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Thread: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    I would like for Josh to come back, I'm just not sure what could be worse? Reading Seth's,MR or BWD posts telling us how amazing Josh is and everybody else sucks or reading Seth's,MR or BWD posts telling us how amazing Josh is in another team and how stupid the Pacers are for letting him go.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    First of all, "Tosh" is the correct answer...

    Lastly, on comparing the two, Tyler is clearly busting his *** to be an overachiever, and sometimes Josh comes across as an underachiever because the talent is clearly there to be quite good, and sometimes he looks like he is coasting by his higher standards that his body/talent demands.

    I think that's another reason some like Tyler better. If both are B grade power forwards, you sense that Tyler is killing himself to turn his C- natural ability into a B level guy, but with Josh it's like an A level natural ability that he has yet to consistently live up to.
    Thanks. Very well stated.... no EXTREMELY well stated.

    I don't think anyone would argue with a statement that Josh is the more graceful athlete. Things that he is able to do athletically are made to look easy. It is easy to see that he has a very decent bball IQ just from acknowledging the vision he has in support of his passing abilities.

    I've never doubted that Josh's motor is just as high as Tyler's... it's just that it is easier to acknowledge Tyler's motor because his game is so physical... it usually involves bodies moving all over the place near the basket. On the other hand, Josh's game does not usually involve nearly as much contact.

    I would love to see it all come together on a consistent basis for Josh... game after game after game.

    If we were able to get consistency out of both players, then certainly from an offensive standpoint there would be no need to look at other PFs. Over time, it could then be determined whether there was enough collective defensive improvement in the three players (Roy, Tyler, Josh) to warrant not having to spend big dollars for a defensive upgrade.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I would like for Josh to come back, I'm just not sure what could be worse? Reading Seth's,MR or BWD posts telling us how amazing Josh is and everybody else sucks or reading Seth's,MR or BWD posts telling us how amazing Josh is in another team and how stupid the Pacers are for letting him go.
    I was going to ignore your comment earlier, just like I'm close to making you the first and only poster on my ignore list. However, since you keep calling me out by name, I feel the need to respond.

    Find some of my posts where I am "telling us how great he is while trashing the other players and specially the one that Mcbob lost his starting spot to?" I have said many, many times, when Josh was starting, when Tyler started, when Josh started again, and now that Tyler is starting again, that it doesn't matter who starts. They are interchangeable pieces. Pieces that fit together differently with the other parts, but individually they are interchangeable, even though they both offer different advantages and disadvantages from the other.

    Find some of my posts where "tell you how amazing Josh is." Find some of my posts where I "tell you everybody else sucks." Find some of my posts where I "tell you how amazing Josh is in another team and how stupid the Pacers are for letting him go."

    These posts that you are referencing do not exist.

    Josh has had a good couple of games, and is due to have a bad one. Just like Tyler had a good stretch of games and was due for a bad stretch. That's all I ever said.

    Stop making this whole debate into something that it isn't.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I don't think Danny and Tyler should be on the floor together as much. We need them both to be the go-to scorers when in the game.

    Interesting, Vogel is actually addressing that somewhat by pulling Danny early and reinserting him earlier in the second quarter.

    But starting those two doesn't work that well, in my opinion.
    I actually like having both of them on the floor at the same time. Because of the attention that he SOMETIMES garners on the defensive end....it does relieve some of the pressure that other Teams put on Granger. IMHO....the offense is really efficient when Granger/Hansbrough/Hibbert are "on" when it comes to scoring....it makes it that much harder for the other Team to defend everyone. Especially when it comes to Granger's game....he's a more efficient scorer when the primary focus of the defense isn't placed entirely on him. When McBob is on the floor with him......it allows the opposing Team to leave him alone on the defensive end so that they can focus more on Hibbert and Granger.

    Besides, I like McBob and Dunleavy on the floor at the same time.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BKK View Post
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    I am 50/50 on moving BRush in the offseason too especially in this case where Mike is retained as a backup 3. BRush will compensate Mike's weaknesses on defense and vice versa on offense... My only problem with this (and that also applies to a certain extent to the starting lineup) is that we would lack a true slasher. That's why I'd like a Mayo type of player. If he can be had for a 1st of Rush we'd have more stability and true talent at the 2 position (I mean true as an authentic 2, not a combo 2-3). Anyway I like what Mike brings to the floor but you have to pair him with a good defender be it Rush, George or DJones.
    BRush is a conundrum wrapped in a riddle and covered in nougat.....half the time..when he plays like the way that he's been playing over the last couple of games.....I ( and probably half the forum ) doesn't want him moved....then the other half of him that disappears for games on end decides to show up and the entire forum wants him gone.

    I really have no clue on what to do with BRush. I guess it all comes down to who we can get in the offseason. If we can get a very solid starting SG ( like Mayo or JRich ), then I'd miss Dunleavy's ball movement but I'd be okay with seeing him gone.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    First of all, "Tosh" is the correct answer.

    But to the question of why Josh isn't more well liked, I can't claim to know why for anyone besides myself.

    My guess is some people aren't big fans of his unique style, and perhaps for others it's some lingering bias from Josh's HS and/or college days.

    For me, it's a little bit of the former, except on nights like last night when, along with his usual game, he's also attacking a bit and really eating the glass. When he does those things along with his usual game, I love him.

    That aside, the pro-Josh/anti-Tyler commentary dampens my enthusiasm sometimes. But I realize that's not Josh's fault.

    Lastly, on comparing the two, Tyler is clearly busting his *** to be an overachiever, and sometimes Josh comes across as an underachiever because the talent is clearly there to be quite good, and sometimes he looks like he is coasting, by the higher standards that his body/talent demands.

    I think that's another reason some like Tyler better. If both are B grade power forwards, you sense that Tyler is killing himself to turn his C- natural ability into a B level guy, but with Josh it's like an A level natural ability that he has yet to consistently live up to.
    As you said...it's not that there is any anti-McBob hate out there...it's more that IMHO there are 2 camps...those that LOVE McBob and think he's the greatest thing since slice bread.....and then there are those that likes McBob but doesn't think that he's just another athletic backup PF with some solid passing skills.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    I was going to ignore your comment earlier, just like I'm close to making you the first and only poster on my ignore list. However, since you keep calling me out by name, I feel the need to respond.

    Find some of my posts where I am "telling us how great he is while trashing the other players and specially the one that Mcbob lost his starting spot to?" I have said many, many times, when Josh was starting, when Tyler started, when Josh started again, and now that Tyler is starting again, that it doesn't matter who starts. They are interchangeable pieces. Pieces that fit together differently with the other parts, but individually they are interchangeable, even though they both offer different advantages and disadvantages from the other.

    These posts that you are referencing do not exist.
    .
    I think you need to take a chill pill, what happen with the "this is just an Internet forum and I don't get upset about it"?
    Do you really want me to find a post about every single comment you and the other guys make? You don't say that the other players suck exactly but you trash Danny any time you have a chance, you do the same thing with DC(I agree with you about DC) I think I'm going to stop calling your name, I didn't know you would get this upset, sorry for that.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I actually like having both of them on the floor at the same time. Because of the attention that he SOMETIMES garners on the defensive end....it does relieve some of the pressure that other Teams put on Granger. IMHO....the offense is really efficient when Granger/Hansbrough/Hibbert are "on" when it comes to scoring....it makes it that much harder for the other Team to defend everyone. Especially when it comes to Granger's game....he's a more efficient scorer when the primary focus of the defense isn't placed entirely on him. When McBob is on the floor with him......it allows the opposing Team to leave him alone on the defensive end so that they can focus more on Hibbert and Granger.
    The problem is that they are almost never "on" when they are playing together.

    http://www.82games.com/1011/1011IND2.HTM

    3 of our 20 most used lineups include a frontcourt of Granger, Hansbrough, and Hibbert.

    Group 1: They've played 152.1 minutes paired with Collison and Dunleavy. That group scores 1.02 per possession and allows 0.98.

    Group 2: They've played 66.0 minutes paired with Collison and Rush. That group scores 1.05 per possession and allows 1.08.

    Group 3: They've played 63.4 minutes paired with Collison and George. That group (our current startering lineup) scores just 0.90 points per possession and allows a whopping 1.31

    Exchanging Tyler for Josh has done the following:

    Group 1: 439.2 minutes scoring 1.14 points per possession allowing 0.99. (By far our best group and also the most minutes. In fact, this group is schockingly among the best in the league.)

    Group 2: 198.2 minutes scoring 1.03 and allowing 1.13 per possession.

    Group 3: 41.4 minutes scoring 1.09 and allowing 1.16.

    So while in theory we should be able to score more efficiently with Danny, Tyler, and Roy all "on", it has not worked in practice. Mostly because they can't all be "on" at the same time. In every group the offense has been more efficient with Josh between Danny and Roy than it has with Tyler.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Anyone else find it funny that everyone say's we're all in agreement about Tyler and Josh but how it turns into an argument every freaking opportunity?

    If we're in agreement, then the damn discussion shouldn't be taking place every other day.

    Moving on........

    I really liked Roy tonight, although he didn't have many FGA. What I really liked seeing is when he caught the ball of the left block and identified that Rip was going to be coming down and doubling when he put the ball on the floor. Roy then took one dribble towards the help and then quickly spun baseline for the bucket.

    Great recognition by Roy.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    "Tosh.Board" or "Tosh.Nasty" or "Daniel McHansdunk"

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I think you need to take a chill pill, what happen with the "this is just an Internet forum and I don't get upset about it"?
    Do you really want me to find a post about every single comment you and the other guys make? You don't say that the other players suck exactly but you trash Danny any time you have a chance, you do the same thing with DC(I agree with you about DC) I think I'm going to stop calling your name, I didn't know you would get this upset, sorry for that.
    I am not upset about it, but I would like you to find an example of these posts you are referencing.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    I actually thought Josh had a better game against Boston.

    Here's Seth's point..Josh was very good tonight, and very good last night. In fact, despite not having equal stats (because they are different players) Josh has played the last two games as well as Tyler has played in his stretch..and yet..there are no "Josh could be a future all star" posts. There are no "Josh is definitely the best PF on the team" nor are there any "Josh is the answer at PF" posts.

    As a fan of Josh, I'm sure that's annoying. Like he's being slighted.

    Here's the thing that Josh's fans miss, imo. The other PF is Tyler F'ing Hansbrough. You know, possibly best college career ever Tyler F'ing Hansbrough. Of course Tyler is going to have a ton more fans. Of course people are going to project that he'll be a great player, over someone like Josh. Who really wasn't all that well known. (I definitely didn't know him until I started watching the Pacers. Although, I personally like Josh and Tyler equally. And I think they are about the same level player.)

    Personally, I think the problem with the starting lineup, is that the guys who are supposed to score (DC, Hibbert, Roy) aren't consistent. So you almost need another option like Hans, because we don't have a SG that can score a ton. (Unless we put Dun out there..but then defense should be fun..) The problem then becomes that the ball doesn't move very much (The difference last night, between the second unit's ball movement and the first unit's ball movement was striking. Particularly when it was Second unit + Roy..which will actually probably become a really interesting unit for us.) And the second unit doesn't have a scoring threat in the post.

    So I'm not sure that I buy that it doesn't matter which of the two starts. But I'm not sure which of the two should start. I will say, so long as the starting lineup doesn't dig too big of a hole (or the second unit...which because there is no scoring threat in the post..probably will happen because..as we've seen..Price, Dun, and Rush are capable of all going cold at the same time) Vogel plays whichever one is playing well, the most minutes.
    Last edited by Sookie; 04-01-2011 at 12:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by El Pacero View Post
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    Haha, this was a great story. You guys had a unique dissonant arrangement to change it up for once. Nice job and funny stuff.
    My dad actually wrote that arrangement haha another fun fact for ya

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    The problem is that they are almost never "on" when they are playing together.

    http://www.82games.com/1011/1011IND2.HTM

    3 of our 20 most used lineups include a frontcourt of Granger, Hansbrough, and Hibbert.

    Group 1: They've played 152.1 minutes paired with Collison and Dunleavy. That group scores 1.02 per possession and allows 0.98.

    Group 2: They've played 66.0 minutes paired with Collison and Rush. That group scores 1.05 per possession and allows 1.08.

    Group 3: They've played 63.4 minutes paired with Collison and George. That group (our current startering lineup) scores just 0.90 points per possession and allows a whopping 1.31

    Exchanging Tyler for Josh has done the following:

    Group 1: 439.2 minutes scoring 1.14 points per possession allowing 0.99. (By far our best group and also the most minutes. In fact, this group is schockingly among the best in the league.)

    Group 2: 198.2 minutes scoring 1.03 and allowing 1.13 per possession.

    Group 3: 41.4 minutes scoring 1.09 and allowing 1.16.

    So while in theory we should be able to score more efficiently with Danny, Tyler, and Roy all "on", it has not worked in practice. Mostly because they can't all be "on" at the same time. In every group the offense has been more efficient with Josh between Danny and Roy than it has with Tyler.
    What stood out to me from those numbers is how shockingly effective Dunleavy at SG is compared to Rush or George.

    Usual caveat for 5-man +/- is the sample size of course. Still, those 100+ minute lineups seem pretty compelling to me.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    What stood out to me from those numbers is how shockingly effective Dunleavy at SG is compared to Rush or George.

    Usual caveat for 5-man +/- is the sample size of course. Still, those 100+ minute lineups seem pretty compelling to me.
    Absolutely.

    Dunleavy has easily been one of the most efficient Pacers this season. Considering the amount of minutes he's played I would say he's been the most efficient Pacer.

    Of the players who have have played more than 30% of the available minutes his efficiency is right near the top.

    McRoberts has played 39% of the minutes and we score 1.08 and allow 1.05 points per possession with him on the floor.

    Dunleavy has played 52% of the minutes and we score 1.07 and allow 1.05 points per possession with him on the floor.

    Unfortunately those are the only two who are net positives while hitting the 30% minute threshold. Foster, Price, D. Jones, and Stephenson are also positive but haven't played enough.

    Granger has played 72% of the minutes and we score 1.06 and allow 1.07 points per possession with him on the floor.

    Hibbert has played 57% of the minutes we score 1.05 and allow 1.06 points per possession with him on the floor.

    Hansbrough has played 31% of the minutes and we score 1.05 and allow 1.08 points per possession with him on the floor.

    Collison has played 59% of the minutes and we score 1.06 and allow 1.09 points per possession with him on the floor.

    Rush has played 43% of the minutes and we score 1.04 and allow 1.09 points per possession with him on the floor.

    George (Off. 1.06 Def. 1.09), Ford, Posey, and S. Jones are also net negatives but they haven't played 30% of the minutes. Though George at 26% could potentially reach that mark by the end of the year.

    It is almost sad how poor Rush has been. It certainly seems like we should be a better team with Rush (or George) on the floor than with Dunleavy. Unfortunately, that has been far from the case.
    Last edited by BRushWithDeath; 03-31-2011 at 03:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Wow...when you look the 82games stats that BRushwithDeath put up...that tells me one thing:

    The most effective lineup that we have is:

    DC/Dunleavy/Granger/McBob/Hibbert ( +125 )

    and the 2nd most effective lineup that we have is:

    AJ/Inferno/PG/Hansbrough/Foster ( +31 )

    basically the lineup that Vogel used during when we started with the Goon Squad in the 2nd unit.

    I guess the question is......do these +/- numbers tell the whole story?

    Clearly...having Dunleavy start against the Heat didn't work as we got torched by DWade and we couldn't really recover. But it's not like we play DWade all the time.

    Can these lineups be continually used for all situations?

    or

    Is this one of those situations where we simply live with the "minuses" that come along with all the "pluses" by using the lineups this way?

    Given that PG and Hansbrough appears to have hit a wall....maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea.
    Last edited by CableKC; 03-31-2011 at 03:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Wow...when you look the 82games stats that BRushwithDeath put up...that tells me one thing:

    The most effective lineup that we have is:

    DC/Dunleavy/Granger/McBob/Hibbert ( +125 )

    and the 2nd most effective lineup that we have is:

    AJ/Inferno/PG/Hansbrough/Foster ( +31 )

    basically the lineup that Vogel used during when we started with the Goon Squad in the 2nd unit.

    I guess the question is......do these +/- numbers tell the whole story?

    Clearly...having Dunleavy start against the Heat didn't work as we got torched by DWade and we couldn't really recover. But it's not like we play DWade all the time.

    Can these lineups be continually used for all situations?

    or

    Is this one of those situations where we simply live with the "minuses" that come along with all the "pluses" by using the lineups this way?

    Given that PG and Hansbrough appears to have hit a wall....maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea.
    I think the numbers are reflecting what's happening quite well. The starting unit works better with McBob and Dunleavy because they're not exactly looking for touches. Both of their games promote movement on the offensive end. With PG and Hans in,everyone is looking for their shot and it makes the offense stagnant at times.

    The Goon Squad gives PG and Hans a chance to get theirs while only having to worry about Price as the only other option. Playing these lineups gives us steady scoring throughout.

    I think we need to go back to starting Dun and Josh vs the Bulls (providing we meet them in the playoffs). Their bench is the best defensive bench...possibly ever. They also get no production at all from their shooting guards. Their 2s would actually hide Dunleavy's man-defense.

    Pacers,baby!

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    There's a chicken and the egg question here:

    Do the stats make those lineups seem best because they actually are the best, or are they just a reflection of the lineups we played during Frank's honeymoon period after JOB got fired and the weaker schedule we had at that same time?

    The answer is probably somewhere in the middle, but it's something to keep in mind.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    There's a chicken and the egg question here:

    Do the stats make those lineups seem best because they actually are the best, or are they just a reflection of the lineups we played during Frank's honeymoon period after JOB got fired and the weaker schedule we had at that same time?

    The answer is probably somewhere in the middle, but it's something to keep in mind.
    The first unit played 269 minutes under O'Brien, was +91 (+16.2 per 48 minutes), scored 1.13 points per possession and allowed 0.95 points per possession. They played 171 minutes under Vogel, were +34 (+9.5 per 48), scored 1.15 ppp and allowed 1.06 ppp.

    The "goon squad" played entirely under Vogel, and the 93 minutes shown on 82games was from 1/31 through 3/4. They played another 7 minutes since then, going -7 in those games for a total +24.

    They are really the product of three good games. The two Miami games in February (+19 in 16 minutes, 1.67 scored, 1.03 allowed), and the Minnesota game at Conseco (+7 in 6.5 minutes, 1.67 scored, 1.08 allowed). The Minnesota game is driven by Dahntay's 4th quarter explosion.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Honestly at this point the only +/- stats I care about are from the post-JOB time frame.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    I'm sorry but those stats don't tell me s***

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I'm sorry but those stats don't tell me s***
    What exactly would?
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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HeliumFear View Post
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    With PG and Hans in,everyone is looking for their shot and it makes the offense stagnant at times.

    The Goon Squad gives PG and Hans a chance to get theirs while only having to worry about Price as the only other option. Playing these lineups gives us steady scoring throughout.

    Are you confusing PG with Dahntay? I don't see Paul George ball hogging at all.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    What exactly would?
    There is way too many things to take into account, Roy sucking, Danny sucking, JOB as the coach, Vogel as the coach, players with their feelings hurt, players finally playing to win, Dunleavy hurt, Dunleavy healthy, AJ making shots, AJ not making shots, playing againts winning teams, playing againts losing teams, stats tell you one thing but don't tell you the whole picture, this to me is pretty much like the stats the "JOB supporters" would show us to tell us how good of a coach he was and as we all know he sucked.

    I could also say that this team is 10 games under .500 and if your best team according to the stats is keeping you under .500 you always need to find ways to increase the wins, I also remember when he had people telling us that the best lineup was when we had Troy last year and Posey this year starting and if I can remember right, the "Josh Mc Roberts camp" disagreed with those stats just like me.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Detroit postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Are you confusing PG with Dahntay? I don't see Paul George ball hogging at all.
    Agreed. If anything, Paul could stand to be a little bit more aggressive with the ball.

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