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Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

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  • #1

    Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

    Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound
    Written by Peck

    Link

    This is going to be a short Odd Thoughts but there is just no way I could not write something on the night that our beloved Indiana Pacers earned a trip back to the NBA playoffs.

    That’s right, EARNED, a trip to the NBA playoffs. Under the rules as they exist, with the standards that are set and the teams that are playing the Pacers EARNED this spot.

    What makes me even happier is that we won a game to get in. Yes the Bobcats lost to officially put us over the top but more importantly to me anyway is that we took care of business on our end and won our game and won it in a very convincing way.

    Yes I will admit the Wizards were pretty much on cruise control after we took over the lead early on, but we still could have coughed up the lead at many different points in the game but we did not.

    Side note: How Flip Saunders has a head coaching job in the NBA has always been a mystery to me.

    Anyway I’m not going to review the game because in all honesty it was just a case of a team beating another team mercilessly. Happily our team was on the right end of this.

    But I want to take kind of an overview of some things I think have been important in getting us here and hopefully important moving forward.

    Mike Dunleavy becoming the 6th man:

    Obviously this is controversial because Mike is one of those players you either hate or love and there are very few of us who take the middle ground with him. I just think he makes the second unit a much more fluid and properly functioning unit. Prior to him returning our second unit offense consisted of A.J. Price & Dahntay Jones attempting to go one on one with an occasional Josh Dunk or Brandon three for good measure. Mike changes all of that, he not only scores himself but his off the ball movement and passing ability changes the entire complexion of the second unit and makes that unit a much or potent scoring threat. His defense is good enough to be on this unit and in this position he does not have to defend the Wade’s or Allen’s of the world. I’m also happy that Mike gets to go to the playoffs for the first time in his career still being a contributor and vital piece of the club. Unlike Troy Murphy who bought his way into the playoffs and is really not part of any regular rotation.

    Darren Collison hitting his shots:

    But more importantly starting to hit his team mates for some easy baskets and increasing his overall assist total upward. Yea he had a few to many turnovers in this game but overall he has been getting a little better about taking care of the ball. He is always going to be a scoring point guard, that’s just what he is, but as long as he looks for other players first that’s all we really can ask from him. I still worry about his defense and I don’t look forward to seeing Derrick Rose run past him on the way to the rim but as long as he tries to keep him in front of him and helps run the offense on the other end I think he will be ok.

    Frank Vogel as the head coach:

    **Fair warning right now, if you are sick of reading about Jim O’Brien or are a defender of Jim O’Brien you may want to skip the next paragraph. I’m telling you this now because I don’t want to read complaints about “why can’t you let it go” or anything of that nature. If you want to defend him (well good luck to you) that’s fine but we are going to talk about him & I’m not even going to justify why I’m talking about him. Skip down to the next set of stars to avoid this topic. **

    Frank Vogel has gone 19-16 with the exact same roster that Jim O’Brien could only go 17-27 with. Not to mention that Frank has had to deal with a serious injury to a starter (Mike’s thumb) and had to readjust the roster on the fly. He has had no training camp, had very limited practice time and not only does he have no head coaching experience but his assistants all have very limited time as lead assistants either.

    I don’t care about any excuses about the schedule either prior to or after the coaching change. You play the games the NBA gives you and that is all you can do. Every team has to play the exact same amount of games and while yes certainly there are circumstances that may impact your playing ability overall in an 82 game season it pretty much all works out evenly. It’s kind of like complaining about poor officiating, yes in an isolated case you can get screwed on a call but overall it works out pretty evenly.

    But from a personal standpoint I will say this. I like watching this team over 100% more than I ever did at any point in time in the previous 3 ½ years. I don’t understand a stretch four, but I understand old school smash mouth basketball. I don’t understand spreading the floor by taking quick shots early in the shot clock, but I understand taking good shots.

    In other words on the offensive end Frank did a 180 with our club and took us away from a perimeter based offense to a team that lives and dies in the paint.

    I don’t have to argue the merits of this as the results do that for me.

    But if Frank did nothing else at all he did this. He believed in our players, he made certain that they knew that he believed in them. He told us all to jump on board for the end ride because it was going to be a special end of the season.

    Jim on the other hand told Larry Bird that this team could not make the playoffs. That’s right he said that this team could not make the playoffs, it’s more fun to type that on a night when the team just secured a playoff berth.

    I don’t know if Frank is the best coach to move forward with. I’ll say this, I wouldn’t be offended if that is the way that we chose to go but at the end of the day this is something that we can decide in the off-season.

    But I know for damn sure that Jim O’Brien was not a coach we could move forward with and in fact should never have been brought back this year.

    So you can either view it as the day Jim O’Brien was fired or the day Frank Vogel was promoted either way works but this was the one day that changed our franchise for this season.

    **Ok, I’m done talking about O’Brien now**

    I don’t know how we are going to end the year. We may decide we need to win and go into the playoffs with some kind of momentum or we may feel the need to rest Foster (which is what we did vs. the Wizards). Either way I guess I can understand, obviously I prefer to win out but I don’t want anyone with a lingering nagging injury going into the playoffs.

    Playoffs…… yea that feels good to type that again.

    In the past I’ve never been happy just making the playoffs because I always wanted more. But for this team with what we have been through and where we have come from I want to go ahead and say it. I don’t want the players, coaches or management to think this. But as a fan I’ll think it and I’ll say it out loud.

    2010-11 Indiana Pacers NBA Season is a success

    P.S. How fitting is this. On a night that we secure a playoff spot Mark Boyle has announced via twitter that Bobby “Slick” Leonard will return the broadcast booth this Friday and will be here for our playoff run. To say that this is amazing is almost an understatement knowing how grave his initial condition was. I guess the only thing to say to that is Boom Baby!


    *beeps*
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

    Originally posted by RoboHicks View Post
    I don’t know if Frank is the best coach to move forward with. I’ll say this, I wouldn’t be offended if that is the way that we chose to go but at the end of the day this is something that we can decide in the off-season.


    You make it sound like PD will decide the next coach.

    Anyway, great thoughts all the way around.

    Your points about the key, basic, but significant changes made by Vogel are spot on. He made those changes, and the results speak for themselves. Let's not forget that another assistant might have retained a lot of JOB ball. This one didn't.

    Which makes you wonder. Did JOB have a host of players AND assistants who didn't believe in his system? (Lester Conner implied the same.) I wonder how Frank and Jim are getting along these days, seeing that Frank has kinda dissed the former system and explicitly made clear that Jim's teams took "bad shots."

    I know there is a Vogel thread, but I'll say right here that he has a shot in my mind of getting the job. Some have said he doesn't have enough plays, etc., but he hasn't really had the opportunity to do all that. He may need a summer and training camp to install all that. It may be that he has shown extremely good judgment by keeping things simple during this transition.

    I think watching his performance during this playoff series will be important. If we get swept and embarrased, that will lessen my enthusiasm for Frank. If we win two or more, his stock goes even higher.

    What the players think about Vogel should also be a big factor. If they consider him a buddy but not so much feared, or at least respected, that needs to be factored in. But if they all tell Bird he has grown into a place of respect, and they all recommend his hiring, that would be hard to discount.

    I would not be upset to hear he is the coach next year. Now, if JVG or some other known quantity gets named, that's cool too. But Vogel is a real contender, imo. (But we'll decide that this summer, right Peck?)
    "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

      Originally posted by RoboHicks View Post
      Frank Vogel as the head coach:


      Frank Vogel has gone 19-16 with the exact same roster that Jim O’Brien could only go 17-27 with.

      I don’t care about any excuses about the schedule either prior to or after the coaching change. You play the games the NBA gives you and that is all you can do. Every team has to play the exact same amount of games and while yes certainly there are circumstances that may impact your playing ability overall in an 82 game season it pretty much all works out evenly. It’s kind of like complaining about poor officiating, yes in an isolated case you can get screwed on a call but overall it works out pretty evenly.

      I do not want to get into JOB or Frank.

      I just want to make a general comment about your general point. You are 100% correct if you are comparing a full season coached by coach A vs a full season coached by coach B in that case the schedules even out.

      However what you are saying is incorrect if you are comparing coach A who coached the first 44 games to coach B who coached the final 38 games. Yes one of the things anyone should look at is strength of schedule - especially when there is a large difference.

      At the very least strength of schedule should not be out of bounds as a means to compare the results of the two coaches. I know one thing if Vogel had coached the tougher part of the schedule and had gone 19-16 it would be brought up in this forum as a major feather in his cap. I know I would would think more highly of the job Frank did if he was able to go 19-16 during December and January of this season.
      Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-07-2011, 09:15 AM.

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      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

        Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
        I know one thing if Vogel had coached the tougher part of the schedule and had gone 19-16 it would be brought up in this forum as a major feather in his cap.
        Brought up by one or two maybe.

        But I think the majority of Vogel supporters (or preferrers) are not obsessing on statistics like the handful of JOB advocates/devils advocates or whatever they are. Vogel fans look at the W/L record and watch the games with common sense. And they see the obvious improvements.
        "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

          Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
          Brought up by one or two maybe.

          But I think the majority of Vogel supporters (or preferrers) are not obsessing on statistics like the handful of JOB advocates/devils advocates or whatever they are. Vogel fans look at the W/L record and watch the games with common sense. And they see the obvious improvements.
          Common sense? Half the board, and myself especially, don't have that.

          Frank Vogel should send Portland and MJ a large thank you basket.
          Last edited by flox; 04-07-2011, 09:08 AM.

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          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

            Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
            Vogel fans look at the W/L record and watch the games with common sense.
            Really? Is that what you really mean to say

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            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

              I long for the day when I come here and I no longer have to read about Jim O'Brien vs. Frank Vogel.


              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

                Originally posted by flox View Post
                Common sense? Half the board, and myself especially, don't have that.

                Agreed in full.


                Also, to dismiss the schedule strength entirely is completely misguided. Do I think we are a better team because of how we've changed since the overthrow of the former dictator? Tenfold. But the difference in schedule certainly helps. Kim-Jong-Il'Brien coached 44 games this season. 26 of those were against playoff teams. That is 59%. At season's end Vogel will have coached 38 games. Only 15 will have been against playoff teams. 39%. Is that the sole reason we've been better in at the end of year? Not at all. But it is a contributing factor.
                "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

                -Lance Stephenson

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

                  Originally posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
                  Agreed in full.


                  Also, to dismiss the schedule strength entirely is completely misguided. Do I think we are a better team because of how we've changed since the overthrow of the former dictator? Tenfold. But the difference in schedule certainly helps. Kim-Jong-Il'Brien coached 44 games this season. 26 of those were against playoff teams. That is 59%. At season's end Vogel will have coached 38 games. Only 15 will have been against playoff teams. 39%. Is that the sole reason we've been better in at the end of year? Not at all. But it is a contributing factor.

                  Thank you, thank you, thank you.

                  I wish I had just posted what you did, because I agree with you 100% in what you have posted here. (although maybe I would not use some of the colorful language - but it is entertaining)

                  The point is the schedule differences are significant. We aren't talking about comparing 52% vs 48% and splitting hairs. 59% vs 38% is significant by any measure.
                  Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-07-2011, 09:48 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

                    Jim O'Brien also has years of head coaching experience. Frank Vogel has 38 games.

                    He was also thrown into the fire with a team that had lost 20 of 28 prior to his "promotion". I think most recent trend is probly the best comparison. 8-20 (.286) vs 18-17 (.514). It's not like Vogel was handed the keys to the Lakers. He had a big hill to climb, and he did it.

                    The best line by Peck was the memory of Jim declaring this team wasn't talented enough to make the playoffs... followed by Vogel's bold statement when O'Bie was fired that we would make the playoffs, and then we actually make the playoffs.

                    That is probly the largest message you can send, and one that the O'Bie lovers need to take the blindfolds off to.
                    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

                      Originally posted by Peck View Post
                      Jim on the other hand told Larry Bird that this team could not make the playoffs. That’s right he said that this team could not make the playoffs, it’s more fun to type that on a night when the team just secured a playoff berth.
                      Thank you for reminding people of this Peck. I find it bewildering that people seem to think Jimmy could have done something that he himself said to his boss he simply could not do.
                      Last edited by Kegboy; 04-07-2011, 09:52 AM. Reason: Crediting the quote to Peck, not RoboHicks.
                      Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

                        Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                        I do not want to get into ...
                        For those who saw my post in the other thread, you can add the above to "I'm not a ..." and "This thread isn't ...".
                        Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

                          Originally posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
                          Jim O'Brien also has years of head coaching experience. Frank Vogel has 38 games.

                          He was also thrown into the fire with a team that had lost 20 of 28 prior to his "promotion". I think most recent trend is probly the best comparison. 8-20 (.286) vs 18-17 (.514). It's not like Vogel was handed the keys to the Lakers. He had a big hill to climb, and he did it.

                          .
                          There is always a honeymoon period no matter who the coach is, and if JOB was hated as much as it appears he was by the players, then the honeymoon period is even a bigger issue . Plus JOB had worn out his welcome as he was in his 4th season - so that was a huge thing working against him.

                          I don't think taking over this team when Frank did was that difficult - epescially for the first month. I give Frank the most credit for what he did after the 6 game losing streak - but the honeymoon period was the easy part
                          Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-07-2011, 10:05 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

                            Originally posted by Kegboy View Post
                            Thank you for reminding people of this Peck. I find it bewildering that people seem to think Jimmy could have done something that he himself said to his boss he simply could not do.
                            Given the number of people ON THIS FORUM who believe that our record is not a shining example of a playoff team, and the idea that if the Bucks or the Bobcats had taken care of their own business all season we would be in 9th place again, that analysis was not somehow ridiculously stupid. It's not like JOB was coaching the Bulls and said they weren't talented enough to be a playoff team.

                            How would people have reacted if, after Vogel's constant positive view of the team, we lost out (which could have happened) or one of those other teams won out, and we were in that "worst possible spot" again. Would people have accused Frank of not having a realistic view of the team?

                            Vogel sees the positive side, JOB saw the negative. We were ready to see some positive (and many were tired of the negative) - fine, but it doesn't make the positive suddenly perfectly correct except in a hindsight where the circumstances worked out.

                            One of the things that really bothers me around here is that any success seems to only be made valid through demonizing someone in the past. Larry Bird can only be a decent GM because Donnie sucked, Vogel is only a good coach because JOB is the worst coach since Naismith fired Fred Xavier Jones for not allowing his forwards to carry a pole to tip the ball out of the peach basket, and the young guys are good because the veterans are irrelevant.

                            Can't guys be judged in and of themselves without having to get one over on someone else to make it somehow real?
                            BillS

                            A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                            Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Playoff Bound

                              It doesn't matter. Either way this team is in the playoffs with 3 tune up games left against playoff bound teams. It is quite possible that Frank will not be our coach next year and for the sake of this board that may be best. No more Frank vs. Jimmy.

                              Im hoping that our team puts up a good showing in the playoffs and we can some how lure Jerry Sloan onto our bench.

                              Comment

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