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Thread: Granger from the bench

  1. #1
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    Default Granger from the bench

    I was thinking about the problems the Pacers have been having of late and how we could have better starts and higher energy level to start the game (and throughout the game).

    Obviously this is the type of post that will get some people thinking I'm an idiot, but I just wanted to start a discussion. Also, I will state up front that Granger's play this year has put me firmly in the trade Granger if we can camp. But what would happen if we moved Granger to the bench?

    Bear with me. On the starting unit we have to many people who are looking to score, and a problem with chemistry and energy level. Granger (to me) has just about the lowest level of effort and if he was a kindergartner his report home would read "doesn't play well with others."

    By moving Granger to the bench we'd be freeing up Hans and and George to become more of a scoring option for the first unit, as well as whoever came into the SG spot (Mike?)

    Also, IMO Granger plays much better with McRoberts than with Hans (who I think he personally dislikes), and you could bring them off the bench together. He would be a huge match-up problem coming off the bench, and I don't think it would make our starting unit any worse. My only big concern is what Granger would do to the moral and energy level of the reserves, but a line-up of Granger, Foster, McRoberts, Rush and Price coming off the bench would be excellent.

    Also, I'm not saying don't give Granger his minutes, just don't start him at the beginning of the game. His play may have already put him in the doghouse as evidenced by his lack of 4th quarter play last night, and maybe this would energize him, maximize his skills and play him more with players with whom he has better chemistry.

    Just a thought.
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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    IMO Granger plays much better with McRoberts than with Hans (who I think he personally dislikes), and you could bring them off the bench together. He would be a huge match-up problem coming off the bench, and I don't think it would make our starting unit any worse. My only big concern is what Granger would do to the moral and energy level of the reserves, but a line-up of Granger, Foster, McRoberts, Rush and Price coming off the bench would be excellent.
    The only two times I can remember when the Pacers brought a guy off the bench who had the talent to be starting in front of the player in front of them were Detlef Schrempf and Antonio Davis. Some argued Travis Best should have started, but that was more debatable. In those cases, there was a perceived strategic advantage based on the chemistry of the starters and the need for scoring in the second unit.

    No matter how badly he is playing, you don't bring Granger off the bench on this team. Shuffling around Tyler/McBob/Foster and Dunleavy/Rush/Jones is a legit argument - moving Granger off the starting lineup is not.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    I think part of our problem is that we treat Granger like he's too good to come off the bench. We treat him like a star, but in my opinion he's not giving a star's effort.

    I'm not sure bringing him off the bench is the answer, but I don't think anyone on this roster is too good for a benching.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    If Granger had a solid team-first mentality, he would be the ideal kind of player to bring off the bench, and it would really help both the starting group and group off the bench.

    So we are better off keeping him in the starting lineup.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Mackey Rose,

    Off topic again, but wanted to say it's great Painter's staying at Purdue.
    Danger Zone

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    Mackey Rose,

    Off topic again, but wanted to say it's great Painter's staying at Purdue.
    No doubt.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    You never, ever bring your teams best player off the bench for an extended period of time.

    It isn't fair to expect that of him and critcize him because he wouldn't go for it.

    Any player in the league at grangers level wouldn't find backing up someone like rookie paul george or mike dunleavey an insult.

    Noone, no matter how great a team player you think they are.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by daschysta View Post
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    You never, ever bring your teams best player off the bench for an extended period of time.

    It isn't fair to expect that of him and critcize him because he wouldn't go for it.
    I agree. However I do think there is a very solid argument to be made that it would make the team noticeably better.

    Also, I think there has been a lot of hype around Granger as the best player for three years now, and he seems to believe the hype, which is unfortunate. He has more to prove now in my eyes after this year than he did two years ago.
    Danger Zone

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    I don't think this would change anything.

    Yes starters need to deserve their spot and he hasn't given it his all pretty much throughout this whole season, but as the current best player we have who leads the team in scoring, I wouldn't bench him for someone else because I don't think anyone else would be worthy of taking that spot from him.

  13. #10

    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Well since this is just to get people thinking. I have to completely disagree with putting granger on the bench. Not saying its not worthy of consideration but if the argument is that he does not play well with tyler and that there are too many people looking to score in the starting lineup, why not move the others to the bench. I believe when Tyler and George moved into the starting five that the slow starts started and lack of bench production occurred.(however at the time it happened I was a huge supporter of the change) I am a big tyler and george fan but maybe they need to grow a little, they are both still young. Besides both players own other teams benches. So instead of putting a guy like granger, who is a proven starter and scorer for years, on the bench lets let Tyler and George get their confidence up by playing against lesser talent than theirs by putting up big numbers against other teams benches until they are ready.

  14. #11

    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by daschysta View Post
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    You never, ever bring your teams best player off the bench for an extended period of time.

    It isn't fair to expect that of him and critcize him because he wouldn't go for it.

    Any player in the league at grangers level wouldn't find backing up someone like rookie paul george or mike dunleavey an insult.

    Noone, no matter how great a team player you think they are.
    Manu...

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by BPump33 View Post
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    I think part of our problem is that we treat Granger like he's too good to come off the bench. We treat him like a star, but in my opinion he's not giving a star's effort.

    I'm not sure bringing him off the bench is the answer, but I don't think anyone on this roster is too good for a benching.
    I agree, but this ship has sailed unless we acquire an even better small forward in the future. The Pacers have publicly, loudly, and often, proclaimed him to be our star guy, and it would likely be 'political suicide' to bench him now.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Manu...
    Tim Duncan historically has been the best player on those spurs teams. Manu was never labeled as the primary star or perceived to be the best player on those teams.

    Also i'm sure that in grangers situation manu wouldn't be happy to be the backup to george rush or dunleavey.

    Granger likely wouldn't mind coming off the bench for a team competing for a championship.

    I should have clarified. By "level" I was refering to a player widely seen and considered to be the teams best player. They'll do it for a stretch, but good luck finding many who would be happy doing it, and it doesn't mean that they are bad sports or poor team players.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    IMO Granger plays much better with McRoberts than with Hans (who I think he personally dislikes)
    I've seen nothing to support this.

    In other news, while I've not always been pleased with Granger's output this season, I openly laugh at the idea of improving our starting lineup by playing Roy-Tyler-George-Dunleavy-Collison.
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  20. #15

    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I agree, but this ship has sailed unless we acquire an even better small forward in the future. The Pacers have publicly, loudly, and often, proclaimed him to be our star guy, and it would likely be 'political suicide' to bench him now.
    They would trade him first! Benching him would destroy his value if there is much left.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    Obviously this is the type of post that will get some people thinking I'm an idiot, but I just wanted to start a discussion.
    This was the only part of the post that seemed to make much sense to me.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Absolutely. Not.

    Reason 1:
    It's amazing how low some people value Granger now. He regressed last year, maybe even regressed more this year, but he's still the best player on our young roster. OK, he did not turn into the "superstar who leads us to victories" as some people thought. His defense appears bad, he's supposedly indifferent, and he's been slumping like crazy since March.
    yet he's still our best player. The guy you wanna bench has been playing like an all-star for 3 months this season. When the team is winning, Granger is playing well. On our victories this season he avged 22.5 ppg on 47% from the field, 46% from three, 88% from the FT line, and added 5.5 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.3 steals and a block. This is by far the best production we have on the team.

    Reason 2:
    We shouldn't make such big changes few games before the playoffs.

    Reason 3:
    I don't think he'll like it, which is more than understandable... Benching your best player, especially when the team isn't really successful, hurts him

    Reason 4:
    The trade value of "A good scorer and a potential all-star" will turn into "A long, big contract for a guy coming off the bench". If you don't want Granger on your team, that's fine, but benching isn't the way to go. Personally I don't wanna trade him, but I'd rather trade him than have him off the bench.

    Reason 5:
    We have NO other consistent scorers other than Granger. Granger is clearly our number one option, who is the second option? Do we have a consistent one? Nope. It's always, randomly, one of these guys stepping up: DC, Tyler, Roy, Rush. So which one of these "not good enough to be second scoring options" will lead our offense? Oh wait, you want George instead of Rush. Well the only shots George seems to make this season are dunks and funny buzzer beaters. He's not ready yet.

    You wanna change the lineup/rotations? Do it, without benching Granger.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by daschysta View Post
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    Tim Duncan historically has been the best player on those spurs teams. Manu was never labeled as the primary star or perceived to be the best player on those teams.

    Also i'm sure that in grangers situation manu wouldn't be happy to be the backup to george rush or dunleavey.

    Granger likely wouldn't mind coming off the bench for a team competing for a championship.

    I should have clarified. By "level" I was refering to a player widely seen and considered to be the teams best player. They'll do it for a stretch, but good luck finding many who would be happy doing it, and it doesn't mean that they are bad sports or poor team players.
    I'd say Manu's been the best player on that team for at least two or three years now. Parker has arguably been better than Duncan at times, too. TD was undoubtedly one of the best in the game period, but he's been on a slow but steady decline over the last three or four seasons, IMO.
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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    I'd bench him if I thought it would actually produce better on-court results. At this time with this group, I don't think it would translate into significant improvement.
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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    I can't say this is the worst possible thing to do, but I will say this. MISTAKE. And this is arguably a good debate.

    You do NOT bench Granger. Being a big Granger fan I'm not just gonna sit and root for him in every way possible. Granger is our star ( and I mean this very lightly ) Yes, he has most definitely had an off year. Benching him would send him in a world of immature mental pain. And we don't want Danny becoming the next O.J. Mayo.

    HOWEVER, I can ignore that there is also a professional in Danny. If he was benched, MAYBE, he would think: "Ill show these *****es I don't belong in the second unit" and could go OFF like he did in '09. Like i said, "MAYBE"

    But from my POV, I absolutely do not agree with benching him.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    I'm just dumfounded that you guys are looking at the starting unit and thinking "Sure, we're playing .500 ball for the first time in years, but think how good we could be if we slid George to SF and inserted Dun at SG!"
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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I'm just dumfounded that you guys are looking at the starting unit and thinking "Sure, we're playing .500 ball for the first time in years, but think how good we could be if we slid George to SF and inserted Dun at SG!"
    With what we have, Mike does need to move back into the starting line-up as SG. That's just plain as day.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    I'd say Manu's been the best player on that team for at least two or three years now. Parker has arguably been better than Duncan at times, too. TD was undoubtedly one of the best in the game period, but he's been on a slow but steady decline over the last three or four seasons, IMO.
    When they were winning titles TD was the best player on that team and was the biggest reason they won those titles. I don't think Parker and Manu would be the players they are without TD. And Manu is starting this year. Even when he came off the bench he averaged close to thirty minutes a game and logged heavy minutes with the starters
    Last edited by ilive4sports; 04-05-2011 at 02:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Granger from the bench

    I don't think anybody is truly suggesting that Granger come off the bench.

    But the unit that is starting is an abject failure.

    They do not fit. At all. That much is evident just watching the game. When you look at the stats the picture gets even bleaker.

    It is evident that a change needs to be made to try and get some sense of cohesion with the starting unit. Moving Granger to the bench is just an exaggerated way of doing that. And there is some method to the madness.

    It moves one of the starters who views himself as a primary scorer and replaces him with someone willing to sacrifice his numbers for the good of the team. It inserts a primary scoring option onto the second unit.

    Of course, there are much easier ways of completing these tasks, like simply returning to our original, and not coincidentally, best, five man unit. Also not coincidentally, the original bench unit was among our best groups. Hell, they were even good enough to have their stupid self declared nickname adopted by many.

    But the fact that Collison, George, Granger, Hansbrough, and Hibbert is a disaster is entirely undeniable at this point. Moving Granger to the bench is certainly the most drastic of the possible remedies. And it would certainly never happen. But that doesn't mean the theory is entirely flawed.
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