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Thread: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

  1. #51

    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    what's also a fact is that history tells us pgs do not make or break teams. if you define an elite pg as a player who ranks top 3 at that position, how many elite pgs have won titles? not many...
    If I can choose my own definitions I can make any point I want.
    Just look at who the GM's pick. End of story. That fact trumps any other argument that can be made. There is a reason pg's are in such high demand.

  2. #52

    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    what's also a fact is that history tells us pgs do not make or break teams. if you define an elite pg as a player who ranks top 3 at that position, how many elite pgs have won titles? not many...
    Outside of Jordan and Kobe, how many top 3 sg's have won a title in the last 30 years? 1 = D-Wade.

    Jordan and Kobe skew the argument because they trump anyone else you might have on the team.

  3. #53
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Is this April Fools again?

    It might be a good idea to trade George one day, but right now is the worst possible time (unless you think he's only going to get worse as a player) to trade him.

    I've said at some point in the next two seasons the pacers are going to have to decide if George and Granger can play together and if not which one should be traded. But the time for that is not now, unless you trade Danny.

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  5. #54
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    how many top tier point guards have won a title in the past 10 years.

    Personally I feel a point guard should only average around 10 ppg and have just as many assists while playing lock down defense.
    This is an interesting point. Was Isaiah Thomas the last star point guard to lead his team to a title?

  6. #55
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by troyc11a View Post
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    That sounds like a top tier pg to me!
    Titles? Rondo, Parker, Billups,
    Just about every team had one except the Lakers.

    The pg does not have to be a DRose type. One like you mentioned would be outstanding provided he "can" score more if needed!
    Seems my memory failed me a bit.

  7. #56

    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by troyc11a View Post
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    Outside of Jordan and Kobe, how many top 3 sg's have won a title in the last 30 years? 1 = D-Wade.

    Jordan and Kobe skew the argument because they trump anyone else you might have on the team.
    and that's also 12 of the 30 titles ;-) want to take a guess as to who the pgs were for those teams? bj armstrong, ron harper, derek fisher, and jason williams... gms draft so many pgs because pg is the most abundant position of talent in the league as most humans don't grow to be 6'10". when you are in a bpa spot in the draft, the bpa is much more likely to be someone 6'4 or smaller in terms of talent. also, because the talent is so similar at the pg position across the board, gms are constantly searching to gain the advantage at that position by finding one of the few elite pgs.

    forget all that though. do me a favor and name me who you think are the top 10 pgs from 1990 til now. or at least do the list in your head. then look up how many titles those pgs have.

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  9. #57
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    I've always said in order to win a title you need either a great dynamic wing player (Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Michael) or a great point guard. pacers right now have neither, so in their current form they will never win.

    Why do you need one or the other? Because every team needs a player who can score or create a good shot at any point in the game.

    OK, why can't a big guy be that player. it is too difficult with the zone rules to get the ball in the hands of the superstar big guy and really the only superstar big guy right now is Dwight Howard and he can't hit free throws.

    Is either Rondo or Pierce a supertsr. maybe not, but in their case those tow are good enough as a combo to win it all.

    Disclaimer: of course there might be exceptions , and in those cases I'll fall back and say the best player wins the championship. That is rule #1.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-06-2011 at 10:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    I have a feeling that many people here are going to be disappointed in two or three years when PG is not a top ten player in the NBA and this same people are going to be asking to trade the guy, I expect him to be a good player, maybe as good as Danny but I'm not putting all my hopes in one guy.

  11. #59
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I have a feeling that many people here are going to be disappointed in two or three years when PG is not a top ten player in the NBA and this same people are going to be asking to trade the guy, I expect him to be a good player, maybe as good as Danny but I'm not putting all my hopes in one guy.

    OK, but then trade him when he is "maybe as good as Danny" not now. Unless there is a team out there who is convinced he will be a superstar - but I doubt there are any of those teams.

  12. #60
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I have a feeling that many people here are going to be disappointed in two or three years when PG is not a top ten player in the NBA and this same people are going to be asking to trade the guy, I expect him to be a good player, maybe as good as Danny but I'm not putting all my hopes in one guy.
    Then those people have some unrealistic expectations. He was the 10th pick in the draft, who the heck expects him to be a top 10 player in the entire league? And why are you making him sound like a failure if he doesn't reach that?

    I think Paul George can become a 18-20 PPG scorer and make a NBA All-Defensive team. That doesn't mean he is a top 10 player in the league necessarily, but it certainly means trading him now after one season would be a dumb move.

  13. #61
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    I think a more interesting comparison would be how many teams with an elite pg make the finals? Cause yeah Jordan and Kobe skew the winning portion.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

  14. #62

    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    If you watched Kobe in his rookie season, the parallels are there. No one knew Kobe would be one of the best of all time.

  15. #63

    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    Then those people have some unrealistic expectations. He was the 10th pick in the draft, who the heck expects him to be a top 10 player in the entire league? And why are you making him sound like a failure if he doesn't reach that?

    I think Paul George can become a 18-20 PPG scorer and make a NBA All-Defensive team. That doesn't mean he is a top 10 player in the league necessarily, but it certainly means trading him now after one season would be a dumb move.
    Kobe was a 13th pick I believe. He was just as raw.

  16. #64

    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    I think a more interesting comparison would be how many teams with an elite pg make the finals? Cause yeah Jordan and Kobe skew the winning portion.
    Really, Jordan and Kobe aren't the ones skewing the win%. Phil Jackson does because his teams run the triangle offense which doesnt need a true pg. Since he is the only one using it. Take him out and you will see most teams have won the title with a very good to elite pg. Parker, Billups, Rondo, Isaiah, Magic, Dennis Johnson, etc..

  17. #65

    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    Kobe was a 13th pick I believe. He was just as raw.
    Kobe was also 2 years behind George. i dont think they are comparable. Nobody expects George to be anywhere near a Kobe. That would be great but is totally unrealistic.

  18. #66
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    NO
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetime’s worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

  19. #67
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    I don't understand why people think Paul George has the potential to be a Superstar. I don't think he'll ever be named to an All-Star game.

    I can't look at a guy that averages 7 points a game as a starter and only plays 20 minutes a night becoming a superstar. Superstars don't come out of no where. They are usually great from their first season. He's nothing like a Kobe/Wade/Melo/Durant superstar player who during their rookie season in the NBA were remarkable players. Although Kobe could be looked at this way, Kobe came straight from High School and was the Naismith High School Player of the Year, Gatorade Men's National Basketball Player of the Year, a McDonald's All-American, and a USA Today All-USA First Team player.


    That doesn't mean that I don't like him or don't think he could become a valuable starter in a couple of years. I just think he is closer to being a Trevor Ariza type player than he is to being the best player on a good team.
    Last edited by naptownmenace; 04-06-2011 at 12:07 PM.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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  20. #68
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by troyc11a View Post
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    Outside of Jordan and Kobe, how many top 3 sg's have won a title in the last 30 years? 1 = D-Wade.

    Jordan and Kobe skew the argument because they trump anyone else you might have on the team.
    Of course you can skew the argument any way you want Troy. You could say in the last 20 years, other than Manu, Wade, Kobe, and MJ elite 2 guards don't win. You could then argue that all the point guards in the championship teams within the last 20 years are elite. You could repeat it again and again. It is clear nothing I can say will sway you either way. If I a scientist was able prove beyond a doubt with a new scientific law that point guards don't win, you'd still argue against it.

    That's the difference in our arguments. You're trying to prove you're right at whatever cost. Facts, or counter-arguments are merely obstacles in your way to prove you cannot be wrong.

    I'm not. I just want everyone on this board to see that while it is abundantly clear elite point guards can win titles, as Isaiah Thomas showed us over 20 years ago, it is far more common to win with shooting guards, or any other non-point position.

    Everyone outside of Troy reading this thread can look for yourself. That's what I encourage. Just evaluate every championship team you've seen. What does it take to win? You'll see many different ways to win, but I'm sure you'll see some ways are more common than others.

  21. #69

    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Of course you can skew the argument any way you want Troy. You could say in the last 20 years, other than Manu, Wade, Kobe, and MJ elite 2 guards don't win. You could then argue that all the point guards in the championship teams within the last 20 years are elite. You could repeat it again and again. It is clear nothing I can say will sway you either way. If I a scientist was able prove beyond a doubt with a new scientific law that point guards don't win, you'd still argue against it.

    That's the difference in our arguments. You're trying to prove you're right at whatever cost. Facts, or counter-arguments are merely obstacles in your way to prove you cannot be wrong.

    I'm not. I just want everyone on this board to see that while it is abundantly clear elite point guards can win titles, as Isaiah Thomas showed us over 20 years ago, it is far more common to win with shooting guards, or any other non-point position.

    Everyone outside of Troy reading this thread can look for yourself. That's what I encourage. Just evaluate every championship team you've seen. What does it take to win? You'll see many different ways to win, but I'm sure you'll see some ways are more common than others.
    Again, people getting paid millions of dollars to make these decisions disagree with you hands down. You want to take all-time great players who play in a system where no pg is really needed and base it on them. Take out Phil Jackson and just about every champ has a top tier pg. The argument that a sg is more important than a pg is probably the most ridiculous statement every made of Pacer Digest. And that says a lot. You are alone in this world in your line of thought.

    Champs = quality pg
    GM's select top tier pg before sg's
    These are indisputable facts that anyone with knowledge of basketball will agree with.

  22. #70
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I can't look at a guy that averages 7 points a game as a starter and only plays 20 minutes a night becoming a superstar. Superstars don't come out of no where. They are usually great from their first season. He's nothing like a Kobe/Wade/Melo/Durant superstar player who during their rookie season in the NBA were remarkable players.
    Maybe he's like McGrady?

  23. #71
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I don't understand why people think Paul George has the potential to be a Superstar. I don't think he'll ever be named to an All-Star game.

    I can't look at a guy that averages 7 points a game as a starter and only plays 20 minutes a night becoming a superstar. Superstars don't come out of no where. They are usually great from their first season. He's nothing like a Kobe/Wade/Melo/Durant superstar player who during their rookie season in the NBA were remarkable players. Although Kobe could be looked at this way, Kobe came straight from High School and was the Naismith High School Player of the Year, Gatorade Men's National Basketball Player of the Year, a McDonald's All-American, and a USA Today All-USA First Team player.


    That doesn't mean that I don't like him or don't think he could become a valuable starter in a couple of years. I just think he is closer to being a Trevor Ariza type player than he is to being the best player on a good team.
    I really wish I wasn't nodding my head after reading this.
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  24. #72
    Member MTM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Once you've made a strong argument in a message post, and perhaps a second argument, no need to keep re-hashing a one-on-one debate. Maybe for the rest of us, just continue it as a private message? We get the idea.

  25. #73
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    Kobe was a 13th pick I believe. He was just as raw.

    Kobe was picked 13th, because picking a HS kid was still kind of taboo. John Calapari who was NJ's coach at the time wanted to select him at 8, but Kobe's agent made it clear that wasn't in their plans after LA showed interest.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/n...ian&id=6255802

  26. #74
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    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Kobe was picked 13th, because picking a HS kid was still kind of taboo. John Calapari who was NJ's coach at the time wanted to select him at 8, but Kobe's agent made it clear that wasn't in their plans after LA showed interest.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/n...ian&id=6255802
    This. People constantly forget that the Kobe draft was full of all kinds of special circumstances and caveats, it really isn't a standard "great find deep in the draft" situation by any means.
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  27. #75

    Default Re: Paul George's trade value: Should we trade for a legit asset now?

    If we could get Josh Smith, Ej (not going to happen), or Iggy in a package deal for him then I would do it.

    PG could be something great but no one knows for sure and certainly the odds are against him becoming a super star. I would much rather use him to get a player who we can count on now.

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