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Thread: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

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    Default Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

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    Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    FEBRUARY 19, 2011
    BY: ZACHARIAH BLOTT


    So Reggie Miller just got left off the list of 12 Hall of Fame finalists for 2011, and damn near everyone can't believe it. Fans are having a really hard time believing one of the gameís best 3-point shooters and clutch playoff performers ever isnít even on the list of finalists. Iím here to tell you: thank you anonymous voters.

    Letís start with the obvious. You donít care about the Naismith Memorial Hall of Fame. Iím guessing that if you have never lived within 50 miles of it, you never went. Iím also guessing if you had the choice of a weekend trip in Springfield, MA, or in Cooperstown, NY, youíre headed to the Baseball Hall of Fame Ė and Iím talking to an audience of basketball fans. Itís not the NBA Hall of Fame, but a generic basketball hall with 59 enshrined contributors, 8 teams, 13 refs, 82 coaches, and less than 90 players who ever played in an NBA, BAA, or ABA game. Think about that: all the other people you donít care about far outnumber the players who actually got you interested in the game Ė and oh yeah, 25 of those players primarily played in the 40ís and 50ís, so many are in there for their ďpioneerĒ status.

    OK, we got that out of the way. Now on to the supposed atrocity of Reggie Millerís rejection in his first year of eligibility for the Hall. Iím going to keep this real simple; Iím not going to do a full-blown investigation of every moment and statistic and all of that. Either he showed HOF dominance during his career or he didnít. Not a few moments Ė there are 50 to 75 guys playing right now who can give us great moments that win some games. Actual HOF dominance.

    His career stats are not dominant. 18 ppg, 3 apg, 3 rpg. No question his 3FG% and FT% are very good (career .395 shooter from deep Ė not as great as you thought it was, is it?), but he was almost always his teamís top scorer, and he averaged only 18 ppg for his career. He finished in the top-10 in ppg only once in his career: 8th in 1989-90 with 24.6 ppg. As far as his biggest skill--hitting three-pointers--goes, he wasn't exactly dominant. More like consistently above-average. Miller once lead the league in makes by a slim margin, once tied for the league lead in makes, and never lead the league in 3-point percentage (was 3rd in 1993-94, his only top-5 finish in that category). Thatís how un-dominant his stats were. Playoffs, you say? 21 ppg, 2.5 apg, and 3 rpg. Still not dominant. Outside of his stats we have a bad passer (for a guard), a mediocre-at-best defender, and a guy you couldnít design your offense around. I say that last part because he had to run off screens to get open for catch-and-shoots, which ties up your big men on the perimeter and forces the PG to stall with the ball until heís open. You donít win championships that way, and he didnít.

    But wasnít he considered great when he was playing? 15 seasons, 5 All-Star Games. Huh, that isnít that impressive. Joe Johnson has 5 in 10 years. Chauncey Billups has 5 in 14 years. Steve Nash has 7 in 15 years. And those are just guards from last yearís game.

    Maybe he was considered dominant by another measure? Not MVP voting. Miller received MVP votes in only two seasons. He finished 13th in 2000 (with 1 vote, tied with Darrell Armstrong, Michael Finley, and teammate Jalen Rose) and 16th in 1998 (with 2 votes, tied with teammate Rik Smits). Just so you didn't miss that, Miller never received more MVP votes than one of his teammates. No, nothing even remotely resembling dominance there.

    How about making All-NBA teams? Miller finished on the 3rd-team three times. Thatís it. Over 15 seasons, he was considered one of the leagueís 15 best players only three times, and never one of its 10 best. In 1995, he got the sixth and final guard spot, behind Anfernee Hardaway, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, and Clyde Drexler (Jordan would have knocked Miller off the list) Ė 4 of those are of the ďno crapĒ variety, and the other is Richmond. In 1996, Miller finished behind AH, MJ, GP, JS, and was on the third-team with Richmond. No dice in 1997 due to Tim Hardaway, MJ, GP, Richmond, AH, and JS. Then he made the 3rd-team for the final time in 1998, behind MJ, GP, Tim Hardaway, Rod Strickland, and joined Richmond on the final squad. I point out Hardaway, Richmond, and Strickland specifically because no one thinks of them as HOFíers, yet thatís who Miller was finishing beside or behind regularly. In fact, those three all made the NBAís 2nd-team or better at least once Ė but that was never the case for Miller. See those ďno crapĒ guys? Those are your real HOFíers (minus Anfernee Hardawayís unfortunate injury issues that derailed his career).

    I really donít need to go further (but I will add that Basketball-Reference's HOF calculator gives Miller a 5.5% chance, good for 190th all-time, right in between Larry Siegfried and Dan Roundfield - oh yeah). He wasnít dominant. Some dominant moments? Sure. Some shots and playoff series you remember? Yes. Hall of Fame career? Not even close.

    Just for fun, letís see how well he matches up with the other guards in the HOF (32 total). Iím only going to look at those whose careers werenít primarily played in the 40ís and 50ís (down to 24). And letís be honest, we already know heís not Jordan, or Magic, or West, or Oscar, so Iíll only compare him to the fringe HOF guards who some people might say Miller is better than. Keep in mind that the 3rd-team was added to the All-NBA squads in 1989, so most of these players were fighting for a top-10 selection, which Miller never accomplished. Also, MVP ballots went from voting for top-3 to top-5 in 1981, so it was much harder to get votes before then (Miller never finished top-3 on a ballot).

    K.C. Jones, 1958-67
    Jones only played 9 seasons, but he was the starting PG on 7 straight Champions (and played on another), was a great defender, and he finished in the top-10 in apg four times, placing as high as 3rd two times. Itís tough to call this a HOF career because really he had the good fortune of playing beside Bill Russell Ė itís truly difficult to rate any of Russí teammates. Itís not a stretch to say part of the reason he got voted in in 1989 was due to recently coaching the 1984 and 1986 Championship Celtics; everyone had those warm fuzzy ďheís a winnerĒ vibes going at the time. Still, I got Jones over Miller.

    Tom Gola, 1955-66
    His nickname was ďMr. All-Around,Ē so Iím willing to bet he was more than a one-trick pony like Miller. He played in 5 All-Star Games in 10 years, made the NBAís 2nd-team once, played for a Championship team, finished in the top-10 in rebounds once, and finished in the top-10 in assists four times. Gola certainly doesnít overwhelm you as a Hall of Famer, but the voters love their old-timers, and heís also partially there because of his stand-out college career (first in history to reach 2,000 points and 2,000 rebounds, is still the top collegiate rebounder ever with 2,201). That alone makes this a bad comparison, but Gola still reached more milestones of dominance. Gola over Miller.

    Dave Bing, 1966-78
    Bing played in 7 All-Star Games, earned All-NBA 1st-Team selection twice, 2nd-team once, received MVP votes in 5 different seasons (including finishing between 3rd and 6th three times), was a top-10 scorer four times (as high as 2nd), and a top-10 assist man 8 times. Not even close: Bing over Miller.

    Gail Goodrich, 1965-79
    Goodrich played in 5 All-Star Games, made the NBAís 1st-team in 1974, and was the leading scorer on the 1972 Championship Lakers that featured Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, and Elgin Baylor. Also, he was a top-10 ppg finisher 5 times, and a top-10 apg finisher 4 times. Goodrich over Miller.

    Calvin Murphy, 1970-83
    Murphyís HOF credentials as a pro are flimsy. A big part of his inclusion was his absolutely stellar prep career (33 ppg over three college seasons, and 49 ppg on the freshmen team before he was allowed to play varsity Ė plus he was a 2-time high school All-American) and everyone liked that he was an accomplished player despite only standing 5-feet-9, so a comparison to Millerís credentials is a really bad one to make. Murphy played in one All-Star Game, finished in the top-10 in scoring twice, top-3 in apg twice, top-10 in steals per game once and was also well known for his great shooting. Itís really tough to argue that he had a HOF career just based on his NBA dominance (he didnít), but he certainly was more well-rounded than Miller. Miller may have a better argument than Murphy simply based on their pro careers, but Murphy would have certainly gotten some MVP votes in 1974, Ď76, Ď78, and maybe even Ď79 and Ď80 if the ballots were top-5 then instead of top-3, so it's not hard to say the opposite is true. This one might be even, but understand that part of Murphyís inclusion is because of his pre-NBA exploits.

    Thatís about it as far as fringe Hall of Famer guards, and old-timers will gladly tell you that Bing was the real deal and is not fringe at all (I only put him in there because many younger fans donít know him and might assume Miller is better than someone they don't know). Most of these guys got some consideration for other things--college careers, coaching, being short--yet their pro dominance usually outshined Millerís anyway.

    I hope the anonymous committee continues to keep Miller out because he just didnít show that he was a HOF-caliber player. We love his highlights of clutch performances, but letís not kid ourselves: he had some Hall of Fame moments, but nothing even close to a Hall of Fame career.

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    Fat, Drunk and Stupid Lord Helmet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    This guy assumes a lot of things.
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Whoever wrote this article shouldn't consider themselves a basketball fan. Reggie is for sure HOF talent in my book. The only thing that the author focused on was pure stats and other unnecessary information. He didn't mention anything about his clutch shots, leadership, loyalty, and his true love for the game. Even if Reggie never makes the HOF, he will always be a legend to me.

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    This will go over well on a Pacers fan website.

    psssssssssssssssssttttt....while I don't share his attitude about keeping Reggie out, overall the article is correct.


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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Reggie will make the Hall of Fame eventually, whether this guy likes it or not, so I wouldn't worry about it.

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    Over the pond ballism's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Can't wait for one more 20 page discussion about Reggie and HOF with people calling each other fan boys and worse. What would we do without them?

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    He made Indiana relevant during the 90's. That's good enough for me.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    Reggie will make the Hall of Fame eventually, whether this guy likes it or not, so I wouldn't worry about it.
    All I can say to that is not even making the ballot calls into question whether Reggie will ever be in the HoF.

    Unless each voter ASSUMED everyone else would vote for Reggie making the ballot and so each of them left him off thinking everyone else would include him... then it would seem this group of anonymous voters aren't seeing Miller as HoF material. There was an outcry about him missing from the nominations but I don't think it was big enough to cause anyone to rethink their votes. Not when the vote is anonymous in the first place....
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    All I can say to that is not even making the ballot calls into question whether Reggie will ever be in the HoF.

    Unless each voter ASSUMED everyone else would vote for Reggie making the ballot and so each of them left him off thinking everyone else would include him... then it would seem this group of anonymous voters aren't seeing Miller as HoF material. There was an outcry about him missing from the nominations but I don't think it was big enough to cause anyone to rethink their votes. Not when the vote is anonymous in the first place....
    They knew if he was on the ballot he'd get in. They didn't think he was worthy of being a "first ballot hall of famer" so they made sure he didn't get on the ballot. He'll be in the hall of fame within the next couple years. I'd bet my life on it.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    *Sigh*

    Not even going there again.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Still, RALPH SAMPSON?
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    But but but... Ralph Sampson made the SECOND all nba team once! And he won shiny awards in college. Sampson over Miller.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    This guy's stats only seem to regard Reggie's regular season and completely disregard Reggie's almost 8-point PPG jump in the playoffs and propelling his team to be a perennial playoff contender, not to mention his lengthy playoff performance resume. The playoffs were where Reggie earned his trip to the HOF. Reggie also had showmanship, something that very few players possess, and doesn't show up in the stat sheet. Players like Reggie bring viewership to the NBA, he instills interest, which is a huge factor. He hit shots that you are used to seeing players miss at times you expect them to miss them.

    I also want to point out that most of the "guys" who beat him to the NBA All-team and what-not did not receive a nearly season-long farewell tour of standing ovations in opposing arenas and a retirement ceremony like Reggie did. Reggie also played during a "golden age" of guards... look at the talent during his playtime. Of course there'd be a logjam, and the stat guys would get in first. Mitch Richmond had better stats --- does anyone in the NBA seriously believe Mitch was anywhere close to Reggie's level, especially in the playoffs? There's about 50 guys playing the NBA right now who have better "stats" than Reggie (like Danny Granger), and don't come anywhere close to Reggie's impact or are able to achieve Reggie's level of play in the playoffs. The Pacers reached the playoffs (and seriously contended) in 16 of Reggie's 18 years here and we've really never came close since he retired. That's tremendous. Seriously, the fans recognize what he did, stats be damned. The Detroit Pistons called a time-out just to give Reggie a standing O. Who gets that? Did Mitch Richmond get that amount of universal respect? How about The Glove? Tim Hardaway? Penny? Rod Strickland? Heck no. They retired without a peep and frankly (outside of Payton) had fairly forgettable careers despite putting up some stats.
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    This is why Ignore Thread was invented.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Stats are stats, as always. If it were simply stats that determine hall of fame eligibility, the inclusions would probably change, for the worse in my view, and other exclusions would likely occur.

    A well reasoned argument by the author of the article, but plainly he didn't know how the Pacers were built during Reggie's career, didn't understand the offense that the Pacers ran and the fact that Reggie was utilized both as a scoring threat and as a decoy due to his ability to constantly move long distances without the ball and force defenses to not just shift but actually move significantly to follow him, allowing other players to become more effective than a traditional offense would have allowed, and his coaches tended to understand that balanced attacks would be beneficial as opposed to simply designing the offense to be Reggie-centric despite his obviously being the best offensive weapon on the team.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    I simply posted this because I thought it was interesting to see the polar opposite POV. Did not mean to offend anyone and I apologize if I did

    P.S. FWIW, I do not agree with him, and think Reggie both deserves to bein the hall and will bein the hall one day.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Why did the writer conveniently leave out Reggie's stellar college career at UCLA? I'm thinking that the HOF committee did the same.

    He finished second in all-time scoring at UCLA behind only Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He still holds the UCLA single-season records for most league points, highest league scoring average, and most free throws. Reggie shot 43.9 percent from three-point range during his college career and 54.7 percent shooting overall from the field. He also holds several individual game records like scoring 33 points in one half.

    EDIT: While looking up some moments from Reggie's UCLA college career, I found this awesome rehash of a UCLA/Cal battle where Reggie sparked a come from behind victory and scored 26 points (without hitting a single 3 pointer). There's video of the entire game too!

    http://www.californiagoldenblogs.com...-of-the-streak

    EDIT #2: UCLA actually lost this game to Kevin Johnson's Cal team. Still cool to see Reggie in his college glory.
    Last edited by naptownmenace; 03-28-2011 at 12:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    There are some things I refuse to read and this is one of them.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    But but but... Ralph Sampson made the SECOND all nba team once! And he won shiny awards in college. Sampson over Miller.
    He also led his number one-ranked team in the land to a loss against an NAIA team. SAMPSON OVER MILLER!
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Who is Mr. Blott and why should I think he knows anything about anything? Just askin'.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    He also led his number one-ranked team in the land to a loss against an NAIA team. SAMPSON OVER MILLER!
    Hey, Chaminade scheduled Virginia for their tournament because they figured they could win, not so they would be embarassed by the #1 team in the land. Shame on the networks for not scheduling that on one of the three networks in existence at that time...

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    http://www.ratemyteachers.com/zachariah-blott/2215434-t

    http://media.photobucket.com/image/z...-Blott.jpg?o=1

    http://www.oocities.org/throughhike/bios.html

    So an Oregon unicorn-riding Eagle Scout high school journalism teacher is the end-all, be-all in NBA HOF decisions?

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Before I looked I would have guessed this was written by John Hollinger.

    A lot of obsessing over stats and awards and completely missing the big picture. Reggie Miller is a more significant figure in the eyes of basketball fans than a hundred players who put up better numbers, the numbers are not the point. It should be obvious to anyone.

    He should be in the hall, period.
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller: Not A Hall of Famer, Stop Complaining

    Reggie played 18 years, not 15, like is mentioned in the article?

    He makes the point he only was top 10 in points per game, one year. He could have scored more if he played on a bad team his whole career.

    When MJ retired the first time, he told Reggie to basically carry the torch as the best shooting guard in the game for that era. I think that means something.

    I know the per season numbers aren't what you'd expect, but the big moments, winning, and longevity have to count for something.

    Honestly, he's one of the greatest long range and clutch shooters of all time. He did it while winning a ton, over a long period of time.

    It's a no brainer that he's a HOFer, people forget how good he was, the farther removed we get from watching him.

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