereeing profession." Yet it's the same old thing. Rose, LeBron, Nowitzky, the Star treatment. If the refs won't call a charge on Rose, then, as Peck said, he's just going to continue taking it inside seeking or making contact secure in the knowledge that he'll get to shoot FTs.

    Yeah, the Bulls played tough over the last 3:30. But they also got virtually every call during that period too. The lone exception was one Noah shooting foul on Roy. The blatant hack on Collison at the 1:30 mark wasn't called and it was pivotal. It led to a Rose fast-break layup that let Chicago tie the game instead of us potentially going up 4. It was an horrendously bad no-call.

    There wasn't much equity in the last couple of minutes. And it wasn't all Bull poise and Pacer ineptitude.
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 04-17-2011 at 03:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Again I agree that the final 3 min. was not ref induced.

    However is it wrong to ask would he have had the game he had if he had been given two charging fouls. I don't remember exactly but I think both of the fouls you are refering two ended up as and 1 plays. That's six points, take six points away and how does the game change? Even if they were not and 1's take four points away and how does the game change?

    I am not blaming the referee's for the loss, see my odd thoughts post for that, but I can't say that it wasn't a factor either.
    I agree, it's not wrong to ask/question. That's what fans of the losing team do. I played the what if game for hours following the tough loss.

    Nonetheless, we can complain/wish/hope/criticize/point out factors (insert a better word if you have one) until the cows come home but it doesn't change the fact that calls like that are basically written in stone when you have a player like Rose (someone athletic enough to force tough calls). It's a great and overlooked asset of his game.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau87 View Post
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    I agree, it's not wrong to ask/question. That's what fans of the losing team do. I played the what if game for hours following the tough loss.

    Nonetheless, we can complain/wish/hope/criticize/point out factors (insert a better word if you have one) until the cows come home but it doesn't change the fact that calls like that are basically written in stone when you have a player like Rose (someone athletic enough to force tough calls). It's a great and overlooked asset of his game.
    Phil Jackson is very good at "complaining" about unfair advantages, getting himself fined, and setting the stage for more equitable calls favoring the lakers. he puts the refs on notice that he will not let them get away with the star treatments, walks, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    I don't think thats what he meant. If Rose picked up two offensive fouls from driving in the first half, his whole game becomes different because he has to be more careful as he is in foul trouble. He can't just fly into the lane and expect to draw the foul, which is what happened yesterday. He would always be risking the offensive foul. It would have been a very different game we saw from Rose. And considering his outside shot wasn't falling, it would have been to our advantage.

    Also our bigs wouldn't have been in as much foul trouble. Hibbert had to sit for awhile with his fouls. Having him in the game more would have helped us as well.
    IndyHoya and ilive4sports:

    I understand how things would have been different.

    With that said, we were still up 10 with 3 and half min to go and had every opportunity to close out the game. In that same closing stretch there were no bad calls made against the Pacers. We choked because our coach and players lack playoff experience.

    IMO, Korver cleanly poked the ball away from Collison. He caught some arm after Collison flailed for no reason (other then to draw an undeserved foul). Didn't really see a definitive replay so I could be wrong.

    Also IMO, there's a difference between star treatment and creating a tough call situation due to athleticism.
    Last edited by Thoreau87; 04-17-2011 at 03:54 PM. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    You really do not like Pacer fans very much do you?
    Incessant whining about biased and even fixed officiating was not always one of the defining characteristics of Pacers fans. It has unfortunately crept in, perhaps first spurred by legit anger at the awful LJ 4 point play. It's taken hold of late. One reason is perhaps overlap with the Colts fanbase, who have long embraced a paranoid attitude towards officials and been encouraged by team officials like Polian to do so. I don't think Larry Bird is an excuse-maker, and I wish fewer fans were also not prone to seeing officiating conspiracies lurking behind every tough defeat.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 04-17-2011 at 04:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Phil Jackson is very good at "complaining" about unfair advantages, getting himself fined, and setting the stage for more equitable calls favoring the lakers. he puts the refs on notice that he will not let them get away with the star treatments, walks, etc.
    Can Vogel afford the fine ?

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau87 View Post
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    IndyHoya and ilive4sports:

    I understand how things would have been different.

    With that said, we were still up 10 with 3 and half min to go and had every opportunity to close out the game. In that same closing stretch there were no bad calls made against the Pacers. We choked because our coach and players lack playoff experience.

    IMO, Korver cleanly poked the ball away from Collison. He caught some arm after Collison flailed for no reason (other then to draw an undeserved foul). Didn't really see a definitive replay so I could be wrong.

    Also IMO, there's a difference between star treatment and creating a tough call situation due to athleticism.
    Thoreau, you're VERY wrong about that being a "clean" poke. It was a clear hack across both arms as he was going up for a shot. It was one of the most blatant fouls of the game. I've been reliving it in my mind over and over again. As I type this I can see the arm going across both of Collison's. And watching the resulting fast break that I'm pretty sure tied the game at that point. It makes my insides cringe as I sit here thinking about it. It was a VERY, VERY, VERY bad no call.

    I'm not the only one here that's mentioned it, either. Sookie talked about it in one of her earlier posts. I was watching the game at BWW and I remember turning to Chris Denari and he was shaking his head in total disbelief.

    And really, not calling fouls on "stars" is part of what star treatment is. Free trips to the line, the benefit of all doubts, the edge in every close call. Rose is everything you say, fast, good first step, strong, savvy. He's also Chicago's new Jordan and getting all the media hype that accompanies that. No star treatment? You've mentioned yourself that he probably charged at least twice (and I think maybe a couple of other times as well. I really would like to see a compendium of the fouls he got the benefit of). It isn't all his athleticism. He was given 21 foul shots. 21 21 21. Nothing like that has happened in nearly 10 years of playoff ball.

    And not one charge in that mix? No reach-ins while guarding Collison either? No star treatment? Just "tough" call situations?

    Come on, my brother. Be not naive. A star is born! Hark! I perceive a new star rising in the East! Nay, tis not a star, tis a nova! Nay a Supernova and 'tis of a rosy color and it looms over that Windy City. Tis the rebirth of MJ! Tis history repeating itself. Tis a new media darling rising whom we can all worship and adore by buying his shoes!
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 04-17-2011 at 04:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    Incessant whining about biased and even fixed officiating was not always one of the defining characteristics of Pacers fans. It has unfortunately crept in, perhaps first spurred by legit anger at the awful LJ 4 point play. It's taken hold of late. One reason is perhaps overlap with the Colts fanbase, who have long embraced a paranoid attitude towards officials and been encouraged by team officials like Polian to do so. I don't think Larry Bird is an excuse-maker, and I wish fewer fans were also not prone to seeing officiating conspiracies lurking behind every tough defeat.
    No one here has mentioned any conspiracy. Occam's Razor would point to another answer -- which has been mentioned here. Ineptitude. Violet Palmer, Joey Crawford, and Bennett Salvatore inspired ineptitude. That and star-inspired inevitability. And if we think the officiating is wanting in the process, do we just say nothing? Why? I admit it probably does no good. But if the officiating stinks, we, as fans, certainly have every right to complain about it. It's about the only right as fans that we have.

    But while I reject any major conspiracies, I think that there really is a "go along and get along" chumminess that pervades the playoffs. And from that emerges a sense of inevitability. A sense that results are basically foreordained.

    We go through 82 games to reach Nirvana -- being in the playoffs. Then, particularly in the First Round, everything spins into a sort of inevitable cycle - where intense games ensue with lowly underdog teams matched up against teams with superstars, -- superstars that for some reason get to play by their own sets of rules. And these stars are usually ensconced in major-market cities where they get big media hype. And because they're stars, it's OK that they get the benefit of all close calls. And the have-not teams, like Indiana, just have to lump it because, hey, that's the way it is. Their teams don't have stars and no one cares about you if you're from a town with a population of under 2 Million.

    Rules-Shmoolz! Rules are different for the stars. We have to keep those stars shining, don't we? And besides, as stars, they are better than everyone else. Hence they deserve to get those "tough calls." And those big advertising contracts.

    And the same NBA refs keep officiating the same games in the same old way -- getting older, making the same stupid calls without any perceived ill effect or consequences, merrily avoiding controversies by inevitably calling things the star's way. In this fashion, no boats are rocked. The right teams always win. No feathers are ruffled. No inconvenient upsets ensue. And one star's or another star's team is usually crowned as the new NBA Champ. And all the major markets and advertising people are happy, happy, happy. And David Stern is happy. And the big town owners are happy too.

    And so it goes. We move on to next year's 82-game season wondering what new LeBron, what new Kobe, what new Carmelo, or what new Derrick Rose will emerge from what new big media market and what he will do to win that next NBA championship. And so on. And so on. And we in small-market areas hope too. We always hope.

    So it's not really a refereeing conspiracy - the star treatment. It's more just taking the path of least resistance. And if Derrick Rose gets to go to the free throw line 21 times against 8th seed Indiana in this state of affairs, well, that's just the way it goes.

    There will be no ill effects. Violet, Joey, and Bennett will go on to referee another day and everyone will be happy, happy, happy except star-less teams like the Pacers and their hopeful fans.
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 04-17-2011 at 07:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyHoya View Post
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    Thoreau, you're VERY wrong about that being a "clean" poke. It was a clear hack across both arms as he was going up for a shot. It was one of the most blatant fouls of the game. I've been reliving it in my mind over and over again. As I type this I can see the arm going across both of Collison's. And watching the resulting fast break that I'm pretty sure tied the game at that point. It makes my insides cringe as I sit here thinking about it. It was a VERY, VERY, VERY bad no call.

    I'm not the only one here that's mentioned it, either. Sookie talked about it in one of her earlier posts. I was watching the game at BWW and I remember turning to Chris Denari and he was shaking his head in total disbelief.

    And really, not calling fouls on "stars" is part of what star treatment is. Free trips to the line, the benefit of all doubts, the edge in every close call. Rose is everything you say, fast, good first step, strong, savvy. He's also Chicago's new Jordan and getting all the media hype that accompanies that. No star treatment? You've mentioned yourself that he probably charged at least twice (and I think maybe a couple of other times as well. I really would like to see a compendium of the fouls he got the benefit of). It isn't all his athleticism. He was given 21 foul shots. 21 21 21. Nothing like that has happened in nearly 10 years of playoff ball.

    And not one charge in that mix? No reach-ins while guarding Collison either? No star treatment? Just "tough" call situations?

    Come on, my brother. Be not naive. A star is born! Hark! I perceive a new star rising in the East! Nay, tis not a star, tis a nova! Nay a Supernova and 'tis of a rosy color and it looms over that Windy City. Tis the rebirth of MJ! Tis history repeating itself. Tis a new media darling rising whom we can all worship and adore by buying his shoes!
    Like I said, I didn't get a definitive look at the Collison play and very well could be wrong.

    I agree completely with your definition of a "star call" or "star treatment".

    Still, the close calls I described (only 2 possible charges) could both be attributed to his athleticism making it extremely tough on a referee to call a charge. There's bang bang and Derrick Rose bang bang. The kid creates his own luck through physical dominance. Not saying being the heir (air) apparent to the GOAT doesn't help but every call that goes against our beloved Pacers can't be written off as a "star call".

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    The last 3 minutes may not be able to be blamed on the refs, but the Bulls even being within reach to come back during the last three minutes can be. Without Rose getting every single call, most of them either being non-fouls or charging fouls suddenly instead of the Pacers only being up 10 points they are up 20 points, and it is a completely different game. The refs may not have been the difference at the end, but they were the difference for the previous 45 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau87 View Post
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    Like I said, I didn't get a definitive look at the Collison play and very well could be wrong.

    I agree completely with your definition of a "star call" or "star treatment".

    Still, the close calls I described (only 2 possible charges) could both be attributed to his athleticism making it extremely tough on a referee to call a charge. There's bang bang and Derrick Rose bang bang. The kid creates his own luck through physical dominance. Not saying being the heir (air) apparent to the GOAT doesn't help but every call that goes against our beloved Pacers can't be written off as a "star call".
    I didn't see very many close calls. I know I am young, but maybe old guys just don't have the eyes to see those close calls as clearly as a younger person. If that is the case they probably shouldn't be NBA refs.

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    Member ilive4sports's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoreau87 View Post
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    IndyHoya and ilive4sports:

    I understand how things would have been different.

    With that said, we were still up 10 with 3 and half min to go and had every opportunity to close out the game. In that same closing stretch there were no bad calls made against the Pacers. We choked because our coach and players lack playoff experience.

    IMO, Korver cleanly poked the ball away from Collison. He caught some arm after Collison flailed for no reason (other then to draw an undeserved foul). Didn't really see a definitive replay so I could be wrong.

    Also IMO, there's a difference between star treatment and creating a tough call situation due to athleticism.
    No doubt that the Pacers need to play better down the line. It's been a problem all season long. But even with the refs not making any bad calls in the last 3 minutes, the tempo and standards were already set. Rose got into the lane at the end of the game. Had the tone been set that he needs to be more cautious in his drives because he can pick up an offensive foul, attacking the basket would have been less of an option.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I didn't see very many close calls. I know I am young, but maybe old guys just don't have the eyes to see those close calls as clearly as a younger person. If that is the case they probably shouldn't be NBA refs.
    Once an NBA ref, always an NBA ref unless you get caught gambling on NBA games that you ref. That's against the rules. Otherwise, NBA refereeing is a lifetime meal ticket, deterioration of your vision, movement, bowels and thought processes notwithstanding. Age is no consideration. In the NBA, referees age like a fine wine. The older you are the better. With age comes "experience". If you're a demented, incontinent octogenarian, that's a plus for an NBA refereeing resume.
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 04-17-2011 at 07:51 PM.

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