Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 114

Thread: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

  1. #76
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,494

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Here's a question for the stat guys...
    The Pacers do get broken down it seems on defense and allow some uncontested things at the basket (in the half court)... but what about points allowed in transition?

    That was always a big complaint I had with O'Brien's system is that it left the team vulnerable to easy transition baskets.. and several per game. I'm curious if we've put a lid on that or not. What do the statistics say?
    Last edited by Bball; 04-03-2011 at 02:45 PM.
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  2. #77
    The light, not the lie. kester99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Disgusta, GA
    Posts
    8,821
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The only reason anyone would even bother to look at strength of schedule would be to in some way try and justify their own belief that Jim O'Brien was a good coach caught in a bad situation.
    That seems a bit over the top to me...particularly since some of the people involved in the discussion have talked about Strength of Schedule quite a lot over the years. Heck (Peck) I was looking at an article by Count55 on the subject from 2010 yesterday.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswalt72 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    He's changed the focus of the offense, yes, but he's also kept the defense relatively the same scheme-wise. And it's worsened.
    Without digging too deep into ooky, creepy statistics, let me throw this out. The Pacers' opponents Points/FGA is down ever so slightly under Vogel, compared to O'Brien....I mean .999 the same. So, by that measure, the defense is equal to JOB's time.

    Now, opponents PPG has gone up, but so has ours.

    Comparing a simple index (pts+rbs+assts+blks+steals, minus shots, TOs, PFs...all adjusted for time) from pre-Vogel to Vogel....our opponents performance has dropped, while ours has gone up. Opponents index = .979 of preVogel index. Ours = 1.018 of preVogel performance.

    None of that says worse defense to me.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Let me add a thought here on Strength of Schedule and its place in the discussion. It's obvious to me why we'd include the topic when we're comparing team performance from year to year for certain months, BUT if you factor in the Young_Team_Playing_Up_or_Down_To_Their_Opponents_L evel (in)constant, then to some extent SoS means less. In other words, I'm speculating here that even with a tougher schedule, this team would have played up to that level somewhat.
    Last edited by kester99; 04-04-2011 at 03:10 AM.
    [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

  3. #78
    Member spazzxb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    fort wayne In
    Age
    34
    Posts
    2,716

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How dare you use common sense as a basis for your reasoning. Where is your advanced statistical analysis, where are your shot charts?

    The only reason anyone would even bother to look at strength of schedule would be to in some way try and justify their own belief that Jim O'Brien was a good coach caught in a bad situation. Anyone else would just look and see that Frank with the exact same group of players is winning and most likely taking to the playoffs that Jim said could not make it.

    One would only ignore it because it hurts their argument. We Knew this season was front loaded well before JOB got fired. With or without JOB this team didn't achieve what I was hoping for so why should we now be impressed? I am hopeful to make the playoffs but if we do we just squeaked in.

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=60166

  4. #79
    Step aside, King James BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    14,427

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Whether or not Frank is the next John Wooden or the next Isiah Thomas, there is one thing we know.

    The team has played better when Jim O'Brien did not or could not implement his stretch-the-floor strategy with the particular team. Here are the key examples:

    1) The five game win streak at the beginning of the year last year. Troy Murphy was out and the team immediately started playing better. Night and day better. Dahntay had to bite his tongue but he still said he knew why the team was winning. Jersey knew the same thing and followed through with benching and now trading Troy.

    2) The team was winning at the beginning of this season until Jim pushed McBob out at the beginning of December to launch threes. Teams didn't respect it and played off of him...cheating toward Hibbert. A few teams outright doubled Hibbert. Hibbert's confidence plummets and the team goes in a tailspin.

    3) Vogel takes over and we have another 5 game winning streak and except for a locker room issue the team has been playing very well. Even with it, they are above .500.

    You can talk all about SOS, but the players have torn Jim O'Brien a new one. There's no way they played as well with Jim at the helm...and I doubt that feeling has been for just this season. Nah, this team is better right now even with a bunch of young players getting the minutes. Had they tried to run Jim's system it would have been a disaster. As it is, we are going to the playoffs.

    Yes, the playoffs. You can talk all about our record versus another season but the fact remains that more teams are doing worse than us this year than last. So, relative to other teams we are doing better this year.
    LeWade are going down.

  5. #80
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,254

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    One would only ignore it because it hurts their argument. We Knew this season was front loaded well before JOB got fired. With or without JOB this team didn't achieve what I was hoping for so why should we now be impressed? I am hopeful to make the playoffs but if we do we just squeaked in.

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=60166
    A win is a win is a win.

    A los is a loss is a loss.

    Every team in the NBA plays 82 games. Each team has 41 games at home & 41 games away.

    Numbers are a funny thing. They really don't lie, they can be manipulated and cherry picked to glean what we want from them though.

    You can view the record of the team prior to the liberation (my words) of our ball club and state that the schedule was tougher and might be right.

    I can view the record since the uprising (probably your words) and say that we have already won more games than we did the rest of the season in 11 less games and be right as well.

    It is then up to our prejudice to determine which fact is more accurate because at the end of the day neither is wrong from a pure number standpoint.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Peck For This Useful Post:


  7. #81
    Member spazzxb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    fort wayne In
    Age
    34
    Posts
    2,716

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    My main aurgument against firing Jim mid season was the assumed "no one on staff was capable of taking over. I did not see the value of bringing in an outsider for a couple of months. While I don't really think it made much of a difference performance whys, the fans are happier now (which I believe was the main reason it happened). Vogel has proven to be capable and didn't wreck the ship, however this team still has not outperformed what was expected of them under the old coach. Vogel gets his first interview, he isn't entitled to anything more.

    What about the people who hated JOB for playing Mike Dunleavy, (are they somehow magically right now? The ones who called Foster a scrub who shouldn't be in the league? These statements went hand in hand with the coach hate that people seem to be bragging about now.

  8. #82
    Shooting for the Moon Day-V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    The South Side
    Age
    25
    Posts
    4,305
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    What about the people who hated JOB for playing Mike Dunleavy, (are they somehow magically right now? The ones who called Foster a scrub who shouldn't be in the league? These statements went hand in hand with the coach hate that people seem to be bragging about now.
    While people were not happy with the AMOUNT of playing time those guys were getting, I think most agreed that they still deserved minutes.

    The "hand in hand" statements regarding coach hate primarily (but not only) centered around Josh and Tyler's inconsistent playing time and DNP-CD's when they were replaced by the likes of Posey and S. Jones in the line-up.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Day-V For This Useful Post:


  10. #83
    Member ilive4sports's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    6,612

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    My main aurgument against firing Jim mid season was the assumed "no one on staff was capable of taking over. I did not see the value of bringing in an outsider for a couple of months. While I don't really think it made much of a difference performance whys, the fans are happier now (which I believe was the main reason it happened). Vogel has proven to be capable and didn't wreck the ship, however this team still has not outperformed what was expected of them under the old coach. Vogel gets his first interview, he isn't entitled to anything more.

    What about the people who hated JOB for playing Mike Dunleavy, (are they somehow magically right now? The ones who called Foster a scrub who shouldn't be in the league? These statements went hand in hand with the coach hate that people seem to be bragging about now.

    I couldn't disagree with that bolded statement more. Most people had this team finishing under .500 this season. With Vogel we are over .500 by a couple of games. That is certainly outperforming the expectations we had for JOB. And he is clearly exceeding what Jim actually did, not the expectations of what we had of him doing which is even more impressive.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to ilive4sports For This Useful Post:


  12. #84
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    31,959

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    There is little doubt in my mind that Vogel could coach any of the teams JOB has ever coached and ended up with a better result.
    So you think that Vogel would have gotten that Celtics team to the NBA Finals?

  13. #85
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    31,959

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The only reason anyone would even bother to look at strength of schedule would be to in some way try and justify their own belief that Jim O'Brien was a good coach caught in a bad situation. Anyone else would just look and see that Frank with the exact same group of players is winning and most likely taking to the playoffs that Jim said could not make it.

    So I'm inferring from your comments that strength of schedule is a stat that is out of bounds for rational discussion. Ok, but I hope that is applied across the board

  14. #86
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,254

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    So I'm inferring from your comments that strength of schedule is a stat that is out of bounds for rational discussion. Ok, but I hope that is applied across the board
    So now your going to argue stats.? You who is Mr. I don't need to see the stats. I watch the game.

    We both watch the games, you mean your going to tell me that you don't look at the club and see the difference between the time prior to Frank and after?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Peck For This Useful Post:


  16. #87
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Garrett, IN
    Posts
    8,814
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    I think the major difference between Vogel and JOB is pride. Vogel is going to Bird, and most likely calling Pitino. He is seeking advice. So the question is:

    Is Vogel a puppet coach of Bird? I wouldn't go that far. But Vogel is young, has grown. But to say that he could endure and bring this lack luster roster that we have had the last three years, to a better overall result is a stretch.

    To say that JOB is the same coach, or that the NBA is the same as it was when the Celtics made it to the ECFs, is a stretch.

    JOB is not a worse coach than Vogel. But I think that JOB's stubbornness and narrow vision gets him slightly worse results with the same type of roster.

    NEITHER CAN BRING THIS TEAM TO THE NEXT STAGE. Neither could bring this team to the second round. JVG could, SVG could, Avery Johnson might, Adelman could, and many others.

    Unfortunately those guys are not walking in the door. The real question is: can Vogel be that guy with growth? Or is there someone out there who can?

  17. #88
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    31,959

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    We both watch the games, you mean your going to tell me that you don't look at the club and see the difference between the time prior to Frank and after?

    Not at all, but that was not the point Hicks started the thread with. He started the thread in response to my off handed remark about Pacers playing well towards the end of the seasons that JOB coached. Hicks was talking about the record, not how well or poorly the team was playing, and he was talking about the record during a specific portion of each season. So I think it is 100% in bounds to look at the strength of schedule.

    Are we beating the Lakers, Heat and the Celtics or the Wizards, Cavs and Kings? I think that is a very relevant question in light of Hicks original post in this thread.

    In more general terms I never considered looking at who the pacers beat as some strange stat that only some statisticion can understand.

    If I am out of the country or some cave and cannot follow the pacers and when i get back I learn the pacers have won 10 straight I'll say great, but my next thoguth is who did they play, who did they beat. By any measure it is a very fair question, and yet peck you are acting like it is some weird stat that is difficult to understand.

    The bottonline: who the pacers play is not a stat - that is an important reality
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-03-2011 at 10:50 PM.

  18. #89
    Step aside, King James BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    14,427

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    The NBA is an odd beast. Let me make just one point why using stats in this type of case is simply a waste of time.

    Teams often take the night off...especially down the stretch. If Team A locked into a position and is overconfident, they may give Team B a lead. That's what happened a couple years ago when we had huge leads that "strangely" evaporated in the latter stages of games. While some wondered why we "collapsed", it was obvious to many of us who have played games.

    Don't you remember taking it easy on some teams or guys if you are playing one-on-one. Who here has allowed an opponent to get a lead purely for the challenge of snatching the victory. Imagine if you played 5 grueling games in a week and had a patsy on game 4. The temptation to toy with them or take a break is pretty strong. Sometimes the patsy ends up winning. What does that do to the stats, particularly a small sample size.

    Where am I going with this? I am saying that this is one example of why relying on a tiny sample size of games to explain human actions...and expecting to make sense of it statistically is a fool's game. What about injuries? Locker room issues? The list of factors are simply too long, so you end up comparing apples to oranges.

    Similarly, there are probably numerous examples of why attempting to compare how the Pacers played down the stretch in 2008 or 2009 versus this year is pure nonsense. There are too many factors, basketball and non-basketball in nature.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 04-03-2011 at 11:06 PM.
    LeWade are going down.

  19. #90
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    31,959

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Teams often take the night off...especially down the stretch.
    I've always made the point that the two most inpredictable months of the NBA season are November and April. A lot of teams come out of training camp/preason just not ready to play so some lesser teams can get some cheap wins in November. April is even crazier because so many teams have different agendas byt that time in the season.

    And no I don't buy the argument that in order to play well in the playoffs a team needs to be playing well at the end of the season. I think that is hogwash.

    I do think record after allstar break is significant, but the Lakers they were 14-1 since the break, if they were to lose 5 out of their last 8 games to end the season I think that means nothing at all. Teams like that as long as they play well at some point during the season, they know they can do it in the playoffs
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-03-2011 at 11:29 PM.

  20. #91
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Broadripple
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,189

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    For those who are saying the recent success of the team is more due to strength of schedule than the difference in coaching, I think one thing is being overlooked.

    One of the primary frustrations with Obrien was the tendency to rely too heavily on veterans at the expense of developing our future core players, the justification was that these vets gave us the "best chance to win"

    Some have supposed that the team is not actually doing any better under Vogel, but instead that we are getting the exact same results.

    If we accept that as true, that still amounts to an indictment of Obrien's rotation decisions. If Vogel is relying on the youth and getting the same results, than this proves that Jim Obrien was in fact wrong to overuse the veterans. If Jim Obrien was right, we should be doing worse.

    Instead, we have young inconsistent players going through their growing pains before our eyes, and WINNING THE SAME AMOUNT OF GAMES.

    Many who criticized Obrien were not as concerned with the win/loss column as they were with player development. Why were we relying so heavily on veterans that had no future with the team? The most recent example? Posey over either McRoberts or Hansbrough for large portions of the year. Both of these players have been major contributors in recent weeks, and the team is certainly not any worse off. The justification that Posey gave us a better chance to win is bunk, we have done just as well if not better without him.

    I feel that anyone who said "these veterans stink" we should be playing the youth... and perhaps even suggested that we would be just as well off, or maybe better... should have a right to feel vindicated now.
    "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

    - ilive4sports

  21. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Infinite MAN_force For This Useful Post:


  22. #92
    Member spazzxb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    fort wayne In
    Age
    34
    Posts
    2,716

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    So now your going to argue stats.? You who is Mr. I don't need to see the stats. I watch the game.

    We both watch the games, you mean your going to tell me that you don't look at the club and see the difference between the time prior to Frank and after?
    Some things did change;He got rid of small ball (primarily using Danny at the 4). He committed to Tyler and Josh both getting minutes. He also pulled DJ off the shelve, for better or worse. Vogel also hasn't been afraid to play Josh and Foster together(allowing Josh to backup Tyler).The thing is small ball with Danny was effective and I am not certain it was a positive to completely eliminate it from are aresonal.

    Does any of this translate into wins, thats like asking an Owl how to get to the tootsie roll center of a Tootsie pop.

  23. #93
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    31,959

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    Why were we relying so heavily on veterans that had no future with the team? The most recent example? Posey over either McRoberts or Hansbrough for large portions of the year. Both of these players have been major contributors in recent weeks, and the team is certainly not any worse off. The justification that Posey gave us a better chance to win is bunk, we have done just as well if not better without him.

    I think the part I put in bold is just not accurate. Besides Posey who else (and keep in mind Posey was averaging less than 20 minutes per game this season when Jim was the coach)

    Who else? Ford was benched. Dunleavy was gettign minutes but many are calling for him to move back into the starting lineup now.

    Isn't D. Jones a veteran, JOB didn't play him,

    Tyler had started 8 straight games And was getting good minutes.

    Josh had started up until the Janaury.

    So IMO besides Posey who was playing less than 20 minutes per game, I think your statement as you phrased it is simply not accurate.

    There were a lot of arguments to fire Jim, but this is not a good one

  24. #94
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    UB I think he was talking about JOB during this three years, by the way starting and finishing games is a different thing, Tyler started 8 games but didn't play much and didn't finish games.

  25. #95
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    31,959

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Tyler started 8 games but didn't play much and didn't finish games.

    Tyler averaged 23 minutes per game in the 9 starts under JOB. Then in Vogel's first 9 games as coach, Tyler averaged 22 minutes per game

  26. #96
    Custom User Titleist
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Larry and Frank -- Birds of a Feather!
    Posts
    3,430
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Some things did change;He got rid of small ball (primarily using Danny at the 4). He committed to Tyler and Josh both getting minutes. He also pulled DJ off the shelve, for better or worse. Vogel also hasn't been afraid to play Josh and Foster together(allowing Josh to backup Tyler).The thing is small ball with Danny was effective and I am not certain it was a positive to completely eliminate it from are aresonal.

    Does any of this translate into wins, thats like asking an Owl how to get to the tootsie roll center of a Tootsie pop.
    He also immediately got rid of the "stretch 4", and came out and stated that the team would not be taking bad shots anymore. The three point shot has resumed a far less prominent part of the offensive structure now (i.e. they are not chucking up threes early in the clock nearly as often) and are frequently outscoring the opposition at the line due to focusing on playing the game inside/out as opposed to outside/in.

    The point is that Mr. Owl actually got to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsie Pop by recognizing that licking and licking and licking from the outside in an effort to eventually open up the middle was not nearly as effective as simply going straight to the middle and opening the entire thing up quickly as a result allowing access to both the wonderful flavor of the perimeter candy as well as the fudgy goodness of the middle at nearly the same time.

    Mr. Owl was pretty smart...

  27. The Following User Says Thank You to Brad8888 For This Useful Post:


  28. #97
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Broadripple
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,189

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think the part I put in bold is just not accurate. Besides Posey who else (and keep in mind Posey was averaging less than 20 minutes per game this season when Jim was the coach)

    Who else? Ford was benched. Dunleavy was gettign minutes but many are calling for him to move back into the starting lineup now.

    Isn't D. Jones a veteran, JOB didn't play him,

    Tyler had started 8 straight games And was getting good minutes.

    Josh had started up until the Janaury.

    So IMO besides Posey who was playing less than 20 minutes per game, I think your statement as you phrased it is simply not accurate.

    There were a lot of arguments to fire Jim, but this is not a good one

    It is a larger commentary over JOB's entire tenure here. Posey is the best example from this season. Posey was always in the rotation over either Mcroberts or Hansbrough... despite lackluster play, Posey seemed to be the one player that Jim refused to take out of the rotation.

    Last season after Hansbrough went down, we were subjected to all kinds of goofy small ball lineups, particularly those including D. Jones or Dunleavy playing power forward. Apparently Josh Mcroberts was SO bad that he couldn't even get off the bench behind Murphy... based on what we have seen this year, that assertion seems laughable now.

    What about AJ Price's inexplicable benching last season?

    Many young players on this team, while not necessarily out of the rotation, have been on a consistently short leash. Hibbert was still getting jerked around as recently as last season, being replaced with Murphy as starting center at one point.

    There has been a consistent theme of good stretches of play going unrewarded, and a single mistake being justification to be yanked out of the game. These complaints are nothing new they have been made loudly and consistently over the past couple of seasons.

    It has also been confirmed since the firing that the players felt the exact same way.
    "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

    - ilive4sports

  29. The Following User Says Thank You to Infinite MAN_force For This Useful Post:


  30. #98
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    4,026

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Ugh... still defending J'Ob are we?

    The only statements I need to make regarding J'Ob and my desire to have him removed are below:

    1) I endorsed the guy for a long time when he came here. It wasn't until about... the "irrelevant" scenario that I started to harbor the idea of showing him the door.
    2) Over time, I disagreed with the style of basketball he was trying to install here.
    3) I disapproved of how he handled himself in public statements and statements about his players.
    4) I disapproved with his overall record while he was here.

    That's all I really need to say. It's my stance on J'Ob, and "Frankly", I don't feel like I should have to keep defending the stance. He had his chance, he didn't meet what I expected out of the team, his style of ball did not fit my desire in what I'd like to see the Pacers play, his comments to the press were baffling and surly, and ultimately, he lost a lot.

    If the J'Ob-defenders don't like those reasons, then I don't know what to tell ya. All the hypothetical situations and second-guessing in the world by his defenders really have no effect on me. He's gone and I've moved on.

    I felt it was time for him to go. Nice guy, good mind --- needed to move on. I had a wait-and-see approach with Vogel when they brought him on, had a ton of questions, but I was ready for change. He came in and immediately said things that made me perk up as a basketball and Pacer fan, mainly with the style changes. I like his demeanor in press statements, I like the way he treats his players. He's won more games than he's lost, which is saying quite a bit when you consider the dude has never been a head coach, and he was thrown a train-wreck of a team that had lost a majority of it's games over the previous weeks.

    Am I ready to officially hand over the keys to him? I'm still evaluating him. I think he's done a decent job so far, but I'd like to keep options open, also. If he ends up being our coach, I wouldn't be upset. But I know this --- I feel the removal of Jim O'Brien was the right decision --- all the arguing in the world doesn't change that fact. I know how to think for myself and make logical decisions and that is the decision I came to early in this season.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 04-04-2011 at 12:55 PM.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  31. #99
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    19,857

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Tyler averaged 23 minutes per game in the 9 starts under JOB. Then in Vogel's first 9 games as coach, Tyler averaged 22 minutes per game
    And who was finishing close games? Tyler or James Posey?

    James Posey.

    In crunch time, Jim ran back to his vet while Josh and Tyler rode the pine. Who finishes games is a lot more important than who started, or how many minutes they got. It shows who the coach trusts, and who he thinks executes his schemes the best.

    James Freaking Posey.

  32. #100
    Step aside, King James BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    14,427

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Tyler averaged 23 minutes per game in the 9 starts under JOB. Then in Vogel's first 9 games as coach, Tyler averaged 22 minutes per game
    ...and for the record, Tyler has averaged over 27 minutes per game under Vogel versus 12 minutes per game under Jim factoring in 11 DNP's.

    The result? Frank has won 18 games in 34 chances for a .529 winning percentage versus Jim's 17 games in 44 chances for .386.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 04-04-2011 at 09:58 PM.
    LeWade are going down.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 40
    Last Post: 05-06-2010, 10:36 AM
  2. Tbird's view from the press box: Detroit game Wednesday Jan. 14
    By thunderbird1245 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 01-18-2009, 04:58 PM
  3. A fan recaps the season from section 221
    By travmil in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-21-2005, 10:58 PM
  4. How does Conseco Fieldhouse rank.
    By Unclebuck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 04-13-2005, 06:59 PM
  5. 5/30/2004 ECF Playoff Game Thread: Pistons at Pacers (Game 5)
    By BostonConnection in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 134
    Last Post: 05-30-2004, 11:07 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •