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Thread: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

  1. #26
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Rose is a contact artist. It's pretty much half his game. Drive 200 mph into a crowd of people so fast that they can't set their feet, and just careen off them while throwing a shot towards the basket, go to line, shoot two free throws. The refs will call it 99 times out of 100 in favor of Rose. He figured that out, and he's milking it. They *are* fouls. He's drawing them.

    It works.... and it kinda sucks. What are ya gonna do. Iverson was much the same, except I can honestly say Iverson had a lot more actual skill than Rose. Rose is just bigger and stronger.

    The plow-into-a-crowd-and-shoot-free-throws tactic also seems to be Chicago's playoff gameplan... it's not gonna take 'em far, imo. It'll work against these young Pacers, especially while the NBA world is riding high on Rose-mania, but I still think the Pacers are going to continue to give them massive fits, and next round, Chicago is going to be in trouble. Rose can't drop 40 every game. At some point in time, this schtick just isn't gonna work.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 04-16-2011 at 11:32 PM.
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  3. #27
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    I posted this in another thread, but have re-watched the entire game and Rose was fouled another half-dozen times when fouls were not called.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I thought the refs were pretty good.

    But even if I didn't. I think complaining about the refs is what the losers do
    Quite frankly, other than the superstar calls (and the terrible missed Collison call), they were decent.

    Thing is, the superstar calls were a guarantee. Maybe if people make a big fuss about the free throw difference it'll be a bit better. But I doubt it.

    It's not to say that the refs were the cause. But the refs certainly helped Chicago's cause when Chicago needed it.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyHoya View Post
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    Could it ever be worse than that?
    Sure it can. I've heard high school students call basketball games on high school radio stations with less homerism than Jon Barry did today!
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  6. #30
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Sure it can. I've heard high school students call basketball games on high school radio stations with less homerism than Jon Barry did today!

    I didn't notice it

  7. #31
    You Did It Joseph!!!! AesopRockOn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I didn't notice it
    It wasn't so much homerism as much as it was a Bulls-centric broadcast. Every time they went to commercial, every single storyline that was mentioned was Bulls-related. My friend who is a Bulls fan texted me during the game, "Barry isn't giving the Pacers enough credit." It wasn't offensive as much as it was ignorant. There were also about seven instances when Barry mentioned that "maybe this is the sequence that will finally spark the Bulls' comeback." It was not conducive to enjoyment for a Pacers fan.

  8. #32
    Release Psycho T pwee31's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I posted this in another thread, but have re-watched the entire game and Rose was fouled another half-dozen times when fouls were not called.
    So did I, and so was Hansbrough... except Tyler didn't take 21 Free Throws

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    It wasn't so much homerism as much as it was a Bulls-centric broadcast. Every time they went to commercial, every single storyline that was mentioned was Bulls-related. My friend who is a Bulls fan texted me during the game, "Barry isn't giving the Pacers enough credit." It wasn't offensive as much as it was ignorant. There were also about seven instances when Barry mentioned that "maybe this is the sequence that will finally spark the Bulls' comeback." It was not conducive to enjoyment for a Pacers fan.
    I'm sure a lot of Pacers fans agreed with Barry and I'm sure most of the non-Pacers fans who were watching agreed with Barry

  10. #34

    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    The commentating was funny..because I swear, as soon as the commentators started almost rooting for the Pacers, the Bulls went on their run.

    Also, I'm sure Rose was technically fouled a half a dozen more times (probably more) than was called. But he wasn't fouled more than the entire Pacers team put together. He also commits a lot more fouls than are ever called on him. (Constantly reaching in and committing charges)

  11. #35
    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Honestly, I didn't think the officiating was that bad. Especially considering who the officials were.

    Though, both of those "blocks" by Noah on McBob at the end were fouls. He never even touched the ball.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    I just can't respect any ref that throws Tim Duncan out of a game for doing absolutely nothing... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF-97F00t8E

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Repost from another thread...

    Personally, I don't want to completely blame the refs. I thought the refs made better calls in the 2nd half, then the 1st half. David Stern probably made the call, and let the refs know that we have another potential Bulls vs. Celtics series going WITH a good storyline.

    # 1 Seed with the presumed MVP
    # 8 Seed with a young, rookie coach for a team entering the playoffs after 5 years
    Indiana the only team to have a Game 7 against the Championship Bulls
    Jordan vs. Miller angle
    A potential # 8 upset of the # 1
    Can Rose maintain his performance to take his team past the Pacers?
    Psycho T arguably being the most decorated college player ever


    Honestly, I can see the calls getting BETTER in order to extend this series, if the games remain competitive each time. The only questionable calls for me was when Granger was mugged on a drive and the traveling call on Collison. If we get blown out in one those games.....

  16. #39
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'm sure a lot of Pacers fans agreed with Barry and I'm sure most of the non-Pacers fans who were watching agreed with Barry
    Nope...Barry REALLY didn't know that much about the Pacers. For a NATIONAL televised game, Barry was CLEARLY in favor of the Bulls. When I watched the Bulls/Pacers games and gotten the Chicago feed, they're commentary wasn't as bad as Barry's was.

    The way Barry was talking, I would have expected that from a local televised game, and NOT from a national televised game.
    Last edited by ksuttonjr76; 04-17-2011 at 11:33 AM.

  17. #40

    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I thought the refs were pretty good.

    But even if I didn't. I think complaining about the refs is what the losers do
    Weren't watching the same game I was then.

    Rose got away with the same nonsense when we won in OT here.

    Complaining about the refs is legitimate if they're truly bad (or like T Donaghy, crooked)...winning and losing is immaterial to the argument.

  18. #41
    Member IndyHoya's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by kellogg View Post
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    Weren't watching the same game I was then.

    Rose got away with the same nonsense when we won in OT here.

    Complaining about the refs is legitimate if they're truly bad (or like T Donaghy, crooked)...winning and losing is immaterial to the argument.
    Rose's 19 made free throws were the most by any player in a playoff game since Allen Iverson made the number back in 2002 while he was still with the Philadelphia 76ers. Voila! A new star is born!

    I would like to see a video replay of all those fouls that gave rise to his 21 FT attempts. Maybe it's my imagination, but to me Rose almost always goes up right and wards off with his left hand. As someone also pointed out, he gets calls when sliding over to avoid square contact but hitting a positioned defender while sliding sideways -- something that should either be a charge or a non-call under standard rules.

    For anyone that's interested, here's a pretty good video on the difference between a charge and a blocking foul: http://tinyurl.com/ybbghh4

    Also, for those interested in Talmudic analysis, here's a summary of the NBA Rules on blocks and charges. As a lawyer, I find their opaqueness and lack of clarity positively breathtaking.

    Section II-Blocking
    Blocking is illegal personal contact which impedes the progress of an opponent.

    A defensive player is permitted to establish a legal guarding position in the path of a dribbler regardless of his speed and distance.

    A defensive player is not permitted to move into the path of an offensive player once he has started his shooting motion.

    A defensive player must allow a moving player the distance to stop or change direction when the offensive player receives a pass outside the lower defensive box.

    A defensive player must allow an alighted player the distance to land and then stop or change direction when the offensive player is outside the lower defensive box.

    A defensive player is permitted to establish a legal guarding position in the path of an offensive player who receives a pass inside the lower defensive box regardless of his speed and distance.

    Note: The Lower Defensive Box (LDB) is the area from the bottom tip of the free throw circle to the endline between the two 3’ posted-up marks),

    A defensive player must allow an alighted player who receives a pass the space to land when the offensive player is inside the lower defensive box.

    A defensive player must allow a moving offensive player without the ball the distance to stop or change direction.

    The speed of the offensive player will determine the amount of distance a defensive player must allow.

    If an offensive player causes contact with a defensive player who has established a legal position, an offensive foul shall be called and no points may be scored.

    A defensive player may turn slightly to protect himself, but is never allowed to bend over and submarine an opponent.

    An offensive foul should never be called if the contact is with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position within a designated "restricted area" near the basket for the purpose of drawing an offensive foul.

    The "restricted area" for this purpose is the area bounded by an arc with a 4-foot radius measured from the middle of the basket.

    EXCEPTION: Any player may be legally positioned within the "restricted area" if the offensive player receives the ball within the Lower Defensive Box.

    The mere fact that contact occurs on these type of plays, or any other similar play, does not necessarily mean that a personal foul has been committed. The offocials must decide whether the contact is negligible and/or incidental, judging each situation separately.

    Blocks/Charge: A block/charge foul occurs when a defender tries to get in front of his man to stop him from going in that direction. If he does not get into a legal defensive position and contact occurs, it is a blocking foul. If he gets to a legal position and the offensive player runs into him it is an offensive foul. In both situations, if the contact is minimal, no foul may be called. To get into a legal position defending against the dribbler, the defender just needs to get in front of him. On a drive to the basket, the defender must get to his position before the shooter starts his upward shooting motion. For most other cases, the defender must get into position and allow enough distance for the offensive player to stop and/or change direction.
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 04-17-2011 at 03:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I posted this in another thread, but have re-watched the entire game and Rose was fouled another half-dozen times when fouls were not called.
    But to be perfectly fair, Buck, how many times did our players stand or jump perfectly verticle, where Rose jumped into them... and the foul WAS called?

    At some point in time, I'd say that refs will get altered instructions on how to make these calls. They will probably then be forced to make judgement calls on the "intent" of the offensive player. If the player attacks the rim and is relying more on creating contact and getting the foul by putting up a "wing and a prayer" shot, then no foul?

    IMO, there is a huge difference in drawing contact and creating contact. But no matter what the rules or the instructions to the officials, it all comes down to judgement calls made in fractions of a second.

  21. #43
    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Palmer and Salvatore have been MUCH worse in the past than they were yesterday. I thought the officiating wasn't horrible but there were at least 4-5 questionable calls. The best was at the very end of the game when Joakim Noah "blocked" McRoberts 3 straight times by slapping his arm. It is obvious that Rose is getting the same calls that Wade did a few years ago when the Heat won a championship. It's going to be hard for any team to beat the Bulls when Rose gets over 20 free throws a game similar to how Wade did back then.
    Last edited by Moses; 04-17-2011 at 12:07 PM.

  22. #44
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    As I said in another thread, the call I have the most problem with is when Rose initiates contact on a set defender who is not moving and is standing straight up, but because he can bring his body around at an angle before the contact he gets the call.

    I just don't see how this is a defensive foul. I can see the no-call for the charge, as the offensive player is (usually) avoiding direct contact, but if the defender's space is now being narrowed not just to where his body remains still but also only the front part of that body, there's a huge problem.
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  23. #45
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    As I said in another thread, the call I have the most problem with is when Rose initiates contact on a set defender who is not moving and is standing straight up, but because he can bring his body around at an angle before the contact he gets the call.

    I just don't see how this is a defensive foul. I can see the no-call for the charge, as the offensive player is (usually) avoiding direct contact, but if the defender's space is now being narrowed not just to where his body remains still but also only the front part of that body, there's a huge problem.
    As I read the rules (quoted below), you are absolutely right. It should not be a foul.

    A good example of this was a Rose take to the bucket in either the late 1st or early part of the 2nd Quarter. It was replayed so I had an opportunity to get a good look at it. Dunleavy seemed to be properly positioned, stationary and unmoving, in "legal guarding position" outside the "restricted area" before Rose leaves his feet to go up for the shot. Rose, then goes airborne and moving (as always) to his right, avoids full contact and slides to Dunleavy's left brushing Dunleavy's side as he elevates. Tweet! Foul on Dunleavy! Why? No apparent reason under the rules. If Dunleavy's stationary and in "legal guarding position" then if Rose bumps him as he takes his shot, the contact is either a "charge" under the rules or a "no-call" if the sainted triumvirate of Palmer, Crawford, or Salvatore elect to swallow their whistles. See, de minimis or "incidental" contact can be ignored under the NBA Rules at the discretion of the officials.

    In practical terms though, usually one of the troika can be reliably counted on to blow his or her whistle in the above situation. It takes 3 people to make the no-call. It only takes one to call a charge or a block. Yesterday, the crew only seemed uniformly decided on swallowing their whistles when Collison had the ball. (The non-call on Collison under the bucket, when he was clearly and obviously hacked, was probably their worst blunder of the day -- Sookie alluded to its importance in one of her posts). None of the troika were shy about calling blocks whenever Rose was making his move to the hoop; they called some charges against the Bulls (but I honestly can't recall even one against Rose).

    Anyway, I'd love to see the fouls on Rose that gave rise to his 21 FTs replayed on video.
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 04-17-2011 at 02:54 PM.

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  25. #46

    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Though, both of those "blocks" by Noah on McBob at the end were fouls. He never even touched the ball.

  26. #47
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Complaining about the refs and announcers is a complete and utter waste of time and energy. That is one thing I do not like about the playoffs
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-17-2011 at 01:19 PM.

  27. #48
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Complaining about the refs and announcers is a complete and utter waste of time and energy.
    Yeah, but it's my time to waste and my energy to burn. If you feel that way, why go out of your way to read this thread?

    Part of the fun of rehashing a game is critiquing the refing. Don't be such a killjoy.
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 04-17-2011 at 03:58 PM.

  28. #49

    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    The 16-1 finish had nothing to do with poor officiating IMO, and counting up fouls called, as if everyone plays the same way, is the most useless piece of evidence ever to gauge the fairness of officiating.

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  30. #50
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    Default Re: Refs for Today's Game - The Pits

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Complaining about the refs and announcers is a complete and utter waste of time and energy. That is one thing I do not like about the playoffs
    You really do not like Pacer fans very much do you?


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