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Thread: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

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    Default '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    I was seeing some comments poo-pooing Frank's 18-15 record by saying something to the effect of 'it could be nothing more than our usual late season surge'.

    Well, let's compare, shall we?

    From the last game of January through the first game of April, here are the records:

    Frank Vogel, 2011: 18-15
    Jim O'Brien, 2010: 12-17
    Jim O'Brien, 2009: 13-16
    Jim O'Brien, 2008: 12-18


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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    I don't think you will find any rational person on this board saying that O'Brien is a better coach than Vogel.

    I like Vogel, I really do. I'm more impressed by the fact that he weathered that locker room turmoil than his record. That could have ruined our season, but to his (and the players') credit, they bounced back. I still want to look at other coaching options this offseason, but I can't say I'd be too upset if Vogel got the gig full time. Even if he doesn't, I don't think we have seen the last of Frank Vogel as an NBA head coach.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I don't think you will find any rational person on this board saying that O'Brien is a better coach than Vogel.

    I like Vogel, I really do. I'm more impressed by the fact that he weathered that locker room turmoil than his record. That could have ruined our season, but to his (and the players') credit, they bounced back. I still want to look at other coaching options this offseason, but I can't say I'd be too upset if Vogel got the gig full time. Even if he doesn't, I don't think we have seen the last of Frank Vogel as an NBA head coach.
    This is pretty much how I feel too. I think Vogel has done a pretty good job since taking over. I also agree with the most impressive thing is his handling of the locker room problems, although we don't know how much was him pulling the team together.

    I think Vogel has done a good job learning on the fly. He's fixing the substitution patterns now. I am worried about the defense though. I know its tough to do in season, but there needs to be a lot of change on that end of the court.

    I'm also worried about having an inexperienced coach with an inexperienced team. In addition to the defensive problems, this is why I like the idea of someone like Mike Brown. He's got experience and is get on defense.

    Vogel definitely deserves the first interview though.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I don't think you will find any rational person on this board saying that O'Brien is a better coach than Vogel.
    I consider myself rational and while I won't say that O'Brien is better than Vogel, I certainly won't say that Vogel is better than O'Brien. Way, way way too soon to draw any hard conclusions on Vogel. I'll say he's done a nice job through 33 games. He's hasn't coached through a training camp, through preseason games, through the process when the players begin to get sick of hearing you.

    Jim O'Brien has coached about 7 NBA seasons, has goten his team to game 6 of the ECF.

    I think for anyone to conclude that Vogel is a better coach than O'Brien is irrational. Is Vogel a better coach for this Pacers team right now? Of course, but a better coach overall - get back with me after Vogel has coached two or three full seasons.


    Edit: I'm not sure it is entirely fair to include the honeymoon period - the first 8-10 games Vogel coached this team. Any coach would have had a honeymoon period taking over for JOB.

    Pacers did end the season last year 10-4, actually they were 10-2 until the lost their last two games. The schdule to end the year last year was easy, but Vogel's first 10 games schedule was easy. I suppose my point is, I'm not convinced that Vogel is the answer and that is the only question we need to be concerned about. O'Brien is gone, not coming back, so he's not the issue anymore.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-02-2011 at 11:01 AM.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Edit: I'm not sure it is entirely fair to include the honeymoon period - the first 8-10 games Vogel coached this team. Any coach would have had a honeymoon period taking over for JOB.

    Pacers did end the season last year 10-4, actually they were 10-2 until the lost their last two games. The schdule to end the year last year was easy, but Vogel's first 10 games schedule was easy. I suppose my point is, I'm not convinced that Vogel is the answer and that is the only question we need to be concerned about. O'Brien is gone, not coming back, so he's not the issue anymore.
    To be fair in the other direction, I think the honeymoon argument is countered with the 6 game locker-room induced losing streak.

    But regardless of where your opinion falls on that, this thread was never about which is the better coach or whether this means we should bring Vogel back.

    I just took exception to the idea that nothing's changed and that we're just mirroring the last 3 years. We're not.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    To be fair in the other direction, I think the honeymoon argument is countered with the 6 game locker-room induced losing streak.

    But regardless of where your opinion falls on that, this thread was never about which is the better coach or whether this means we should bring Vogel back.

    I just took exception to the idea that nothing's changed and that we're just mirroring the last 3 years. We're not.

    The six game losing stretch included games at Dallas, OKC, and Houston (Rockets have ben one of the best teams in the NBA since As break)- games we would have likely lost anyway. Also included a home game against the Sixers who were playing great at the time, and then two road games one at Minny and one at Toronto. Take out the locker room situation if you want, Pacers probably win 2 or 3 of those 6 anyway.

    To your general point, yes things have changed a great deal since the past few seasons, some due to coaching, some due to younger players getting better from playing a few seasons and the natural maturing process. Plus this team is more talented and in a better position to wins a better team than the past two seasons for sure. Fewer injuries also.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I consider myself rational and while I won't say that O'Brien is better than Vogel, I certainly won't say that Vogel is better than O'Brien. Way, way way too soon to draw any hard conclusions on Vogel. I'll say he's done a nice job through 33 games. He's hasn't coached through a training camp, through preseason games, through the process when the players begin to get sick of hearing you.

    Jim O'Brien has coached about 7 NBA seasons, has goten his team to game 6 of the ECF.

    I think for anyone to conclude that Vogel is a better coach than O'Brien is irrational. Is Vogel a better coach for this Pacers team right now? Of course, but a better coach overall - get back with me after Vogel has coached two or three full seasons.


    Edit: I'm not sure it is entirely fair to include the honeymoon period - the first 8-10 games Vogel coached this team. Any coach would have had a honeymoon period taking over for JOB.

    Pacers did end the season last year 10-4, actually they were 10-2 until the lost their last two games. The schdule to end the year last year was easy, but Vogel's first 10 games schedule was easy. I suppose my point is, I'm not convinced that Vogel is the answer and that is the only question we need to be concerned about. O'Brien is gone, not coming back, so he's not the issue anymore.
    Okay, okay, allow me to qualify my previous statement. No rational person can argue that at this time, for this team, that Vogel is not a better option as head coach than Jim O'Brien.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    I guess going 4 to 5 games under .500 is a late season surge for us. 18-15 is a miracle! When are they putting Frank's statue up in front of Conseco ?

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    I've been saying it almost all along and I say it again:

    I think Frank Vogel is the guy for the job. Let him find an veteran defensive coach for an assistant to add to the bench and I wouldn't be too concerned about having an inexperienced coach with an young, inexperienced team. Give him an offseason and a training camp as the head guy and I think we could be very pleased with what he could do.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    I've been saying it almost all along and I say it again:

    I think Frank Vogel is the guy for the job. Let him find an veteran defensive coach for an assistant to add to the bench and I wouldn't be too concerned about having an inexperienced coach with an young, inexperienced team. Give him an offseason and a training camp as the head guy and I think we could be very pleased with what he could do.
    Wouldn't it be hilarious that Frank could hire Jim as an assistant and mentor him just a little bit !!! NOT !!

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacemaker View Post
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    Wouldn't it be hilarious that Frank could hire Jim as an assistant and mentor him just a little bit !!! NOT !!
    "Now see Jimmy, you can play youth and be successful. Oh, and James Posey is not a "Stretch 4. That's just a terrible idea. And attacking the paint is NOT worth just one point".......
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme
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    Not to mention the next coach might not play the young'ns like Vogel has. I like how many players he uses instead of an 7-8 player rotation of many coaches.
    DC in particular not having a new coach for once in his career would benefit HUGELY from Vogel being retained.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    I've been saying it almost all along and I say it again:

    I think Frank Vogel is the guy for the job. Let him find an veteran defensive coach for an assistant to add to the bench and I wouldn't be too concerned about having an inexperienced coach with an young, inexperienced team. Give him an offseason and a training camp as the head guy and I think we could be very pleased with what he could do.

    Not to mention the next coach might not play the young'ns like Vogel has. I like how many players he uses instead of an 7-8 player rotation of many coaches.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Frank deserves this job now.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I was seeing some comments poo-pooing Frank's 18-15 record by saying something to the effect of 'it could be nothing more than our usual late season surge'.

    Well, let's compare, shall we?

    From the last game of January through the first game of April, here are the records:

    Frank Vogel, 2011: 18-15
    Jim O'Brien, 2010: 12-17
    Jim O'Brien, 2009: 13-16
    Jim O'Brien, 2008: 12-18

    So you thought we needed a thread to pooh on the old coach. (good for you)
    I will just say this debate is utterly pointless. Should we start another thread titled "Is it the players or the coach"? Do we need to argue about wether Bird forced Job to do the things that were already happening when Vogel took over again? Should we talk about the team having a lot of the same issue they had before Vogel or the fact that the season was weighted to allow a late season surge to be expected. The what if game has no value, young players should improve as the season goes on, and Bird has done a good job building our young team.

    I would prefer everyone forget JOB existed and was never a supporter of his, (I didn't like him being a scapegoat for everything ) however I am not impressed with 3 games over .500 against a week schedule either.. I give the credit for improved play to the players, although I won't be shocked if they have another bad game(there young). Truthfully when it comes to the limited sample we don't have enough knowledge to make a true analysis of Vogals impact. We can try But Larry is going to be in a far better position to make this judgement and I leave that decision to him (assuming he stays). I will give Vogel this much though,"he didn't wreck the ship." The old guy gets more than his fair share of blame for the last 3 seasons.
    Last edited by spazzxb; 04-02-2011 at 02:18 AM.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    So you thought we needed a thread to pooh on the old coach. (good for you)
    I will just say this debate is utterly pointless. Should we start another thread titled "Is it the players or the coach"? Do we need to argue about wether Bird forced Job to do the things that were already happening when Vogel took over again? Should we talk about the team having a lot of the same issue they had before Vogel or the fact that the season was weighted to allow a late season surge to be expected. The what if game has no value, young players should improve as the season goes on, and Bird has done a good job building our young team.
    This board discusses all kinds of subjects from the past and argues over things that happened 10 or 15 years ago. It's part of what goes on here.

    Certainly, something that happened this season, in the last couple of months, is in line with the kind of things PD deals with.

    Add to that, there are still a number of posters who aren't willing to admit that JOB was a bad coach or that Vogel shouldn't have replaced him or that Vogel's coaching is the key component to the improved record after getting rid of Jim.

    So, if they are taking those positions, it's fair game to continue discussing it. The subject also continues to be very relevant because the Pacers will soon be deciding whether or not to keep Vogel for next year. How he has performed in contrast to JOB is ABSOLUTELY RELEVANT to that question.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Add to that, there are still a number of posters who aren't willing to admit that JOB was a bad coach or that Vogel shouldn't have replaced him or that Vogel's coaching is the key component to the improved record after getting rid of Jim.

    You may be able annoy someone into not stating there thoughts, however what could possibly be said that is going to cause anyone to change there mind at this point? You talk about your opinions like they are facts, no one needs to admit anything. Maybe I am missing something but the only people I see bringing Job up are the ones trying to complain about him a bit more. I haven't seen anyone (not once) try and make the argument that getting rid of JOB was a mistake.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    So you thought we needed a thread to pooh on the old coach. (good for you)
    You missed the point entirely. It's not about Jim O'Brien. It's about Frank Vogel doing something different than Jim did, when we have people acting like it's exactly the same as the last 3 years. It's not. This is an improvement.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I was seeing some comments poo-pooing Frank's 18-15 record by saying something to the effect of 'it could be nothing more than our usual late season surge'.

    Well, let's compare, shall we?

    From the last game of January through the first game of April, here are the records:

    Frank Vogel, 2011: 18-15
    Jim O'Brien, 2010: 12-17
    Jim O'Brien, 2009: 13-16
    Jim O'Brien, 2008: 12-18

    It does feel different than previous years late-season runs, so I am glad to see W-L stats to support that. 18-15 is .545, so in the land of "What-IF", had they been able to do that all season they would be 42-35 right now and 6th in East. (A good goal for next season)

    As it is, I think more importantly they have gone 8-4 since the most recent dreadful 6-game losing streak, including wins over Bulls and Celtics, both teams they had known they could be facing in the postseason. (FYI - they went 11-6 after their previous 6-game skid in January, including the 2 competitive loses to Miami)

    Just think of how differently we would be talking about these Pacers had they not dropped those terrible games to Kings and Detroit this month - they would be winners of 7 straight and 10 of 12.

    Is it possible these young Pacers are learning how to win in the NBA? Improving their game-closing abilities? It's the NBA, so young teams are going to have bad losses and many of their wins will come ugly. But I remember the Pacer teams that were annual playoff contenders having to scrape out a lot of tight games with ugly wins too.

    Come playoff time our starting line up will only have a total of 14 NBA seasons experience, which by my quick count says the Pacers are the 2nd youngest starting lineup in the NBA, behind only Washington.

    Collison: 2nd NBA season / 1st as starter / 23 years old
    George: 1st NBA season / 1st as starter / 20 year old
    Granger: 6th NBA season / 5th as starter / 27 years old
    Hansbrough: 2nd NBA season / 1st as starter / 25 years old
    HIbbert: 3rd NBA season / 2nd as starter / 24 years old


    Wizards (Wall 1/20, Crawford 2/22, Young 4/25, Jianlian 4/23, Mcgee 3/23): 2.8 NBA seasons / 22.6 years
    Pacers: (see above): 2.8 NBA seasons / 23.8 years
    Thunder: (Westbrook 3/22, Sefalosa 5/26, Durant 4/22, Ibaka 2/21, Perkins 8/26): 4.4 NBA seasons / 23.4 years
    Wolves (Ridnour 8/ 30, Johnson 1/23, Beasley 3/22, Love 3/22, Pekovic 1/25): 3.0 NBA seasons / 24.4 years

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenweezil View Post
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    It does feel different than previous years late-season runs, so I am glad to see W-L stats to support that. 18-15 is .545, so in the land of "What-IF", had they been able to do that all season they would be 42-35 right now and 6th in East. (A good goal for next season)

    As it is, I think more importantly they have gone 8-4 since the most recent dreadful 6-game losing streak, including wins over Bulls and Celtics, both teams they had known they could be facing in the postseason. (FYI - they went 11-6 after their previous 6-game skid in January, including the 2 competitive loses to Miami)

    Just think of how differently we would be talking about these Pacers had they not dropped those terrible games to Kings and Detroit this month - they would be winners of 7 straight and 10 of 12.

    Is it possible these young Pacers are learning how to win in the NBA? Improving their game-closing abilities? It's the NBA, so young teams are going to have bad losses and many of their wins will come ugly. But I remember the Pacer teams that were annual playoff contenders having to scrape out a lot of tight games with ugly wins too.

    Come playoff time our starting line up will only have a total of 14 NBA seasons experience, which by my quick count says the Pacers are the 2nd youngest starting lineup in the NBA, behind only Washington.

    Collison: 2nd NBA season / 1st as starter / 23 years old
    George: 1st NBA season / 1st as starter / 20 year old
    Granger: 6th NBA season / 5th as starter / 27 years old
    Hansbrough: 2nd NBA season / 1st as starter / 25 years old
    HIbbert: 3rd NBA season / 2nd as starter / 24 years old


    Wizards (Wall 1/20, Crawford 2/22, Young 4/25, Jianlian 4/23, Mcgee 3/23): 2.8 NBA seasons / 22.6 years
    Pacers: (see above): 2.8 NBA seasons / 23.8 years
    Thunder: (Westbrook 3/22, Sefalosa 5/26, Durant 4/22, Ibaka 2/21, Perkins 8/26): 4.4 NBA seasons / 23.4 years
    Wolves (Ridnour 8/ 30, Johnson 1/23, Beasley 3/22, Love 3/22, Pekovic 1/25): 3.0 NBA seasons / 24.4 years
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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenweezil View Post
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    It does feel different than previous years late-season runs, so I am glad to see W-L stats to support that. 18-15 is .545, so in the land of "What-IF", had they been able to do that all season they would be 42-35 right now and 6th in East. (A good goal for next season)

    As it is, I think more importantly they have gone 8-4 since the most recent dreadful 6-game losing streak, including wins over Bulls and Celtics, both teams they had known they could be facing in the postseason. (FYI - they went 11-6 after their previous 6-game skid in January, including the 2 competitive loses to Miami)

    Just think of how differently we would be talking about these Pacers had they not dropped those terrible games to Kings and Detroit this month - they would be winners of 7 straight and 10 of 12.

    Is it possible these young Pacers are learning how to win in the NBA? Improving their game-closing abilities? It's the NBA, so young teams are going to have bad losses and many of their wins will come ugly. But I remember the Pacer teams that were annual playoff contenders having to scrape out a lot of tight games with ugly wins too.

    Come playoff time our starting line up will only have a total of 14 NBA seasons experience, which by my quick count says the Pacers are the 2nd youngest starting lineup in the NBA, behind only Washington.

    Collison: 2nd NBA season / 1st as starter / 23 years old
    George: 1st NBA season / 1st as starter / 20 year old
    Granger: 6th NBA season / 5th as starter / 27 years old
    Hansbrough: 2nd NBA season / 1st as starter / 25 years old
    HIbbert: 3rd NBA season / 2nd as starter / 24 years old


    Wizards (Wall 1/20, Crawford 2/22, Young 4/25, Jianlian 4/23, Mcgee 3/23): 2.8 NBA seasons / 22.6 years
    Pacers: (see above): 2.8 NBA seasons / 23.8 years
    Thunder: (Westbrook 3/22, Sefalosa 5/26, Durant 4/22, Ibaka 2/21, Perkins 8/26): 4.4 NBA seasons / 23.4 years
    Wolves (Ridnour 8/ 30, Johnson 1/23, Beasley 3/22, Love 3/22, Pekovic 1/25): 3.0 NBA seasons / 24.4 years
    I thought we were number two once George took the SG spot, but its interesting to see that the thunder are now number three after the Perkins acquisition. Beyond the youth of the starting lineup, I believe DJ and Posey are the only players older than Danny that we have under contract for next season. The other day I actually goggle "youngest nba starting lineups", didn't find it, did you put this together yourself?
    Last edited by spazzxb; 04-02-2011 at 03:02 AM.

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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I was seeing some comments poo-pooing Frank's 18-15 record by saying something to the effect of 'it could be nothing more than our usual late season surge'.

    Well, let's compare, shall we?

    From the last game of January through the first game of April, here are the records:

    Frank Vogel, 2011: 18-15
    Jim O'Brien, 2010: 12-17
    Jim O'Brien, 2009: 13-16
    Jim O'Brien, 2008: 12-18

    Thanks for going through the trouble to put this together, this is what I had guessed to be the case but didn't know for sure.

  32. #22
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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Yep, if the vast majority of posters observe an improvement in performance overall with a better record and a decided difference in playing style, differences in rotations that happen to coincide with the prevailing opinion the board has had for about two years prior to the change having been made, differences in how much time is being given to younger and more effective players which also matches what many here had been calling for, and an overall positive difference in player and team attitudes (except when Lance got inserted and apparently caused issues, which was then quickly corrected) that has been very evident even beyond the honeymoon period, there is no way anyone could possibly reach any type of conclusion who the better coach is, when even the players who have played for both have all but come straight out in the media with their own conclusions that appear to be the same ones that most of us, as posters, seem to be coming up with.

    Nope, there is no way that any of us can conclude anything ever, really...

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  34. #23
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yep, if the vast majority of posters observe an improvement in performance overall with a better record and a decided difference in playing style, differences in rotations that happen to coincide with the prevailing opinion the board has had for about two years prior to the change having been made, differences in how much time is being given to younger and more effective players which also matches what many here had been calling for, and an overall positive difference in player and team attitudes (except when Lance got inserted and apparently caused issues, which was then quickly corrected) that has been very evident even beyond the honeymoon period, there is no way anyone could possibly reach any type of conclusion who the better coach is, when even the players who have played for both have all but come straight out in the media with their own conclusions that appear to be the same ones that most of us, as posters, seem to be coming up with.

    Nope, there is no way that any of us can conclude anything ever, really...
    Exactly.

    At some point, you have to tell your buddy Descartes to get a life. You exist, dude.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  36. #24

    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    It is hard to determine how good Vogel can be or not be. He's looking pretty good though compared to the previous 4 years.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

  37. #25
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    Default Re: '11 Frank versus '10, '09, and '08 Jim: Last game of Jan through First game of April

    For the record, I did not put much stock at all into the 10-4 record to finish last season. The schedule was easy, the team was out of it, I was not impressed. I even posted in this forum that if I were in charge I think it is time to replace the coach, that replacing the coach will most likley get us more wins this season........I also wanted significant player changes in the offseason. So I never thought, wow, we've turned the corner

    Hicks, I think I posted something like this year is like the past few seasons with a fast finish, it was an offhanded remark, not something I really believed in strongly, just throwing it out there for the fun of it. The worst thing about any forum or just the written word is impossible to determine how strongly the writer feels about something.

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